Reminder: PC forum is doing the Greatest Peaks Project

[bledredwine]

MJ vs Lebron...now with more stats and "justification". Cant wait to give it a read.

It's pretty hilarious to see the mental gymnastics some people are doing to make lists that exclude Jordan or conversely LeBron (though I noticed more omitting Jordan, which is just absolutely nuts) just to try to put their chosen guy over the top.

People were literally trying to say Duncan bad a better peak than Jordan...

Oh yeah, that one cracks me up especially. After Lebron, Duncan is by far the most beloved player on the propaganda comparisons forum. It’s a joke and everyone knows it. It’s a shame because in the midst of all of the garbage bubble, there are a few really quality posters who only seem to post every once in a while.

[NO-KG-AI]

I'm not a pc forum regular, but I do enjoy the host of jilted posts in this thread.

Sounds like some walked into debates and had their ingrained biases tested. No surprises you wouldn't like that!

I like that in these projects you can't get away with logic of 'just cause' or blanket statements about players based on 'feelings' or...nostalgia.

Sure some are set in their ways and hostage to overly formulaic approaches to player assessment. But overall the depth of thought, time committed to a topic and willingness to test some conventional narratives/mistruths is exactly what is missing from discussion elsewhere on RealGM.

“Pc board is bad because my favorite is ranked low”

It’s honestly hilarious. The amount of time, effort and love put into both breaking down and crunching numbers, and just raw tape study a lot of the contributors do is amazing, and has helped push basketball forward.

Not sure who specifically you're referring to, but my gripe is that the "my player" guys pollute the great ideas/charting that the supremely awesome guys start conversations on. It would be cool if there was sometimes some locked threads for those top level stat guys, and we could all just enjoy the high level discussion.

You’re definitely correct. The same handful try to purposely muddy up convos, especially in these contest style things . Multiple times things had to be changed because people were manipulating the voting system to make sure their guy doesn’t lose to another guy instead of voting honestly.

I don’t agree with everyone there at all, but there are some bad faith, GB style posters who want to try and dominate rhe convo there.

[twyzted]

… he's not a top 5 all time peak guy.

On cue…

Apparently the mid 80’s are in a time-warp unable to be recalled by many posters. Often the same posters who praise Jokic and his peak.

I’ll leave it at this…take a look at MVP voting from Bird’s rookie year through his injury plagued final years. He didn’t just win three in a row, he dominated over a longer time. Dominated. As in domination. Peak.

Cool. Nobody is saying he isn't an all time great. There are guys named Michael Jordan, LeBron James, and Kareem who easily had better peaks. Especially when your factor in defense. Then you have guys like Shaq, Magic, Steph, Wilt, Russell, Duncan who you can make a case have better peaks. I never see lists with him in the top 5 GOAT rankings. Why is it so egregious to say he doesn't have a top 5 peak?

Well if you have a 3 year period where you win 3 mvps, Make the finals 3 years winning 2 of them and 2 fmvp. Being one of 3 to win 3 mvps in a row its hard to argue against that being a top 5 peak.

Especially when your factor in defense. Then you have guys like Shaq, Magic, Steph, Wilt, Russell, Duncan who you can make a case have better peaks.

[ScrantonBulls]

On cue…

Apparently the mid 80’s are in a time-warp unable to be recalled by many posters. Often the same posters who praise Jokic and his peak.

I’ll leave it at this…take a look at MVP voting from Bird’s rookie year through his injury plagued final years. He didn’t just win three in a row, he dominated over a longer time. Dominated. As in domination. Peak.

Cool. Nobody is saying he isn't an all time great. There are guys named Michael Jordan, LeBron James, and Kareem who easily had better peaks. Especially when your factor in defense. Then you have guys like Shaq, Magic, Steph, Wilt, Russell, Duncan who you can make a case have better peaks. I never see lists with him in the top 5 GOAT rankings. Why is it so egregious to say he doesn't have a top 5 peak?

Well if you have a 3 year period where you win 3 mvps, Make the finals 3 years winning 2 of them and 2 fmvp. Being one of 3 to win 3 mvps in a row its hard to argue against that being a top 5 peak.

Especially when your factor in defense. Then you have guys like Shaq, Magic, Steph, Wilt, Russell, Duncan who you can make a case have better peaks.

Or you know, you could actually look into their numbers and come to a conclusion yourself. Lol at putting stock into voted awards while completely ignoring a players stats. Are you serious here?

