Darius Garland Trade Proposal Ideas

[SkyHook]

Atlanta isn’t giving up Dyson Daniels. I wouldn’t loop Atlanta and him into deals like this.

Agreed. I've got Daniels at a higher trade value than Garland. I'd give up significantly more for him.

Oh I think this is too far. Daniels is about to get paid and once he's on a big money contract, his value changes meaningfully. I like him too, but we almost never see big trade packages for players like this.

Does he get a higher salary than Garland? I'd be happy to give the value and to pay Daniels what Garland makes, but I have an affinity for long defensive guards over undersized ones.

[DowJones]

Cleveland doesn’t need to make any dramatic moves. They won 64 games with a core five aged 23, 25, 26, 27, and 28. With the East likely to be weaker next season, the focus should be on continued player development this summer—just like the progress they made last year.

If a team wants Garland and Cleveland can get real value in return, I'm open to the idea. But so far, all I see on this message board are "buy low" proposals for a 25-year-old, two-time All-Star point guard who just averaged 21 points and 7 assists with shooting splits of 47/40/88.

[SkyHook]

Atlanta isn’t giving up Dyson Daniels. I wouldn’t loop Atlanta and him into deals like this.

Agreed. I've got Daniels at a higher trade value than Garland. I'd give up significantly more for him.

Yeah, I can definitely see that, even if I'm not quite there yet. But, I'm also cautious to not overrate Daniels just because of his insanely high steal rate. He IS a quite good defender, but he's also feasting a ton in the passing lanes. Not to equate the two, but I remember when Jamaal Tinsley was assumed to be a good defender simply because he had a high steal rate, but he also just feasted in the passing lanes. Daniels is yet to be a guy who can "get a bucket" or truly run an offense, though he's shown to be a really solid secondary distributor.

I've been high on Daniels since long before he was traded. Really wanted the Jazz to beat the Hawks to the punch.

[Texas Chuck]

Agreed. I've got Daniels at a higher trade value than Garland. I'd give up significantly more for him.

Oh I think this is too far. Daniels is about to get paid and once he's on a big money contract, his value changes meaningfully. I like him too, but we almost never see big trade packages for players like this.

Does he get a higher salary than Garland? I'd be happy to give the value and to pay Daniels what Garland makes, but I have an affinity for long defensive guards over undersized ones.

No, I would think his ceiling is probably $25M AAV? So definitely less. But I also think he brings less to the table. He's a terrific complementary piece, but that's likely all he will ever be. If one team thinks Garland can be their primary perimeter shot creator they will pay more for him than the top bidder for Jones because that's more valuable.

I guess if you believe Garland can't fill that role, then yeah you shouldn't want him at all, and thus would pay more for Daniels. But I think there is a team that would take that chance on Garland still.

[ReggiesKnicks]

Atlanta isn’t giving up Dyson Daniels. I wouldn’t loop Atlanta and him into deals like this.

Agreed. I've got Daniels at a higher trade value than Garland. I'd give up significantly more for him.

Yeah, I can definitely see that, even if I'm not quite there yet. But, I'm also cautious to not overrate Daniels just because of his insanely high steal rate. He IS a quite good defender, but he's also feasting a ton in the passing lanes. Not to equate the two, but I remember when Jamaal Tinsley was assumed to be a good defender simply because he had a high steal rate, but he also just feasted in the passing lanes. Daniels is yet to be a guy who can "get a bucket" or truly run an offense, though he's shown to be a really solid secondary distributor.

The defensive metrics for impact have yet to paint Daniels as a good defender. Now, maybe that is the defensive metrics lagging a year or two behind, but it is also possible Daniels simply isn't a good defender.

For example, Caruso is loved by defensive metrics and is arguably the best per-minute non-big defender in the NBA. DRAPM basically ranks him #1 the past 6 seasons. DRAPM hates Daniels (Ranking around 200-300) and no metrics paint him as anywhere close to a Top 10-20 defender in the NBA. LEBRON likes him as a Top 50 defender the past few seasons though.

Even basic +/- things don't paint Daniels as positive, which is susceptible to sample sizes and other noises. Meanwhile Casuso always has large +/- samples, even on this exceptional, All-time Great OKC team, Caruso sticks out at their best defender.

[SkyHook]

Oh I think this is too far. Daniels is about to get paid and once he's on a big money contract, his value changes meaningfully. I like him too, but we almost never see big trade packages for players like this.

