Sweater Vest Thread #35: Magic 111 - Hornets 104

[Skybox]

AB
Paolo
Franz

See - now you're skewing your own statistics...Franz and Paolo were the obvious MVPs and AB had a very very good game for AB...him getting vest votes is like voting for Rudy as the Notre Dame MVP. We're all very happy for AB, but that doesn't make him the prime guy that pulled the team to victory.

Check around the room, it's not just me rewarding the kid

He deserves recognition...but he clearly wasn't THE most important contributor. Great night for AB is less than a bad night for Paolo & Franz...being the X factor doesn't make you the team MVP...it makes you a pleasant surprise.

[BadMofoPimp]

See - now you're skewing your own statistics...Franz and Paolo were the obvious MVPs and AB had a very very good game for AB...him getting vest votes is like voting for Rudy as the Notre Dame MVP. We're all very happy for AB, but that doesn't make him the prime guy that pulled the team to victory.

Check around the room, it's not just me rewarding the kid

He deserves recognition...but he clearly wasn't THE most important contributor. Great night for AB is less than a bad night for Paolo & Franz...being the X factor doesn't make you the team MVP...it makes you a pleasant surprise.

Just another case of AB fans voting for their preferred player regardless if others led the team to victory.

[JoshuaPotter]

AB
Paolo
Franz

I will go with this. I could be convinced that Harris "deserves" a lot for making 2 points and being a menace on defense. And by gosh he should be, I think he has logged some of the fewest minutes played.

Houstan consistent contribution should also be worthy of mention.

Before they get on the plane, everyone not named Isaac should have a milkshake.

[JoshuaPotter]

Check around the room, it's not just me rewarding the kid

He deserves recognition...but he clearly wasn't THE most important contributor. Great night for AB is less than a bad night for Paolo & Franz...being the X factor doesn't make you the team MVP...it makes you a pleasant surprise.

Just another case of AB fans voting for their preferred player regardless if others led the team to victory.

But Black is proving you wrong?

[JoshuaPotter]

See - now you're skewing your own statistics...Franz and Paolo were the obvious MVPs and AB had a very very good game for AB...him getting vest votes is like voting for Rudy as the Notre Dame MVP. We're all very happy for AB, but that doesn't make him the prime guy that pulled the team to victory.

Check around the room, it's not just me rewarding the kid

He deserves recognition...but he clearly wasn't THE most important contributor. Great night for AB is less than a bad night for Paolo & Franz...being the X factor doesn't make you the team MVP...it makes you a pleasant surprise.

Skybox, this is sweater vests, not team MVP voting.

Besides, let the kid have it. Will make your trade machine go bbrr with all the additional trade options Black playing good opens up.

"Justification" Black 3rd in vest points.

[Skybox]

Check around the room, it's not just me rewarding the kid

He deserves recognition...but he clearly wasn't THE most important contributor. Great night for AB is less than a bad night for Paolo & Franz...being the X factor doesn't make you the team MVP...it makes you a pleasant surprise.

Skybox, this is sweater vests, not team MVP voting.

Besides, let the kid have it. Will make your trade machine go bbrr with all the additional trade options Black playing good opens up.

"Justification" Black 3rd in vest points.

Thanks for explaining...now go read the other thread that I'm referring to where there is a discussion as to the value of Sweater Vest votes vs. other analytics. eyriq makes a pretty good case until he blows it up with his own vote. AB was great - but HIS "great" isn't that great. Certainly not the #1 guy that carried the team to victory - which is the point if you're going to try to use it as something meaningful for analysis/comparison.

I'm not hating AB or Sweater vest voting...it SHOULD be for fun - but don't try to make it more analytically meaningful than it is

[JoshuaPotter]

He deserves recognition...but he clearly wasn't THE most important contributor. Great night for AB is less than a bad night for Paolo & Franz...being the X factor doesn't make you the team MVP...it makes you a pleasant surprise.

Skybox, this is sweater vests, not team MVP voting.

Besides, let the kid have it. Will make your trade machine go bbrr with all the additional trade options Black playing good opens up.

"Justification" Black 3rd in vest points.

Thanks for explaining...now go read the other thread that I'm referring to where there is a discussion as to the value of Sweater Vest votes vs. other analytics. eyriq makes a pretty good case until he blows it up with his own vote. AB was great - but HIS "great" isn't that great. Certainly not the #1 guy that carried the team to victory - which is the point if you're going to try to use it as something meaningful for analysis/comparison.

I'm not hating AB or Sweater vest voting...it SHOULD be for fun - but don't try to make it more analytically meaningful than it is

Alright, in the context of this thread.