Kobe must be the best defensive SG of all time. He's tied for most 1st team awards as a SG and leads for total all-defensive teams for SGs. He's got a be, right? The awards show that.

[NZB2323]

On cue…

Apparently the mid 80’s are in a time-warp unable to be recalled by many posters. Often the same posters who praise Jokic and his peak.

I’ll leave it at this…take a look at MVP voting from Bird’s rookie year through his injury plagued final years. He didn’t just win three in a row, he dominated over a longer time. Dominated. As in domination. Peak.

Cool. Nobody is saying he isn't an all time great. There are guys named Michael Jordan, LeBron James, and Kareem who easily had better peaks. Especially when your factor in defense. Then you have guys like Shaq, Magic, Steph, Wilt, Russell, Duncan who you can make a case have better peaks. I never see lists with him in the top 5 GOAT rankings. Why is it so egregious to say he doesn't have a top 5 peak?

Well if you have a 3 year period where you win 3 mvps, Make the finals 3 years winning 2 of them and 2 fmvp. Being one of 3 to win 3 mvps in a row its hard to argue against that being a top 5 peak.

Especially when your factor in defense. Then you have guys like Shaq, Magic, Steph, Wilt, Russell, Duncan who you can make a case have better peaks.

I think they’re doing 1 year peaks, not 3, but if you want to do 3 year peaks, I think Bird’s performance in the 85 playoffs hurts his case:

26, 9, and 6, 53.6 TS%, 20.9 PER, 6.0 BPM, 1.7 VORP

His own teammate had a higher GmSc in the NBA finals. In the 85 Finals Bird was 4th in GmSc.

[twyzted]

Cool. Nobody is saying he isn't an all time great. There are guys named Michael Jordan, LeBron James, and Kareem who easily had better peaks. Especially when your factor in defense. Then you have guys like Shaq, Magic, Steph, Wilt, Russell, Duncan who you can make a case have better peaks. I never see lists with him in the top 5 GOAT rankings. Why is it so egregious to say he doesn't have a top 5 peak?

Well if you have a 3 year period where you win 3 mvps, Make the finals 3 years winning 2 of them and 2 fmvp. Being one of 3 to win 3 mvps in a row its hard to argue against that being a top 5 peak.

Especially when your factor in defense. Then you have guys like Shaq, Magic, Steph, Wilt, Russell, Duncan who you can make a case have better peaks.

Or you know, you could actually look into their numbers and come to a conclusion yourself. Lol at putting stock into voted awards while completely ignoring a players stats. Are you serious here?

Well that is probably something you should follow yourself. Maybe i have looked into the numbers.

Making the finals 3 years in row is something that you Lebron fans put A LOT of faith in so why doesnt that apply now?

[twyzted]

Cool. Nobody is saying he isn't an all time great. There are guys named Michael Jordan, LeBron James, and Kareem who easily had better peaks. Especially when your factor in defense. Then you have guys like Shaq, Magic, Steph, Wilt, Russell, Duncan who you can make a case have better peaks. I never see lists with him in the top 5 GOAT rankings. Why is it so egregious to say he doesn't have a top 5 peak?

Well if you have a 3 year period where you win 3 mvps, Make the finals 3 years winning 2 of them and 2 fmvp. Being one of 3 to win 3 mvps in a row its hard to argue against that being a top 5 peak.

Especially when your factor in defense. Then you have guys like Shaq, Magic, Steph, Wilt, Russell, Duncan who you can make a case have better peaks.

I think they’re doing 1 year peaks, not 3, but if you want to do 3 year peaks, I think Bird’s performance in the 85 playoffs hurts his case:

26, 9, and 6, 53.6 TS%, 20.9 PER, 6.0 BPM, 1.7 VORP

His own teammate had a higher GmSc in the NBA finals. In the 85 Finals Bird was 4th in GmSc.

Yeah you are correct they are talking about 1 season only, but in my mind peak would include multiple seasons. And i based my answer to multi year seasons.