Does he get a higher salary than Garland? I'd be happy to give the value and to pay Daniels what Garland makes, but I have an affinity for long defensive guards over undersized ones.

No, I would think his ceiling is probably $25M AAV? So definitely less. But I also think he brings less to the table. He's a terrific complementary piece, but that's likely all he will ever be. If one team thinks Garland can be their primary perimeter shot creator they will pay more for him than the top bidder for Jones because that's more valuable.

I guess if you believe Garland can't fill that role, then yeah you shouldn't want him at all, and thus would pay more for Daniels. But I think there is a team that would take that chance on Garland still.

My opinion of Garland is significantly higher than it was a year ago — from a negative value contract to a slightly above neutral one — but I'm still leery of the archetype. I'm sure that you're right that he would have suitors.

[Scoot McGroot]

Cleveland doesn’t need to make any dramatic moves. They won 64 games with a core five aged 23, 25, 26, 27, and 28. With the East likely to be weaker next season, the focus should be on continued player development this summer—just like the progress they made last year.

If a team wants Garland and Cleveland can get real value in return, I'm open to the idea. But so far, all I see on this message board are "buy low" proposals for a 25-year-old, two-time All-Star point guard who just averaged 21 points and 7 assists with shooting splits of 47/40/88.

Agreed. Cleveland needed to be healthier in this series. Garland, Mitchell, Mobley, and Allen were most definitely not the issues. Cleveland was hurt badly by poor health for Garland/Mitchell, and by getting absolutely inconsistent play from their supporting cast in this Pacers series. Max Strus was very hot and cold. De'Andre Hunter got lost in his head and mentally wasn't ready to be tough enough for a series like this. Dean Wade was consistent and helpful, but just isn't impactful enough to fill a huge gap. Ty Jerome and Sam Merrill were just terrible overall in this series, especially defensively. And Okoro was just a body out there offensively and as such wasn't able to chew up enough minutes to help defensively.

I don't know the answers, but I do know the problems weren't the core 4.

[jbk1234]

yeah these are all high, but he is the player to move. His salary is high enough for the Cavs to get back a replacement guard, and either duck aprons or fill another need. And there are definitely teams who would like to have him.

I just don't see teams paying this much for a guy who has put some nice RS numbers at times with the luxury of getting the 2nd best perimeter defender every single night, but hasn't consistently shown up in the biggest games. Heck even back in the Sexton days, Sexton was the guy stepping up at crunch time not Garland.

The bolded is just factually inaccurate.

Yes its a small exaggeration and its a switching league and all that. But what is true is teams are more concerned with Mitchell than Garland. And he absolutely benefits from that both with defenders and game plans.

And a new team giving big value for him would be asking him to be the primary perimeter offensive player. Maybe he steps up and does that, but we have enough evidence to at least have doubts.

Even if you personally don't.

Derrick White has been assigned to Garland when we've played the Celtics. The Magic assigned Suggs to him the first half of the Magic series last season. In Game 4, with Mitchell out in the entire second half, Carlisle played full court press against Garland in the 3rd quarter despite a 30+ point lead. Nembhard was brought back into that same game to check Garland after seemingly being shut down for the night.

If Garland gets going, you risk the Cavs as a team get going, and there are some pretty smart coaches who are more worried about that than Mitchell scoring 40+ points on 30+ attempts. The reality is that Garland shouldn't have played in the Pacers series because it's hard to make a jump shot off of one foot. It took Carlisle until midway through the second quarter last night to figure out that neither Garland nor Mitchell were shooting threats off of one foot.

[Scoot McGroot]

Agreed. I've got Daniels at a higher trade value than Garland. I'd give up significantly more for him.

Yeah, I can definitely see that, even if I'm not quite there yet. But, I'm also cautious to not overrate Daniels just because of his insanely high steal rate. He IS a quite good defender, but he's also feasting a ton in the passing lanes. Not to equate the two, but I remember when Jamaal Tinsley was assumed to be a good defender simply because he had a high steal rate, but he also just feasted in the passing lanes. Daniels is yet to be a guy who can "get a bucket" or truly run an offense, though he's shown to be a really solid secondary distributor.

The defensive metrics for impact have yet to paint Daniels as a good defender. Now, maybe that is the defensive metrics lagging a year or two behind, but it is also possible Daniels simply isn't a good defender.

For example, Caruso is loved by defensive metrics and is arguably the best per-minute non-big defender in the NBA. DRAPM basically ranks him #1 the past 6 seasons. DRAPM hates Daniels (Ranking around 200-300) and no metrics paint him as anywhere close to a Top 10-20 defender in the NBA. LEBRON likes him as a Top 50 defender the past few seasons though.

