Update: It is time to trade Scottie Barnes before it's too late!

[Los_29]

While I still find the premise fairly ridiculous, if it does happen, let’s not spend 3 years evaluating this time.

The first sign that CMB might be as good or better and that they won’t fit well together, pull the trigger.

That’s how you get Hali for Sabonis instead of garbage for Siakam.

Sabonis was in Indiana for 5 years. They evaluated a lot longer than we did which was two years. People were saying Sabonis and Turner couldn’t play together in the first year. Pacers gave them 4 more years to work it out.

So tell me again, how this strategy helped them get Hali? Being in the right place at the right time and being bailed out by a bad franchise is not good GM’ing. It’s luck.

[HangTime]

I think people will be surprised as to how well these two will work together, even if the 3 point to shooting is iffy.

[CPT]

While I still find the premise fairly ridiculous, if it does happen, let’s not spend 3 years evaluating this time.

The first sign that CMB might be as good or better and that they won’t fit well together, pull the trigger.

That’s how you get Hali for Sabonis instead of garbage for Siakam.

Sabonis was in Indiana for 5 years. They evaluated a lot longer than we did which was two years. People were saying Sabonis and Turner couldn’t play together in the first year. Pacers gave them 4 more years to work it out.

So tell me again, how this strategy helped them get Hali? Being in the right place at the right time and being bailed out by a bad franchise is not good GM’ing. It’s luck.

You got me there. Bad example. Did not think much about the Pacers process up to that point.

Was more thinking along the lines of “young all-star-ish talent is unexpectedly traded.”

[Los_29]

While I still find the premise fairly ridiculous, if it does happen, let’s not spend 3 years evaluating this time.

The first sign that CMB might be as good or better and that they won’t fit well together, pull the trigger.

That’s how you get Hali for Sabonis instead of garbage for Siakam.

Sabonis was in Indiana for 5 years. They evaluated a lot longer than we did which was two years. People were saying Sabonis and Turner couldn’t play together in the first year. Pacers gave them 4 more years to work it out.

So tell me again, how this strategy helped them get Hali? Being in the right place at the right time and being bailed out by a bad franchise is not good GM’ing. It’s luck.

You got me there. Bad example. Did not think much about the Pacers process up to that point.

Was more thinking along the lines of “young all-star-ish talent is unexpectedly traded.”

That’s the most relevant part. Your last point is irrelevant because we know that if an even younger, more talented player, who is a better fit and on a rookie contract was offered for Scottie, Scottie would be packing his bags. The same would be said about Pascal 2-3 years ago.

These Hali or SGA trades are not the norm. It was right place at the right time and required no skill on the part of the GMs who pulled the trigger. Both were no-brainer moves. No team in the league is building their teams with the expectation that these kinds of deals will happen to them.

[basketballto]

While I still find the premise fairly ridiculous, if it does happen, let’s not spend 3 years evaluating this time.

The first sign that CMB might be as good or better and that they won’t fit well together, pull the trigger.

That’s how you get Hali for Sabonis instead of garbage for Siakam.

When is BI plus everything else we got garbage? What do you think a 30 year old soft pf who wants the max is worth? He is not even worth Sabonis when that trade went down.

[YogurtProducer]

Love this post because itll happen. This place overrates late first rd draft picks and/or young players ad nausea

CMB is not a late first round pick though lol

[CPT]

Sabonis was in Indiana for 5 years. They evaluated a lot longer than we did which was two years. People were saying Sabonis and Turner couldn’t play together in the first year. Pacers gave them 4 more years to work it out.

So tell me again, how this strategy helped them get Hali? Being in the right place at the right time and being bailed out by a bad franchise is not good GM’ing. It’s luck.

You got me there. Bad example. Did not think much about the Pacers process up to that point.

Was more thinking along the lines of “young all-star-ish talent is unexpectedly traded.”

That’s the most relevant part. Your last point is irrelevant because we know that if an even younger, more talented player, who is a better fit and on a rookie contract was offered for Scottie, Scottie would be packing his bags. The same would be said about Pascal 2-3 years ago.