Edit: You could make a case for either 84 or 86.
86 would be my choice.
RS: 49.6 FG% - 42.3 3pt% - 89.6 FT% - 9.8 rpg - 6.8 apg - 2.0 spg - 0.6 bpg - 25.8 ppg
Pf: 51.7 FG% - 41.1 3pt% - 92.7 FT% - 9.3 rpg - 8.2 apg - 2.1 spg - 0.6 bpg - 25.9 ppg
Finals: 48.2 FG% - 36.8 3pt% - 93.9 FT% - 9.7 rpg - 9.5 apg - 2.7 spg - 0.3 bpg - 24.0 ppg

[TheGeneral99]

Thinking Basketball did this for players after 1977 and his list was:

1. Michael Jordan

2. LeBron James

3. Shaquille O'Neal

4. Hakeem Olajuwon

5. Larry Bird

6. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

7. Stephen Curry

8. Kevin Garnett

9. Tim Duncan

10. Magic Johnson

[ScrantonBulls]

Well if you have a 3 year period where you win 3 mvps, Make the finals 3 years winning 2 of them and 2 fmvp. Being one of 3 to win 3 mvps in a row its hard to argue against that being a top 5 peak.

Or you know, you could actually look into their numbers and come to a conclusion yourself. Lol at putting stock into voted awards while completely ignoring a players stats. Are you serious here?

Well that is probably something you should follow yourself. Maybe i have looked into the numbers.

Making the finals 3 years in row is something that you Lebron fans put A LOT of faith in so why doesnt that apply now?

Ah, so when you were counting his MVPs as justification that he had a top 5 peak, that actually meant you also were factoring in his numbers. You just failed to mention any part of that.

[twyzted]

Or you know, you could actually look into their numbers and come to a conclusion yourself. Lol at putting stock into voted awards while completely ignoring a players stats. Are you serious here?

Well that is probably something you should follow yourself. Maybe i have looked into the numbers.

Making the finals 3 years in row is something that you Lebron fans put A LOT of faith in so why doesnt that apply now?

Ah, so when you were counting his MVPs as justification that he had a top 5 peak, that actually meant you also were factoring in his numbers. You just failed to mention any part of that.

Larry Bird famously won 3 mvps, 2fmvp while making the finals all 3 year winning 2 titles but had really bad stats. Just because i didnt post detailed analyses on why that 3 year peak could be considered in the top 5 of peaks, doesnt mean the stats wouldnt back it up...

Do you think the people who voted on this back then were braindead?

[SNPA]

Larry Bird received 67% of all MVP votes between 1980 and 1989.

1980 - 4th

1981 - 2nd ( Won Championship)

1982 - 2nd

1983 - 2nd

1984 - MVP (Won Championship + FMVP)

1985 - MVP

1986 - MVP (Won Championship + FMVP)

1987 - 3rd

1988 - 2nd

…..

But that was just people voting, LoOk aT the NumBeRS.

It was domination. He was the best player on the planet for a sizable portion of that time.

For the non math majors, he got 2/3rds of the MVP votes for basically a decade.

[ScrantonBulls]

Larry Bird received 67% of all MVP votes between 1980 and 1989.

1980 - 4th

1981 - 2nd ( Won Championship)

1982 - 2nd

1983 - 2nd

1984 - MVP (Won Championship + FMVP)

1985 - MVP

1986 - MVP (Won Championship + FMVP)

1987 - 3rd

1988 - 2nd

…..

But that was just people voting, LoOk aT the NumBeRS.

It was domination. He was the best player on the planet for a sizable portion of that time.

For the non math majors, he got 2/3rds of the MVP votes for basically a decade.

By gosh, look at those MVP votes. Not even Jordan, LeBron or Kareem were able to win 3 straight MVPs. Shaq only won 1! That must mean Larry Bird has a better peak than those bums!

Can you do Kobe Bryant with All-Defensive awards next to prove he was the best defensive SG ever?

[SNPA]

Larry Bird received 67% of all MVP votes between 1980 and 1989.

1980 - 4th

1981 - 2nd ( Won Championship)

1982 - 2nd

1983 - 2nd

1984 - MVP (Won Championship + FMVP)

1985 - MVP

1986 - MVP (Won Championship + FMVP)

1987 - 3rd

1988 - 2nd

…..

But that was just people voting, LoOk aT the NumBeRS.

It was domination. He was the best player on the planet for a sizable portion of that time.

For the non math majors, he got 2/3rds of the MVP votes for basically a decade.

By gosh, look at those MVP votes. Not even Jordan, LeBron or Kareem were able to win 3 straight MVPs. Shaq only won 1! That must mean Larry Bird has a better peak than those bums!

Can you do Kobe Bryant with All-Defensive awards next to prove he was the best defensive SG ever?

lol. So weak.

