Patrick Williams' Dunking Issues

[Ballerkingn23]

Hey the kid is just not mentality strong. I wonder if he ever used a sports therapist to see if there's some blockage on why he's so timid. Because the kid has a world of potential, so not sure what's really stopping him but whats between his ears.

Yes, but also his game just looks fundamentally lost. No go-to moves, awkward foot work, hitch in his slow release shot. Comparing his skill highlights in 2020 to now, it’s like watching 2 entirely different human beings.

Because well not bec imo I think its because he's always hurt and not able to work on his game and prb develops hitches to work around various injuries and they stick so he needs to reprogram his brain and he needs to also have a full off season that he can just work on his game. The clock is ticking and idk if there is much more we'll see from him. This could be who he is, but I hope i'm wrong.

[Dan Z]

You're probably right, but he has other issues beyond missing dunks.

This is his 5th season in the NBA. At this point he probably is who he is.

Even if he took a leap forward how much better do you think he'll be?

[MrSparkle]

Hey the kid is just not mentality strong. I wonder if he ever used a sports therapist to see if there's some blockage on why he's so timid. Because the kid has a world of potential, so not sure what's really stopping him but whats between his ears.

Yes, but also his game just looks fundamentally lost. No go-to moves, awkward foot work, hitch in his slow release shot. Comparing his skill highlights in 2020 to now, it’s like watching 2 entirely different human beings.

Because well not bec imo I think its because he's always hurt and not able to work on his game and prb develops hitches to work around various injuries and they stick so he needs to reprogram his brain and he needs to also have a full off season that he can just work on his game. The clock is ticking and idk if there is much more we'll see from him. This could be who he is, but I hope i'm wrong.

Yeah. Lonzo demonstrated one of the most long-shot comebacks ever, with almost 3y off, and he enters games and helps despite a lot of rust.

I guess it’s disappointing to see he’s such a low IQ player. If he’s not taking an open shot (3-7x a game) or taking an iso possession (0-2x a game?), he’s not doing anything productive. Just sad to see this guy won a $90M contract, somehow.

[GoBlue72391]

For me the bigger issue with the weight gain / sluggishness isn't missing dunks, it's that he can be just bad on D. Last night was a showcase, all the Pacers were getting by him regardless of size. 32 year old TJ McConnell blew by him at will. Bigger guys like Siakam and Toppin scored over him easily. Pacers had a layup line all game, and Patrick didn't help stop that even though that's his role on the team.

Even lowering expectations of our #4 pick to just a 3&D guy, he hasn't been exceptional on the D component.
There aren't great hard stats for D, but the argument for guys on D is that you're winning even though they're not scoring or rebounding much. That hasn't been the case for Patrick, his +/- relative to the rest of the team has been bottom for the last 3 years.

2025: 17th
2024: 11th
2023: 18th

Maybe he can be a positive on another roster, but with this one and at least with Vuc as his frontcourt partner, it's been a disaster defensively.

Even with the weight gain people like Nembhard just muscled him out of the way on drives.

6'7" 215 lbs Patrick Williams got bullied by 6'5" 190 lbs Andrew Nembhard

Wasn't that his weight as a rookie? He's gotta be pushing 235 at least now.

[GoBlue72391]

I just went on the Wayback Machine and checked, as a rookie Pat was listed at 6-8/227. Right now he's listed at 6-8/215. For good measure I also checked Florida State's roster the year he was there and he was listed at 6-8/225.

I don't know how accurate those numbers are, but there's absolutely no chance that Pat is somehow 12 pounds lighter now than he was as a rookie. A quick comparison of photos now compared to his rookie year makes that obvious, not to mention the noticeable loss of athleticism.

He's fat. Not normal guy fat, but fat for an NBA wing. He hasn't quite reached THT or Kenneth Lofton Jr. levels, but he needs to get back to the same body he had as a rookie.

[GoBlue72391]

Hey the kid is just not mentality strong. I wonder if he ever used a sports therapist to see if there's some blockage on why he's so timid. Because the kid has a world of potential, so not sure what's really stopping him but whats between his ears.

