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80's defense wasn't that tough by and large. Just different rules which allowed it to be a bit more physical but a lot of teams were just phoning it in on a night to night basis including teams like the Nuggets and Jazz which barely played any defense at all. In the playoffs it would get more physical as it does now and then some teams such as the Pistons took it all to another level which led to the flagrant foul rules getting added in after 1990.

kodo wrote:This is the first time I've heard the 80s being associated with defense.
80s was the opposite, mostly up & down, run & gun basketball. In 82 the average pace was 100.9.
This season the average pace is 99.3.

I assume it's mostly an end of 80s Pistons thing. Even then, I remember watching Michael Adams and Orlando Woolridge running up and down for Denver in 1990, scoring heavily and playing exactly no defence, with Woolridge ending up traded to...*drum roll*...Detroit, to try and improve their offence.

Cavsfansince84 wrote:80's defense wasn't that tough by and large. Just different rules which allowed it to be a bit more physical but a lot of teams were just phoning it in on a night to night basis including teams like the Nuggets and Jazz which barely played any defense at all. In the playoffs it would get more physical as it does now and then some teams such as the Pistons took it all to another level which led to the flagrant foul rules getting added in after 1990.

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Cavsfansince84 wrote:80's defense wasn't that tough by and large. Just different rules which allowed it to be a bit more physical but a lot of teams were just phoning it in on a night to night basis including teams like the Nuggets and Jazz which barely played any defense at all. In the playoffs it would get more physical as it does now and then some teams such as the Pistons took it all to another level which led to the flagrant foul rules getting added in after 1990.

For most of the 80s Jazz were pretty tough defensively...
Starting Malone, Stockton and particularly Mark Eaton made them so.

LewisnotMiller wrote:

Cavsfansince84 wrote:80's defense wasn't that tough by and large. Just different rules which allowed it to be a bit more physical but a lot of teams were just phoning it in on a night to night basis including teams like the Nuggets and Jazz which barely played any defense at all. In the playoffs it would get more physical as it does now and then some teams such as the Pistons took it all to another level which led to the flagrant foul rules getting added in after 1990.

Late 80s Jazz were pretty tough defensively...

I know that. Actually they were good earlier than I realized but there were a few coaches in the league who started running teams with the idea of being all about offense. Not just for wins but to try and sell tickets.

That's the thing. It wasn't so tough.

90s and early to mid 2000s defense was tough. Defense is more complex now, but the offensive player is so protected in today's NBA that defenders are so limited.

'80s?
In the East the defense was tougher. Pistons, Celtics, Bucks, Sixers, Hawks, Cavs, Knicks (late '80s), etc.
Also, their style of play on offense was usually slower pace and ball control, more in the paint/post.

In the West, you had a lot of running and gunning offensive teams: Showtime Lakers, Nuggets, Spurs, Suns, Jazz, etc. Lots of fastbreaks/transition points, more shooting from inside/outside, faster pace offense, etc.

But there were some tuff defensive teams in the West, too. Jazz, Rockets, Portland, etc.

JonFromVA wrote:Here's how 1980's defense worked against one of the more modern style players: Mark Price

Watch on YouTube

Nice transition work by Price against the middle of the road defense of Rick Pitino’s 1989 Knicks who left more gaps with their trapping defense than Mike Tyson’s front teeth Check out MJ’s stats against them in the playoffs that year!

Jason Kidd and Steve Nash did the same thing to teams in the “so called” toughest defensive era of the early to mid 2000’s, getting out in transition with a quick accurate passing PG has always yielded success, the problem was that somewhere in the mid 90’s coaches like Mike Fratello wanted to control tempo to ridiculous insufferable levels.

By the way also check Mark Price’s putrid stats against the Bulls in the 89’ playoffs, not that many gaps when you have MJ, Pippen and Grant covering defensive ground

jkvonny wrote:'80s?
In the East the defense was tougher. Pistons, Celtics, Bucks, Sixers, Hawks, Cavs, Knicks (late '80s), etc.
Also, their style of play on offense was usually slower pace and ball control, more in the paint/post.