2/3rds. That speaks for itself.

[ScrantonBulls]

Larry Bird received 67% of all MVP votes between 1980 and 1989.

1980 - 4th

1981 - 2nd ( Won Championship)

1982 - 2nd

1983 - 2nd

1984 - MVP (Won Championship + FMVP)

1985 - MVP

1986 - MVP (Won Championship + FMVP)

1987 - 3rd

1988 - 2nd

…..

But that was just people voting, LoOk aT the NumBeRS.

It was domination. He was the best player on the planet for a sizable portion of that time.

For the non math majors, he got 2/3rds of the MVP votes for basically a decade.

By gosh, look at those MVP votes. Not even Jordan, LeBron or Kareem were able to win 3 straight MVPs. Shaq only won 1! That must mean Larry Bird has a better peak than those bums!

Can you do Kobe Bryant with All-Defensive awards next to prove he was the best defensive SG ever?

lol. So weak.

2/3rds. That speaks for itself.

You can't even look at the player's statistics, you just blindly believe votes that came from people - of which you probably couldn't even name 5 of those voters. Try doing a little research instead of blindly believing what others tell you.

You definitely represent the anti-PC forum crowd. "Why do in depth analysis into their peaks?! Just look at the MVP votes you dummies!!1"

[SNPA]

By gosh, look at those MVP votes. Not even Jordan, LeBron or Kareem were able to win 3 straight MVPs. Shaq only won 1! That must mean Larry Bird has a better peak than those bums!

Can you do Kobe Bryant with All-Defensive awards next to prove he was the best defensive SG ever?

lol. So weak.

2/3rds. That speaks for itself.

You can't even look at the player's statistics, you just blindly believe votes that came from people - of which you probably couldn't even name 5 of those voters. Try doing a little research instead of blindly believing what others tell you.

You definitely represent the anti-PC forum crowd. "Why do in depth analysis into their peaks?! Just look at the MVP votes you dummies!!1"

I’ve been posting in that board for years.

It’s voters over 9 years. It’s not a fluke.

[Memories]

MJ vs Lebron...now with more stats and "justification". Cant wait to give it a read.

It's pretty hilarious to see the mental gymnastics some people are doing to make lists that exclude Jordan or conversely LeBron (though I noticed more omitting Jordan, which is just absolutely nuts) just to try to put their chosen guy over the top.

People were literally trying to say Duncan bad a better peak than Jordan...

Speaking of Tim Duncan, that dude has become incredibly OVERRATED VERY FAST in the last 6 or so years.

Dude is an all time great, but holy crap, you would think he was a God the way some people treated him. Especially when he had Finals runs where he was even carried by Tony Parker and even Manu Ginobli at times. See 2007.

[Tim Lehrbach]

Larry Bird received 67% of all MVP votes between 1980 and 1989.

I am confused at what this means. Bird would have to be the one and only player named on most ballots, which obviously didn't happen, for him to receive "67% of all MVP votes" over any stretch. I'm not sure we even have the full ballots for all those years. First-place votes only? I haven't done the math, but even that seems impossible, despite taking 85% of the first-place votes during his three consecutive MVPs. For example, he took less than 7% of the first-place votes in 1980 and less than 2% in 1983. Appeared on 67% of ballots, perhaps? Just not sure what you mean.

[twyzted]

Its funny to read through the thread and watch Ohayokd lose his mind as soon as someone voted for Jordan, spent the rest of the thread posting tracking data, counting up all those who were converted from Jordan GOAT status, to say that basketball reference made up numbers to prob Jordan up.

[ScrantonBulls]

Its funny to read through the thread and watch Ohayokd lose his mind as soon as someone voted for Jordan, spent the rest of the thread posting tracking data, counting up all those who were converted from Jordan GOAT status, to say that basketball reference made up numbers to prob Jordan up.

That's called "stating your case" my friend. It's a typical part of a debate. As opposed to what you've seen in this thread from some of the GB posters, where people cry about the rankings and give analysis that goes as deep as "rangz!1" and "MVP votez!"

[MavsDirk41]

“My favorite player has less championships, mvp’s, and other accolades then some of the other all time greats so all i care about is the accumulation of stats and downplaying 80s/90s nba”

Yea there are a few of these on here.

And Larry Bird made 9 straight all nba teams (1st team by the way) starting with his rookie season. Boston won 32 more games his rookie season. The disrespect on here for this guy is comical.