If Black, Franz, or Paolo don't have the game we have last night. We lose.

Paolo + Black were your 1 / 2 punches this game. Franz put balls in hole for sure, but analytically he was worse.

So realistically. Paolo or Black is the choice. Paolo has the lead.

what is this about?

[BadMofoPimp]

He deserves recognition...but he clearly wasn't THE most important contributor. Great night for AB is less than a bad night for Paolo & Franz...being the X factor doesn't make you the team MVP...it makes you a pleasant surprise.

Just another case of AB fans voting for their preferred player regardless if others led the team to victory.

But Black is proving you wrong?

He is proving me wrong but he didn't lead the team to victory. Just solid role playing. Hope he gets consistent.

[JoshuaPotter]

Just another case of AB fans voting for their preferred player regardless if others led the team to victory.

But Black is proving you wrong?

He is proving me wrong but he didn't lead the team to victory. Just solid role playing. Hope he gets consistent.

Ok, I have been out for a couple weeks. Sweater vests is about leading the team to victory or having what we perceive as most meaningful impact? Both?

Because if its either i'm not sure I have been playing "the home game" correctly.

[yoyojw17]

He deserves recognition...but he clearly wasn't THE most important contributor. Great night for AB is less than a bad night for Paolo & Franz...being the X factor doesn't make you the team MVP...it makes you a pleasant surprise.

Just another case of AB fans voting for their preferred player regardless if others led the team to victory.

But Black is proving you wrong?

The guy played 30 minutes.... and was plus 17.... looks like he was a heavy factor in our 7 point win.... so yes... he deserves his flowers.

There might be a point that people will realize why we drafted him... why faith was put in his development.... and why he was probably taken off the table in trade talks... because i do believe that trades were not done because the Magic had certain assets they were not willing to part with.

The mere fact that we win pretty much every game when Black plays well.... is a a testament to how important he is to the future success of the team. The consistency of that confidence and success is the issue. But hey... he's only 21. as time goes by, confidence grows... skills grow... consistency becomes more frequent and that will lead to all kinds of successes. They might rather bank on their belief in his development... than want to make a hasty decision and get something that they "think will fit"

P.s. for those that were out on Black.... I personally believe that he will prove you'll wrong... BUT... will welcome you'll onto the train... because at the end of the day... WE ARE ALL FANS of the Magic and want the best for them, no matter if our points of view may differ at times... or all the time. haha

[JoshuaPotter]

Just another case of AB fans voting for their preferred player regardless if others led the team to victory.

But Black is proving you wrong?

The guy played 30 minutes.... and was plus 17.... looks like he was a heavy factor in our 7 point win.... so yes... he deserves his flowers.

There might be a point that people will realize why we drafted him... why faith was put in his development.... and why he was probably taken off the table in trade talks... because i do believe that trades were not done because the Magic had certain assets they were not willing to part with.

The mere fact that we win pretty much every game when Black plays well.... is a a testament to how important he is to the future success of the team. The consistency of that confidence and success is the issue. But hey... he's only 21. as time goes by, confidence grows... skills grow... consistency becomes more frequent and that will lead to all kinds of successes. They might rather bank on their belief in his development... than want to make a hasty decision and get something that they "think will fit"

P.s. for those that were out on Black.... I personally believe that he will prove you'll wrong... BUT... will welcome you'll onto the train... because at the end of the day... WE ARE ALL FANS of the Magic and want the best for them, no matter if our points of view may differ at times... or all the time. haha

I think thats the thing with me, I am honest in my critique of him being as much a contributor to our losses then our wins. Metrics back my statement up, so I do not think there is any bias there.

At the same time, I said it before the trade deadline, I said it after the tread deadline. If we want to win, someone on the roster HAS to put the ball in the hole besides Franz + Paolo. Right now, its an oddball combination of limited Houstan and Black having more of a green light to shoot.

We put a decent shooting corpse (sorry Cojo I like you! I promise!) who knows how to play PG in the starting lineup, and that unit gets in line, Black comes in, gels well in the rotation and finishes the game. It's like we are watching the beginning games of the season all over again.

I hope Black keeps it up, he has a high uphill battle. Knightro said it best, kids that start off with his usage rate typically is an indicator that it doesn't bode well for him. So, for him to live up to my expectation as something more then 3&D he has a very high uphill.

Yet, we are seeing him cut, shoot 3s, pass, get to the free throw line, fight for boards all with more confidence. Let's see where it goes. He is now past due for a dunce cap.

[magik9113]

P5
Franz
AB

Gary and Caleb deserve something too but it is what it is!

[yoyojw17]

But Black is proving you wrong?