Even basic +/- things don't paint Daniels as positive, which is susceptible to sample sizes and other noises. Meanwhile Casuso always has large +/- samples, even on this exceptional, All-time Great OKC team, Caruso sticks out at their best defender.

Yeah, Daniels ain't Caruso, defensively, for sure. I would never make that claim. But watching Daniels, he is absolutely a good defender. He's given the absolute toughest matchups on that roster in Atlanta and does well, especially in a lineup where he's not given much assistance around him. How good? That's where it's tough to say, and where eventually some GM will look like a genius and others will look silly.

[ReggiesKnicks]

Yeah, I can definitely see that, even if I'm not quite there yet. But, I'm also cautious to not overrate Daniels just because of his insanely high steal rate. He IS a quite good defender, but he's also feasting a ton in the passing lanes. Not to equate the two, but I remember when Jamaal Tinsley was assumed to be a good defender simply because he had a high steal rate, but he also just feasted in the passing lanes. Daniels is yet to be a guy who can "get a bucket" or truly run an offense, though he's shown to be a really solid secondary distributor.

The defensive metrics for impact have yet to paint Daniels as a good defender. Now, maybe that is the defensive metrics lagging a year or two behind, but it is also possible Daniels simply isn't a good defender.

For example, Caruso is loved by defensive metrics and is arguably the best per-minute non-big defender in the NBA. DRAPM basically ranks him #1 the past 6 seasons. DRAPM hates Daniels (Ranking around 200-300) and no metrics paint him as anywhere close to a Top 10-20 defender in the NBA. LEBRON likes him as a Top 50 defender the past few seasons though.

Even basic +/- things don't paint Daniels as positive, which is susceptible to sample sizes and other noises. Meanwhile Casuso always has large +/- samples, even on this exceptional, All-time Great OKC team, Caruso sticks out at their best defender.

Yeah, Daniels ain't Caruso, defensively, for sure. I would never make that claim. But watching Daniels, he is absolutely a good defender. He's given the absolute toughest matchups on that roster in Atlanta and does well, especially in a lineup where he's not given much assistance around him. How good? That's where it's tough to say, and where eventually some GM will look like a genius and others will look silly.

Currently it is Atlanta's GM looking like a genius trading DeJounte Murray for Dyson Daniels (A better player) AND 1st round pick(s).

The question becomes is Daniels going to be paid like Jalen Suggs or Andrew Nembhard.

[Scoot McGroot]

The bolded is just factually inaccurate.

Yes its a small exaggeration and its a switching league and all that. But what is true is teams are more concerned with Mitchell than Garland. And he absolutely benefits from that both with defenders and game plans.

And a new team giving big value for him would be asking him to be the primary perimeter offensive player. Maybe he steps up and does that, but we have enough evidence to at least have doubts.

Even if you personally don't.

Derrick White has been assigned to Garland when we've played the Celtics. The Magic assigned Suggs to him the first half of the Magic series last season. In Game 4, with Mitchell out in the entire second half, Carlisle played full court press against Garland in the 3rd quarter despite a 30+ point lead. Nembhard was brought back into that same game to check Garland after seemingly being shut down for the night.

The Pacers have generally picked up full court all season. Especially when TJ McConnell or Nembhard are in.

It took Carlisle until midway through the second quarter last night to figure out that neither Garland nor Mitchell were shooting threats off of one foot.

...and then Mitchell was a major shooting threat off of one foot in the 2nd half...

[Scoot McGroot]

The defensive metrics for impact have yet to paint Daniels as a good defender. Now, maybe that is the defensive metrics lagging a year or two behind, but it is also possible Daniels simply isn't a good defender.

For example, Caruso is loved by defensive metrics and is arguably the best per-minute non-big defender in the NBA. DRAPM basically ranks him #1 the past 6 seasons. DRAPM hates Daniels (Ranking around 200-300) and no metrics paint him as anywhere close to a Top 10-20 defender in the NBA. LEBRON likes him as a Top 50 defender the past few seasons though.

Even basic +/- things don't paint Daniels as positive, which is susceptible to sample sizes and other noises. Meanwhile Casuso always has large +/- samples, even on this exceptional, All-time Great OKC team, Caruso sticks out at their best defender.