In the West, you had a lot of running and gunning offensive teams: Showtime Lakers, Nuggets, Spurs, Suns, Jazz, etc. Lots of fastbreaks/transition points, more shooting from inside/outside, faster pace offense, etc.

But there were some tuff defensive teams in the West, too. Jazz, Rockets, Portland, etc.

Good point!

The West from 1980-87 was drastically different from the the West of 88-93 when teams like the Mavs, Rockets, Jazz, Spurs, Blazers, Sonics and Suns started playing a more rugged defensive minded approach that was very similar to their counterparts from the East

Showtime 80 wrote:

JonFromVA wrote:Here's how 1980's defense worked against one of the more modern style players: Mark Price

Watch on YouTube

Nice transition work by Price against the middle of the road defense of Rick Pitino’s 1989 Knicks who left more gaps with their trapping defense than Mike Tyson’s front teeth Check out MJ’s stats against them in the playoffs that year!

Jason Kidd and Steve Nash did the same thing to teams in the “so called” toughest defensive era of the early to mid 2000’s, getting out in transition with a quick accurate passing PG has always yielded success, the problem was that somewhere in the mid 90’s coaches like Mike Fratello wanted to control tempo to ridiculous insufferable levels.

By the way also check Mark Price’s putrid stats against the Bulls in the 89’ playoffs, not that many gaps when you have MJ, Pippen and Grant covering defensive ground

Things went downhill for Price and the Cavs in 1989 after Rick Mahorn smashed him in the face with an elbow. He was also playing through a groin injury when the playoffs came around.

So, yeah, physical play by some specific teams and players certainly had an impact on the 80's, and smaller/lighter players are advantaged by the more free flowing modern game; but Price did still manage to still rise to the occasion from time to time, even against the Bulls' fabled defense:



Albeit I suppose when people remember the Bulls defense of that era, they're not thinking so much about BJ Armstrong, Rodney McCray, Stacey King, Trent Tucker, Will Perdue, and Corey Williams who all got significant minutes in that game.

cupcakesnake wrote:Try not using ppg to determine if offense was good. Pace can be high, which leads to more possessions, which leads to more points, even if teams are struggling to score on a possession by possession basis.

Use offensive rating. It's how many points are scored per 100 possessions, which erases pace from the equation for you.

Also... 80s defenses weren't "so" tough. What makes you think they were tough?
You had the Bucks and Celtics, the Jazz coming in the second half of the decade with Mark Eaton. Then the Bad Boy Pistons emerge and pseudo-revolutionize defense at the very very end of the 80s but their best defensive team was 1990.

In the 90s really big defenses start ramping things up with frontcourts around Ewing, Hakeem, and Robinson... but if you're looking for the best era of defensive basketball, it's the early 2000s. Offensive rating is the lowest from 1998 to 2007.

Yep, 2000s defense was very tough. I think you could argue that defense today is the toughest but players are better shooters and teams recognised the TS% efficiency of outside shots were far higher than interior shots not within 3-feet.

It's difficult to understand defense when bad shooting on bad defense looks better than good shooting on good defense..

The rules that weakened defense are the protecting shooter rules, makes contests less aggressive.

Mark Price was a boss. Shoutout to all them Ga Tech guards 'cept Crittenton.

zimpy27 wrote:

cupcakesnake wrote:Try not using ppg to determine if offense was good. Pace can be high, which leads to more possessions, which leads to more points, even if teams are struggling to score on a possession by possession basis.

Use offensive rating. It's how many points are scored per 100 possessions, which erases pace from the equation for you.

Also... 80s defenses weren't "so" tough. What makes you think they were tough?
You had the Bucks and Celtics, the Jazz coming in the second half of the decade with Mark Eaton. Then the Bad Boy Pistons emerge and pseudo-revolutionize defense at the very very end of the 80s but their best defensive team was 1990.

In the 90s really big defenses start ramping things up with frontcourts around Ewing, Hakeem, and Robinson... but if you're looking for the best era of defensive basketball, it's the early 2000s. Offensive rating is the lowest from 1998 to 2007.

Yep, 2000s defense was very tough. I think you could argue that defense today is the toughest but players are better shooters and teams recognised the TS% efficiency of outside shots were far higher than interior shots not within 3-feet.