The guy played 30 minutes.... and was plus 17.... looks like he was a heavy factor in our 7 point win.... so yes... he deserves his flowers.

There might be a point that people will realize why we drafted him... why faith was put in his development.... and why he was probably taken off the table in trade talks... because i do believe that trades were not done because the Magic had certain assets they were not willing to part with.

The mere fact that we win pretty much every game when Black plays well.... is a a testament to how important he is to the future success of the team. The consistency of that confidence and success is the issue. But hey... he's only 21. as time goes by, confidence grows... skills grow... consistency becomes more frequent and that will lead to all kinds of successes. They might rather bank on their belief in his development... than want to make a hasty decision and get something that they "think will fit"

P.s. for those that were out on Black.... I personally believe that he will prove you'll wrong... BUT... will welcome you'll onto the train... because at the end of the day... WE ARE ALL FANS of the Magic and want the best for them, no matter if our points of view may differ at times... or all the time. haha

I think thats the thing with me, I am honest in my critique of him being as much a contributor to our losses then our wins. Metrics back my statement up, so I do not think there is any bias there.

At the same time, I said it before the trade deadline, I said it after the tread deadline. If we want to win, someone on the roster HAS to put the ball in the hole besides Franz + Paolo. Right now, its an oddball combination of limited Houstan and Black having more of a green light to shoot.

We put a decent shooting corpse (sorry Cojo I like you! I promise!) who knows how to play PG in the starting lineup, and that unit gets in line, Black comes in, gels well in the rotation and finishes the game. It's like we are watching the beginning games of the season all over again.

I hope Black keeps it up, he has a high uphill battle. Knightro said it best, kids that start off with his usage rate typically is an indicator that it doesn't bode well for him. So, for him to live up to my expectation as something more then 3&D he has a very high uphill.

Yet, we are seeing him cut, shoot 3s, pass, get to the free throw line, fight for boards all with more confidence. Let's see where it goes. He is now past due for a dunce cap.

I think it's the new chin hair he's growing. haha

but yup... agreed. Personally I thin they wanted to mitigate too much chaos last season and managed the player contributions as much as possible because there are soooooo many young players growing at the same time.... and Paolo and Franz were the obvious focus.... along with the growth of suggs as well. so.... Black... shoot when open.... dribble only if you have to. haha.

now we are seeing the shift to .... WE NEED YOU TO BE AGGRESSIVE. and that doesn't just show with a flick of the switch and we are slowly seeing that confidence come to fruition. Suggs was supposed to be the PG glue for this team this season... but so much got derailed by injuries.

I truly believe that the KCP contract will be shifted to black in 2 years when he resigns... and most likely the starting position if not sooner. a Black/Suggs backcourt is most likely what is envisioned for the future... and that has the potential to be devastating in this league as the continue to grow.

[BadMofoPimp]

Note that Black had ZERO assists in 30 minutes of play but also had ZERO turnovers. He doesn't create for others well as I would like from a PG. Maybe he will be KCP's replacement in a year or two.

[VFX]

Note that Black had ZERO assists in 30 minutes of play but also had ZERO turnovers. He doesn't create for others well as I would like from a PG. Maybe he will be KCP's replacement in a year or two.

This is what I was thinking during the game.

He isn’t a point guard. He’s a shooting guard in this system. Not sure how I square that with Jalen Suggs getting paid and being instrumental to the defense.

They also just paid KCP, so it makes even less sense and they have even less incentive to move Suggs back to where he was playing at a high level last season.

It’s good that AB isn’t a bust. Not sure what to make of the current and future rotation based on this information though. Do I trust the FO to do the correct thing and acquire a starting level point guard knowing this? Not a chance. Cole and Suggs getting healthy means what for Black? Oh and it also means Jett Howard is gone.

[Bergmaniac]

Paolo
AB
Gary

Franz was too inefficient and a bit too selfish at times for my liking, his efficiency overall looked not terrible in box score, but it was padded by the last minute's FTs.

[JoshuaPotter]

Note that Black had ZERO assists in 30 minutes of play but also had ZERO turnovers. He doesn't create for others well as I would like from a PG. Maybe he will be KCP's replacement in a year or two.

This is what I was thinking during the game.

He isn’t a point guard. He’s a shooting guard in this system. Not sure how I square that with Jalen Suggs getting paid and being instrumental to the defense.

They also just paid KCP, so it makes even less sense and they have even less incentive to move Suggs back to where he was playing at a high level last season.

It’s good that AB isn’t a bust. Not sure what to make of the current and future rotation based on this information though. Do I trust the FO to do the correct thing and acquire a starting level point guard knowing this? Not a chance. Cole and Suggs getting healthy means what for Black? Oh and it also means Jett Howard is gone.