Yeah, Daniels ain't Caruso, defensively, for sure. I would never make that claim. But watching Daniels, he is absolutely a good defender. He's given the absolute toughest matchups on that roster in Atlanta and does well, especially in a lineup where he's not given much assistance around him. How good? That's where it's tough to say, and where eventually some GM will look like a genius and others will look silly.

Currently it is Atlanta's GM looking like a genius trading DeJounte Murray for Dyson Daniels...

He got fired!

[jbk1234]

Yes its a small exaggeration and its a switching league and all that. But what is true is teams are more concerned with Mitchell than Garland. And he absolutely benefits from that both with defenders and game plans.

And a new team giving big value for him would be asking him to be the primary perimeter offensive player. Maybe he steps up and does that, but we have enough evidence to at least have doubts.

Even if you personally don't.

Derrick White has been assigned to Garland when we've played the Celtics. The Magic assigned Suggs to him the first half of the Magic series last season. In Game 4, with Mitchell out in the entire second half, Carlisle played full court press against Garland in the 3rd quarter despite a 30+ point lead. Nembhard was brought back into that same game to check Garland after seemingly being shut down for the night.

The Pacers have generally picked up full court all season. Especially when TJ McConnell or Nembhard are in.

It took Carlisle until midway through the second quarter last night to figure out that neither Garland nor Mitchell were shooting threats off of one foot.

...and then Mitchell was a major shooting threat off of one foot in the 2nd half...

No, Mitchell was a shooting threat late in the game after he went back to the locker room, and if what I suspect happened, happened, that was dumb. This wasn't a Game 7.

[Scoot McGroot]

Derrick White has been assigned to Garland when we've played the Celtics. The Magic assigned Suggs to him the first half of the Magic series last season. In Game 4, with Mitchell out in the entire second half, Carlisle played full court press against Garland in the 3rd quarter despite a 30+ point lead. Nembhard was brought back into that same game to check Garland after seemingly being shut down for the night.

The Pacers have generally picked up full court all season. Especially when TJ McConnell or Nembhard are in.

It took Carlisle until midway through the second quarter last night to figure out that neither Garland nor Mitchell were shooting threats off of one foot.

...and then Mitchell was a major shooting threat off of one foot in the 2nd half...

No, Mitchell was a shooting threat late in the game after he went back to the locker room, and if what I suspect happened, happened, that was dumb. This wasn't a Game 7.

I'm sure that what you suspect happened, happened. But also, it was the equivalent of a game 5. It was a win or go home game. And his shooting almost brought them back to win that game. I get it.

[OrlandoDream]

It’s fairly clear at this point the Cavs need a larger guard to play next Mitchell. Here are a few trade ideas for Garland what are the best offers for Garland. What would it take to get Dyson Daniels from Atlanta?

Orlando: Suggs, da Silva, 2025 1st, 2027 1st, 2029 1st

Nets: Johnson, Clowney, 2025 Nets pick, 2027 Knicks pick

Pelicans: Murray, Missi, Jones, and New Orleans 2025 pick (plus okoro)

Ridiculous overpay. Im not even giving up Suggs for Garland. Yes orlando needs a PG but not trading one of the best perimeter defenders for one of the worse. We all see in the PO how much of a defensive cone he is. Thats why players attack him and say cavs better without him.

[DowJones]

It’s fairly clear at this point the Cavs need a larger guard to play next Mitchell. Here are a few trade ideas for Garland what are the best offers for Garland. What would it take to get Dyson Daniels from Atlanta?

Orlando: Suggs, da Silva, 2025 1st, 2027 1st, 2029 1st

Nets: Johnson, Clowney, 2025 Nets pick, 2027 Knicks pick

Pelicans: Murray, Missi, Jones, and New Orleans 2025 pick (plus okoro)

Ridiculous overpay. Im not even giving up Suggs for Garland. Yes orlando needs a PG but not trading one of the best perimeter defenders for one of the worse. We all see in the PO how much of a defensive cone he is. Thats why players attack him and say cavs better without him.

Orlando fans have been pretty consistent in the type of moves they want to see. They’re not looking to make a big splash or shake up the core roster—instead, they prefer to package their lesser assets to add a solid rotation guard rather than take a big swing for an All-Star.

[SkyHook]

Yeah, I can definitely see that, even if I'm not quite there yet. But, I'm also cautious to not overrate Daniels just because of his insanely high steal rate. He IS a quite good defender, but he's also feasting a ton in the passing lanes. Not to equate the two, but I remember when Jamaal Tinsley was assumed to be a good defender simply because he had a high steal rate, but he also just feasted in the passing lanes. Daniels is yet to be a guy who can "get a bucket" or truly run an offense, though he's shown to be a really solid secondary distributor.