It's difficult to understand defense when bad shooting on bad defense looks better than good shooting on good defense..

Offenses and defenses keep evolving, but there's no singular defensive system to handle all situations. That so many contenders have just gone back to drop is an indication of how hard it's gotten to stop modern offenses.

JonFromVA wrote:

zimpy27 wrote:

cupcakesnake wrote:Try not using ppg to determine if offense was good. Pace can be high, which leads to more possessions, which leads to more points, even if teams are struggling to score on a possession by possession basis.

Use offensive rating. It's how many points are scored per 100 possessions, which erases pace from the equation for you.

Also... 80s defenses weren't "so" tough. What makes you think they were tough?
You had the Bucks and Celtics, the Jazz coming in the second half of the decade with Mark Eaton. Then the Bad Boy Pistons emerge and pseudo-revolutionize defense at the very very end of the 80s but their best defensive team was 1990.

In the 90s really big defenses start ramping things up with frontcourts around Ewing, Hakeem, and Robinson... but if you're looking for the best era of defensive basketball, it's the early 2000s. Offensive rating is the lowest from 1998 to 2007.

Yep, 2000s defense was very tough. I think you could argue that defense today is the toughest but players are better shooters and teams recognised the TS% efficiency of outside shots were far higher than interior shots not within 3-feet.

It's difficult to understand defense when bad shooting on bad defense looks better than good shooting on good defense..

Offenses and defenses keep evolving, but there's no singular defensive system to handle all situations. That so many contenders have just gone back to drop is an indication of how hard it's gotten to stop modern offenses.

Yeah the quality of the strategies on offense have really expanded. I think part of it is that head coaches don't really pull all the strings now, you have assistants working on offense and defense separately. Sometimes multiple strategies under different assistants that the coach can use.

I'm impressed with the defense trying to keep up, I definitely think iron sharpens iron in this case.

JonFromVA wrote:

zimpy27 wrote:

cupcakesnake wrote:Try not using ppg to determine if offense was good. Pace can be high, which leads to more possessions, which leads to more points, even if teams are struggling to score on a possession by possession basis.

Use offensive rating. It's how many points are scored per 100 possessions, which erases pace from the equation for you.

Also... 80s defenses weren't "so" tough. What makes you think they were tough?
You had the Bucks and Celtics, the Jazz coming in the second half of the decade with Mark Eaton. Then the Bad Boy Pistons emerge and pseudo-revolutionize defense at the very very end of the 80s but their best defensive team was 1990.

In the 90s really big defenses start ramping things up with frontcourts around Ewing, Hakeem, and Robinson... but if you're looking for the best era of defensive basketball, it's the early 2000s. Offensive rating is the lowest from 1998 to 2007.

Yep, 2000s defense was very tough. I think you could argue that defense today is the toughest but players are better shooters and teams recognised the TS% efficiency of outside shots were far higher than interior shots not within 3-feet.

It's difficult to understand defense when bad shooting on bad defense looks better than good shooting on good defense..

Offenses and defenses keep evolving, but there's no singular defensive system to handle all situations. That so many contenders have just gone back to drop is an indication of how hard it's gotten to stop modern offenses.

When you neuter defenses the way the NBA has done by consistently changing rules in favor of offense for the last 25+ years it’s a shock that the average ppg is not 120+! Pathetic what they have done to the NBA

JonFromVA wrote:

Showtime 80 wrote:

JonFromVA wrote:Here's how 1980's defense worked against one of the more modern style players: Mark Price

Watch on YouTube

Nice transition work by Price against the middle of the road defense of Rick Pitino’s 1989 Knicks who left more gaps with their trapping defense than Mike Tyson’s front teeth Check out MJ’s stats against them in the playoffs that year!

Jason Kidd and Steve Nash did the same thing to teams in the “so called” toughest defensive era of the early to mid 2000’s, getting out in transition with a quick accurate passing PG has always yielded success, the problem was that somewhere in the mid 90’s coaches like Mike Fratello wanted to control tempo to ridiculous insufferable levels.

By the way also check Mark Price’s putrid stats against the Bulls in the 89’ playoffs, not that many gaps when you have MJ, Pippen and Grant covering defensive ground

Things went downhill for Price and the Cavs in 1989 after Rick Mahorn smashed him in the face with an elbow. He was also playing through a groin injury when the playoffs came around.