These Hali or SGA trades are not the norm. It was right place at the right time and required no skill on the part of the GMs who pulled the trigger. Both were no-brainer moves. No team in the league is building their teams with the expectation that these kinds of deals will happen to them.

This is mostly fair, but I don’t think the trade was considered to be that lopsided at the time, which is kind of the point. General reaction was that it was a win-win, and that held for a while. That’s becoming less and less relevant to this discussion though.

The whole point is if the FO recognizes this situation quickly, they should act quickly. Presumably they would recognize it before the fanbase, it being their job and all.

The Sabonis-Hali trade was an admittedly poorly-chosen example to illustrate this point.

[HoopAndTheHarm]

Both Scottie and CMB look more like Swiss Army Knife "glue guys" more than stars. Scottie has the opportunity to be more but perhaps needs to show a better motor and aggressiveness. Maybe having CMB (who does have a great motor but lacks a lot of polish in other areas) behind him could push Scottie a bit. Scottie is so enticing because he regularly puts up double doubles and flirts with triple doubles while appearing like there's still more he could be doing, particularly with his shot (especially 3pt) and from the line.

[tsherkin]

Bit early to be worrying about this when CMB hasn't yet played a single game. We still need to see if he translates well at the NBA level, and what kind of scorer he can develop into. And probably learning the lessons we learned from Scottie about not forcing someone into a volume scoring role unnecessarily. Meantime, so long as we don't play them both as our frontcourt together, there's little reason to worry about moving Scottie to clear minutes for CMB any time soon. If he can play undersized 5, he'll be fine.

[Los_29]

You got me there. Bad example. Did not think much about the Pacers process up to that point.

Was more thinking along the lines of “young all-star-ish talent is unexpectedly traded.”

That’s the most relevant part. Your last point is irrelevant because we know that if an even younger, more talented player, who is a better fit and on a rookie contract was offered for Scottie, Scottie would be packing his bags. The same would be said about Pascal 2-3 years ago.

These Hali or SGA trades are not the norm. It was right place at the right time and required no skill on the part of the GMs who pulled the trigger. Both were no-brainer moves. No team in the league is building their teams with the expectation that these kinds of deals will happen to them.

This is mostly fair, but I don’t think the trade was considered to be that lopsided at the time, which is kind of the point. General reaction was that it was a win-win, and that held for a while. That’s becoming less and less relevant to this discussion though.

The whole point is if the FO recognizes this situation quickly, they should act quickly. Presumably they would recognize it before the fanbase, it being their job and all.

The Sabonis-Hali trade was an admittedly poorly-chosen example to illustrate this point.

It was unanimously regarded as a horrible trade when it happened. Literally terrible. Simmons, Lowe, Woj, Redick, Windhorst, KOC and many others were shocked and thought it was a bad deal for the Kings. I’m surprised you don’t remember this.

Kings had a good year two years ago and the Pacers missed the playoffs. At that time some considered it a win-win (including myself) but that didn’t last long. Sabonis hasn’t delivered in the playoffs, has shown his limitations and Haliburton has developed into a top 15 player.

Some in this fanbase wanted the keys to be given to Scottie. That turned out to be a disaster and would’ve been even worse had they done it when fans wanted it to happen. Most fans have no idea what the right move is and they also have no idea what these front offices are trying to do.

We need to focus on development not fit. CMB will be in a good environment to develop. He can learn from a lot of guys on this team and get a reasonable amount of minutes in his rookie year. In 2-3 years if it’s obvious that he can’t play with Scottie then a move will be made.

[tsherkin]

We need to focus on development not fit. CMB will be in a good environment to develop. He can learn from a lot of guys on this team and get a reasonable amount of minutes in his rookie year. In 2-3 years if it’s obvious that he can’t play with Scottie then a move will be made.

At this point, we don't have a huge choice in the matter. We have what we have, and we need to see what it can do, what it can become. We sorely lack high-end talent, and the best guy we have on the team (offensively, at least) has major availability issues. So we need to be cautious with him and see what we can do to maximize his availability while wringing every last drop of effective play out of everyone else.