Sometimes he does try to be aggressive, and it usually ends in disaster. He's so timid because he knows that when he does try something out of his comfort zone it's clear he's just not capable of doing those things on anything near a consistent basis.

He's timid because he has to be.

[jordanwilliams6]

He’s just a complete nothing player. I’ve soured on him entirely this season.

I still held hope that he was going to be an elite 3 & D player. A guy that could give you 13-15 points on great shooting. He’s almost worse now than what he was in his rookie season.

Get rid of him.

[2weekswithpay]

The Bulls training camp roster has Pat listed at 6'7 231. On the opening night roster he's at 6'8 235.

[drosestruts]

Pat is

- losing his athleticism
- putting on weight that doesn't seem to be helping his game
- has no left hand


Torrey Craig has only played 20+ minutes twice this season. In this two games he's averaging 16, 5, 2 with 60/57/50 (ew) shooting splits. His overall TS% in all games this season is 66%

Williams plays 27 minutes a nights and average 10/4/2 with 39/37/83 shooting splits. With a TS% of 53%


There's lot of talk on this board about tanking vs not tanking or whatever. Playing Patrick Williams is borderline a clear-cut case of Billy trying to tank at this point.

The Bulls are a +0.2 when Williams is on the bench

The Bulls are a -7.5 when Williams is on the court


While I've advocated for patience with Williams, I've equally advocated to end entitlement minutes. Pat's entitlement minutes are only getting worse.

We need to make a change to the starting lineup.

Ball/White/LaVine/Craig/Vucevic should be the starting 5

I'd also accept Giddey/White/LaVine/Craig/Vuc which is a +21 in 13 minutes on the season

Getting benched seems to have helped De'Andre Hunter

[ShouldaPaidBG]

Well, Bulls prospects declining out to inexplicable levels at 4-6y has happened so regularly, that I'm OK believing whatever conspiracy theory anybody's got.

Chandler - Y5 could barely crack Skiles' rotation, often coming off the bench for Sweetney or Othella!! Traded for a retiring PJ Brown (Meanwhile CP3 helped Chandler become an all-star)

Kirk - From Stockton 2.0, to dumped with a FRP for cap space.

Gordon - From first rookie ever to win 6MOY to out the league (tbf, mental health).

Deng - Promising rookie year until the wrist, then some ups and downs..good y3, regressions in y4-6... finally Thibs made him that 2x all-star (48 mpg program) before he became a complete shell of a player at 30yo.

Tyrus - Highlight dunked all over the Heat into a straight decline out the league after his trade.

Rose with an asterisk

Lauri - Seemed like a straight decline every season until he found his 3P% in y4... finally broke out in Utah.

Wendell - Looked like a promising defender with offensive upside, but it just kept getting worse until he became solid in Orlando, literally overnight.

Coby - More 30+ point games in his rookie year than the next few. That S3-4 stretch was so brutal the kid got $12M on an open market. Back to regressing, after a solid y5.

And of course Patrick... who IMO looked very good for a rookie. Had some huge games against Kawhi, Lebron. He looks like he's barely able to move.

Are these guys eating Giordano's for breakfast, practicing on the most crooked concrete in Chicago, and staying up drinking and smoking on Hubbard every night? Aside for Jimmy and Taj (who both debuted in NBA late in age), seems like every Bulls pick since the 90s has had a short-lived NBA prime. (Oh and Chandler... 3guys).

Everyone's 3P shooting percentages fluctuates, ankle/foot/knee/wrist surgeries galore, weight/conditioning problems... It's crazy.

Just like the Bears, it starts at the top.

[ImSlower]

It was a huge reach and gamble to draft him with our best pick since Rose, albeit in a confusing draft. He wasn't very good in college but showed some potential. I get it. we looked at his long arms and huge hands and thought "Kawhi! Kawhi!"

Then he wasn't very good his rookie year. But he had potential. Or his sophomore and onward seasons. But he has potential! He has long arms!