So, yeah, physical play by some specific teams and players certainly had an impact on the 80's, and smaller/lighter players are advantaged by the more free flowing modern game; but Price did still manage to still rise to the occasion from time to time, even against the Bulls' fabled defense:

Watch on YouTube

Albeit I suppose when people remember the Bulls defense of that era, they're not thinking so much about BJ Armstrong, Rodney McCray, Stacey King, Trent Tucker, Will Perdue, and Corey Williams who all got significant minutes in that game.

Oh Mark Price was a heck of a player no doubt about it! Could’ve had at an all-time career but like his counterparts of the early 90’s in KJ and Tim Hardaway injuries derailed his progression

There is no point in even explaining this. It wasn't a real question, he thought it was a rhetorical question.

And there weren't flagrant fouls as that wasn't even a rule yet.

Current young person tells past young person they didn't know what they were watching.

The scariest defenses I've seen other than the 90s bulls are 2005 pistons and 2008 celtics. The first two spurs defenses with David Robinson + Duncan were pretty crazy too. I can't comment on 80s defenses as I've only seen highlights.

Showtime 80 wrote:

JonFromVA wrote:

zimpy27 wrote:

Yep, 2000s defense was very tough. I think you could argue that defense today is the toughest but players are better shooters and teams recognised the TS% efficiency of outside shots were far higher than interior shots not within 3-feet.

It's difficult to understand defense when bad shooting on bad defense looks better than good shooting on good defense..

Offenses and defenses keep evolving, but there's no singular defensive system to handle all situations. That so many contenders have just gone back to drop is an indication of how hard it's gotten to stop modern offenses.

When you neuter defenses the way the NBA has done by consistently changing rules in favor of offense for the last 25+ years it’s a shock that the average ppg is not 120+! Pathetic what they have done to the NBA

I don't see it that way at all. When the Pistons started regularly holding other teams under 70 pts, the league needed a push. Maybe clever players and coaches would have eventually figured it out, but defensive systems had gotten so ahead of offensive systems the NBA had to step in and open the game back up.

The legalization of zone defenses had the side effect of making passing and spacing more important and yet even the Warrior's "death lineup" was born out of desperation on a suggestion from an assistant when the W's were down 2 to 1 to the Cavs in the 2015 Finals. This is like 12 years after the rule changes and an NBA head coach of a contender is just starting to accept that going smaller with passers and shooters who can switch on D just might be a good thing.

Rest assured if the NBA determines that offense has gotten too far ahead of the defense to the detriment of the game, they will tweak things again; but it's going to have to get really out of control. After all, every fan base wants a star offensive player to cheer for.

JonFromVA wrote:I don't see it that way at all. When the Pistons started regularly holding other teams under 70 pts, the league needed a push. Maybe clever players and coaches would have eventually figured it out, but defensive systems had gotten so ahead of offensive systems the NBA had to step in and open the game back up.

I mean, teams needed to stop sucking. Their roster construction was abysmal. And they were averaging 14.9 3PA/g in the 03-04 season, which wasn't helping them attack. Teams were still very heavily rooted in simplistic iso defense with one star. It was still a fairly big deal to have a stretch 4. Robert Horry's impact on the Lakers was a good example, as it had been on the Rockets. Dragging one more defender away from the paint to open the interior for the big guy. Small forward with a 3, 2 guard with a 3, point guard who could shoot some. But it was still, like, I don't want to say "revolutionary" but it was very much not the norm.

NBA teams were getting away with fielding BS rosters and offering up crap offense that wasn't fun to watch. Witness Iverson's Sixers. That was horrible basketball. So it really wasn't super surprising that teams were bad on O. Teams like the Lakers, the Kings, the Mavs... they weren't having huge trouble posting quality offense.

The era wasn't that brutal in terms of defense so much as it was a horrid time of lazy, poor roster building. Defense had also improved, don't get me wrong, but there's more to the story. Like, everyone thought the model was "one offensive star and then some supporting cast," but that was always a stupid model. And that's why teams like the Rockets or the Magic or the Hornets and so forth weren't that good.