Both Scottie and CMB look more like Swiss Army Knife "glue guys" more than stars. Scottie has the opportunity to be more but perhaps needs to show a better motor and aggressiveness. Maybe having CMB (who does have a great motor but lacks a lot of polish in other areas) behind him could push Scottie a bit. Scottie is so enticing because he regularly puts up double doubles and flirts with triple doubles while appearing like there's still more he could be doing, particularly with his shot (especially 3pt) and from the line.

Scottie has tools, but he lacks certain skills and mentality. I think we need to close the book on him being too involved in the offense and let him focus on defense and rebounding for now. And if that means we move on from "point Scottie" apart from transition, so be it. Maybe, if we find a role for him and he sticks around long enough, he'll DeRozan himself into a more viable scoring threat. He's good enough at the other things, the things which were counted as strengths pre-draft, that he's worth retaining as long as we aren't funneling shots to him unnecessarily.

CMB is young. He doesn't project as an offensive star, so we shouldn't force that either. But if he shows us that his face-up game is effective, then we could lean into that a little more while we wait to see if he can develop a shot. And in the meantime, we can see what Walter and Gradey et al are doing and can show us.

[Jerry Lucas]

I guess OP is operating under the assumption that A) the Raptors will not be successful in teaching CMB how to shoot the 3, and B) Scottie never figures it out either (more likely outcome because we're already 4 years in). Because that's why Scottie and Pascal never worked in Toronto. Neither of them were good enough 3 point shooters for the floor spacing to work with them plus Poeltl.

Like honestly people, just imagine how different things might have gone if Siakam shot 38.8% from 3, on 3.6 attempts per game as a Raptor (because those are his numbers from 3 so far as a Pacer). I don't think he ever would have been traded if that happened.

[tsherkin]

I guess OP is operating under the assumption that A) the Raptors will not be successful in teaching CMB how to shoot the 3, and B) Scottie never figures it out either (more likely outcome because we're already 4 years in). Because that's why Scottie and Pascal never worked in Toronto. Neither of them were good enough 3 point shooters for the floor spacing to work with them plus Poeltl.

Honestly, Pascal wasn't the problem there. I think Scottie worsened things FOR Pascal, who had been shooting fine in 2019 and 2020, and of course erupted post-trade in Indiana with real passing support. We just overtaxed Siakam with too much individual creation responsibility and spaced very poorly around him (we were 27th in 3P% in the 2024 season).

Like honestly people, just imagine how different things might have gone if Siakam shot 38.8% from 3, on 3.6 attempts per game as a Raptor (because those are his numbers from 3 so far as a Pacer). I don't think he ever would have been traded if that happened.

He was at 36.9% on 2.7 per game in 2019. 35.9% on 6.1 of them a year later. We took him out of the corner too much as time went on, asked too much of him from ATB. Immediately after the trade, he was taking nearly a 3rd of his 3pt volume from the corners, and of course he had Hali passing to him. He actually shot 29.8% on ATB 3s after the trade in 2024, but had it going this year.

If 3pt shooting is the reason we moved Siakam, then we were dumb about it. He's inconsistent from ATB, a very good corner shooter, and requires strong passing support. That's not really news, he's not an elite shooter, but he's good enough to be a problem if you set him up correctly, which then helps play off his other skills. Siakam didn't shoot like that for us regularly because we didn't use him in optimal fashion.

[Jerry Lucas]

I guess OP is operating under the assumption that A) the Raptors will not be successful in teaching CMB how to shoot the 3, and B) Scottie never figures it out either (more likely outcome because we're already 4 years in). Because that's why Scottie and Pascal never worked in Toronto. Neither of them were good enough 3 point shooters for the floor spacing to work with them plus Poeltl.

Honestly, Pascal wasn't the problem there. I think Scottie worsened things FOR Pascal, who had been shooting fine in 2019 and 2020, and of course erupted post-trade in Indiana with real passing support. We just overtaxed Siakam with too much individual creation responsibility and spaced very poorly around him (we were 27th in 3P% in the 2024 season).

Like honestly people, just imagine how different things might have gone if Siakam shot 38.8% from 3, on 3.6 attempts per game as a Raptor (because those are his numbers from 3 so far as a Pacer). I don't think he ever would have been traded if that happened.