The defensive metrics for impact have yet to paint Daniels as a good defender. Now, maybe that is the defensive metrics lagging a year or two behind, but it is also possible Daniels simply isn't a good defender.

For example, Caruso is loved by defensive metrics and is arguably the best per-minute non-big defender in the NBA. DRAPM basically ranks him #1 the past 6 seasons. DRAPM hates Daniels (Ranking around 200-300) and no metrics paint him as anywhere close to a Top 10-20 defender in the NBA. LEBRON likes him as a Top 50 defender the past few seasons though.

Even basic +/- things don't paint Daniels as positive, which is susceptible to sample sizes and other noises. Meanwhile Casuso always has large +/- samples, even on this exceptional, All-time Great OKC team, Caruso sticks out at their best defender.

Yeah, Daniels ain't Caruso, defensively, for sure. I would never make that claim. But watching Daniels, he is absolutely a good defender. He's given the absolute toughest matchups on that roster in Atlanta and does well, especially in a lineup where he's not given much assistance around him. How good? That's where it's tough to say, and where eventually some GM will look like a genius and others will look silly.

Caruso is 100th percentile in dEPM. He's great.

Daniels is 98th.

[ReggiesKnicks]

The defensive metrics for impact have yet to paint Daniels as a good defender. Now, maybe that is the defensive metrics lagging a year or two behind, but it is also possible Daniels simply isn't a good defender.

For example, Caruso is loved by defensive metrics and is arguably the best per-minute non-big defender in the NBA. DRAPM basically ranks him #1 the past 6 seasons. DRAPM hates Daniels (Ranking around 200-300) and no metrics paint him as anywhere close to a Top 10-20 defender in the NBA. LEBRON likes him as a Top 50 defender the past few seasons though.

Even basic +/- things don't paint Daniels as positive, which is susceptible to sample sizes and other noises. Meanwhile Casuso always has large +/- samples, even on this exceptional, All-time Great OKC team, Caruso sticks out at their best defender.

Yeah, Daniels ain't Caruso, defensively, for sure. I would never make that claim. But watching Daniels, he is absolutely a good defender. He's given the absolute toughest matchups on that roster in Atlanta and does well, especially in a lineup where he's not given much assistance around him. How good? That's where it's tough to say, and where eventually some GM will look like a genius and others will look silly.

Caruso is 100th percentile in dEPM. He's great.

Daniels is 98th.

dEPM is one statistic though. I like to use multiple data points when assessing players.

[I_Love_This_Game!!]

What about something built around this:

CLE trades / DAL receives: Darius Garland, Jarrett Allen
DAL trades / CLE receives: Anthony Davis, Daniel Gafford, Jaden Hardy

Why this trade works for Cleveland: They acquire the best player in the deal. The trio of Mitchell, Mobley, and Davis would be much more formidable and perfect for a championship run. Their new lineup:

PG...Mitchell...FA
SG...Strus...Hardy
SF...Hunter...FA
PF...Davis...FA
C...Mobley...Gafford

Why this trade works for Dallas: Winning the lottery and Kyrie's injury should change the window for this team. After making this trade, the Mavs can offer Kyrie the opportunity for a sign and trade and then trade either Allen or Lively with Thompson and Washington for some younger 3&D types. Their new lineup:

PG...Garland...FA
SG...Christie...Martin
SF...Thompson...Marshall
PF...Flagg...Washington
C...Allen...Lively

Thoughts?

[SkyHook]

Yeah, Daniels ain't Caruso, defensively, for sure. I would never make that claim. But watching Daniels, he is absolutely a good defender. He's given the absolute toughest matchups on that roster in Atlanta and does well, especially in a lineup where he's not given much assistance around him. How good? That's where it's tough to say, and where eventually some GM will look like a genius and others will look silly.

Caruso is 100th percentile in dEPM. He's great.

Daniels is 98th.

dEPM is one statistic though. I like to use multiple data points when assessing players.

Got it. I was just sharing one that you hadn't. I like EPM, but there does seem to be a bunching effect with multiple teammates in the same range. Not sure if that's a bug or a feature. Defensive metrics are fuzzy, but I do tend to notice the highly rated players without another teammate in their range. Seems like there might be something there, but I haven't taken the time to drill down.