Then through bungling after bungling from our front office, this 3rd string contributor who was somehow drafted 4th in the world gets a five *year* extension. He isn't financially crippling the Bulls, but we've been hoping he suddenly becomes a star for five years.

Pat Williams is not an NBA starter. He's barely a rotational player. The Vucevic trade was a catastrophe for this organization, but they've based so much of their optimism on "We have a future star in Pat Williams, just wait" that it's a major reason we're in an absolutely abysmal place in the league. I will do an Irish jig down main street in my town the day he's finally not a Bull.

[Stratmaster]

I think we can analyze it all we want and make excuses for him (not that the OP was doing that... just that past discussions have).

He just isn't very good. Relatively speaking to NBA players of course.

He wasn't even good in college. He was inconsistent in summer league play.

He just isn't an NBA quality player. How the hell the Bulls were convinced to draft him where they did is beyond comprehension.

[GoBlue72391]

The Bulls training camp roster has Pat listed at 6'7 231. On the opening night roster he's at 6'8 235.

Good find. Those are the real numbers. 235 was my guess. That's at least 15 pounds too much IMO.

Side note: THT at 257 is otherworldly.

[dougthonus]

The Bulls training camp roster has Pat listed at 6'7 231. On the opening night roster he's at 6'8 235.

Good find. Those are the real numbers. 235 was my guess. That's at least 15 pounds too much IMO.

Side note: THT at 257 is otherworldly.

Yep, those numbers make sense.

[GoBlue72391]

Pat is

- losing his athleticism
- putting on weight that doesn't seem to be helping his game
- has no left hand


Torrey Craig has only played 20+ minutes twice this season. In this two games he's averaging 16, 5, 2 with 60/57/50 (ew) shooting splits. His overall TS% in all games this season is 66%

Williams plays 27 minutes a nights and average 10/4/2 with 39/37/83 shooting splits. With a TS% of 53%


There's lot of talk on this board about tanking vs not tanking or whatever. Playing Patrick Williams is borderline a clear-cut case of Billy trying to tank at this point.

The Bulls are a +0.2 when Williams is on the bench

The Bulls are a -7.5 when Williams is on the court


While I've advocated for patience with Williams, I've equally advocated to end entitlement minutes. Pat's entitlement minutes are only getting worse.

We need to make a change to the starting lineup.

Ball/White/LaVine/Craig/Vucevic should be the starting 5

I'd also accept Giddey/White/LaVine/Craig/Vuc which is a +21 in 13 minutes on the season

Getting benched seems to have helped De'Andre Hunter

Agreed, but Pat's been benched a few times before and it's never had any lasting effect in terms of lighting a fire or whatever.

[kodo]

Definitely seems heavier than when this happened, 2 years ago.

Watch on YouTube

[Guru]

This is a weird thread. Analyzing 13 pounds like it matters when you are 6'7

He will be fine.

[GoBlue72391]

This is a weird thread. Analyzing 13 pounds like it matters when you are 6'7

He will be fine.

It's weirder to pretend like it doesn't matter when half the time the dude can't even get up high enough over the rim to dunk the ball. He's noticeably fatter. It matters because it's negatively affecting his game.

He won't be fine unless he changes his body or his game drastically. Ideally both.

Also: 215 to 235 is 20 pounds, not 13. And 20 pounds is a big difference, basketball or otherwise.

[vxmike]

He just simply regress. Looks like he's mentally fatigue. No one to blame by himself, he needs to figure it out on his own, or he might get salary dumped near the end of his current contract, get waived by the team that acquire him, and that would be his last NBA contract.

I think he’ll be a guy who just disappears after his $90m contract concludes.

[MrSparkle]

The Bulls training camp roster has Pat listed at 6'7 231. On the opening night roster he's at 6'8 235.

Good find. Those are the real numbers. 235 was my guess. That's at least 15 pounds too much IMO.

Side note: THT at 257 is otherworldly.

Coby is at 210. More than Zach and Lonzo.

Our 2 struggling prospects both seem overweight.