We agree on the principle of needing a PG. Otherwise. So?

Cojo was never really known for assists but he seems to have more of a PG impact then "Fultz" (waits for the mob) ever did.

To an extent Paolo + Franz need a PG enough to loosen the valve and open things up. Get everyone in a favorable position to get rhythm rather then it just being the Paolo / Franz ISO show the entire game.

For the last time. I personally have backed off the idea of Black being a PG from "sure thing" to "I don't know." This wasn't the game where I realized it. I have been this way for a bit.

The only PG on the roster as far as I can tell is Cojo and because he seems to set the table well enough for us to get into a rhythm I am not backing off that he overstates the point you are trying to make. Which is agreeable.

I'm gonna defend the AB flowers though. Only reasonable counter point is Paolo is playing out of his mind so he should get it. Ok fair.

[drsd]

Gary and Caleb deserve something too but it is what it is!

[VFX]

Note that Black had ZERO assists in 30 minutes of play but also had ZERO turnovers. He doesn't create for others well as I would like from a PG. Maybe he will be KCP's replacement in a year or two.

This is what I was thinking during the game.

He isn’t a point guard. He’s a shooting guard in this system. Not sure how I square that with Jalen Suggs getting paid and being instrumental to the defense.

They also just paid KCP, so it makes even less sense and they have even less incentive to move Suggs back to where he was playing at a high level last season.

It’s good that AB isn’t a bust. Not sure what to make of the current and future rotation based on this information though. Do I trust the FO to do the correct thing and acquire a starting level point guard knowing this? Not a chance. Cole and Suggs getting healthy means what for Black? Oh and it also means Jett Howard is gone.

We agree on the principle of needing a PG. Otherwise. So?

Cojo was never really known for assists but he seems to have more of a PG impact then "Fultz" (waits for the mob) ever did.

To an extent Paolo + Franz need a PG enough to loosen the valve and open things up. Get everyone in a favorable position to get rhythm rather then it just being the Paolo / Franz ISO show the entire game.

For the last time. I personally have backed off the idea of Black being a PG from "sure thing" to "I don't know." This wasn't the game where I realized it. I have been this way for a bit.

The only PG on the roster as far as I can tell is Cojo and because he seems to set the table well enough for us to get into a rhythm I am not backing off that he overstates the point you are trying to make. Which is agreeable.

I'm gonna defend the AB flowers though. Only reasonable counter point is Paolo is playing out of his mind so he should get it. Ok fair.

I've always been an AB proponent for the simple fact that the 2023 draft cannot be a complete bust otherwise Orlando is screwed. I never believed in Jett Howard fwiw, so he wasn't really part of the equation.

I hoped that AB would be a pick against the grain of popular wisdom in stating that 6'6+ lanky prospects usually don't pan out favorably as point guards. I appeared to be incorrect. Well it appears we have Suggs 2.0 where he lands as more of a 2 guard into a system where he isn't directly tasked with getting players into better scoring situations. That's fine. I'll take the added asset value, on court production, and depth.

I don't believe Weltman is capable of making tough decisions. That's unfortunate for Anthony Black. Because at this juncture Weltman has to weigh all the data we have on AB, last two games included, and actually make decisions regarding the future of Cole Anthony, Jalen Suggs, KCP, AB, and two draft picks keeping in mind the offense is sporadic at best.

The path of least resistance says Cole is gone, Suggs remains at point guard, and AB is off the bench behind KCP until he is moved (unlikely) or expires (likelier). Maybe they use a pick on a backup guard assuming Gary isn't also gone.

I don't like that path even though I know thats what Weltman will go with. Why? Because it doesn't address anything and it doesn't put these guys in the best opportunities to succeed. Suggs is the de-facto "point guard" in name only because it happens to work on paper and allows Weltman to pretend his point forward experiment was a success until he's fired.

[Skybox]

There's basically multiple threads going on here...

Everyone should be thrilled with how AB contributed to the win. He was very significant and played one of his best games. Nobody is debating that or denying him his flowers or his third place trophy...you don't need to defend him to me or anyone else. We may have different views of his future, but... He is a good player.

I was only pointing out the fallacy of calling Sweater Vests a useful "statistic" - a silly concept that originated elsewhere, in another thread. I like that an AB or a Caleb or even a Gary or Cojo get their recognition here in this fan forum, including the obvious rooting interests and expectations. But it's a joke to call it a valuable analytics tool.

There's no debate that he played well or that he is (at least) a competent NBA player.

Whether he is ever a PG or a starter, at any spot, on a good team is still TBD.