He was at 36.9% on 2.7 per game in 2019. 35.9% on 6.1 of them a year later. We took him out of the corner too much as time went on, asked too much of him from ATB. Immediately after the trade, he was taking nearly a 3rd of his 3pt volume from the corners, and of course he had Hali passing to him. He actually shot 29.8% on ATB 3s after the trade in 2024, but had it going this year.

If 3pt shooting is the reason we moved Siakam, then we were dumb about it. He's inconsistent from ATB, a very good corner shooter, and requires strong passing support. That's not really news, he's not an elite shooter, but he's good enough to be a problem if you set him up correctly, which then helps play off his other skills. Siakam didn't shoot like that for us regularly because we didn't use him in optimal fashion.

Your explanation fails to account for the 2020-21 season, so before I consider responding further I'm gonna need to see how you explain away that season first. Didn't mention that season alongside 2018-19 and 2019-20, but we still didn't have Scottie yet and he shot 29.7% on 4.4 attempts per game that season.

[tsherkin]

Your explanation fails to account for the 2020-21 season, so before I consider responding further I'm gonna need to see how you explain away that season first. Didn't mention that season alongside 2018-19 and 2019-20, but we still didn't have Scottie yet and he shot 29.7% on 4.4 attempts per game that season.

We were, as I'd noted, moving him more and more out of the corner, and he's inconsistent ATB.

68.2% of attempts in the corner in 2019
22.2% in 2020
21.5% in 2021 (and he had a rough year from the corner as well)
18.3% in 2022
19.9% in 2023
27.6% in 2024 before the trade (32.7% after)

Corner 3P%
2019: 41.1%
2020: 38.3%
2021: 28.3%
2022: 47.5%
2023: 35.1%
2024: 47.5% before, 45.5% after

2021 was a bad year. It happens. He was crushing it from the corners otherwise. That was also a 56-game season for him where he was much interrupted throughout, in a 72-game season.

[Jerry Lucas]

Your explanation fails to account for the 2020-21 season, so before I consider responding further I'm gonna need to see how you explain away that season first. Didn't mention that season alongside 2018-19 and 2019-20, but we still didn't have Scottie yet and he shot 29.7% on 4.4 attempts per game that season.

We were, as I'd noted, moving him more and more out of the corner, and he's inconsistent ATB.

68.2% of attempts in the corner in 2019
22.2% in 2020
21.5% in 2021 (and he had a rough year from the corner as well)
18.3% in 2022
19.9% in 2023
27.6% in 2024 before the trade (32.7% after)

Corner 3P%
2019: 41.1%
2020: 38.3%
2021: 28.3%
2022: 47.5%
2023: 35.1%
2024: 47.5% before, 45.5% after

2021 was a bad year. It happens. He was crushing it from the corners otherwise. That was also a 56-game season for him where he was much interrupted throughout, in a 72-game season.

So let me try to get this straight. Do you (and/or did you) believe one of the following (obviously with the power of hindsight when discussing 3-4 years later):

A) Masai and Bobby should never have drafted Scottie in the first place (if so, say who you would have picked 4th instead)

B) Masai and Bobby should have intercepted the Haliburton to Pacers trade when Scottie's value was close to its peak, and worked out a trade to send him to the Kings in the middle of his ROY campaign, to team up Hali and Siakam on the Raptors in 2021-22.

C) Masai and Bobby should have been willing to trade Scottie plus salary filler for Kevin Durant in the 2022 offseason (Scottie+Trent+2 of Boucher/Otto/Thad would have been close to an exact salary match to Durant's 2022-23 salary), when Scottie's value was arguably at its absolute peak, having just won ROY.

[tsherkin]

So let me try to get this straight. Do you (and/or did you) believe one of the following (obviously with the power of hindsight when discussing 3-4 years later):

A) Masai and Bobby should never have drafted Scottie in the first place (if so, say who you would have picked 4th instead)

B) Masai and Bobby should have intercepted the Haliburton to Pacers trade when Scottie's value was close to its peak, and worked out a trade to send him to the Kings in the middle of his ROY campaign, to team up Hali and Siakam on the Raptors in 2021-22.

C) Masai and Bobby should have been willing to trade Scottie plus salary filler for Kevin Durant in the 2022 offseason (Scottie+Trent+2 of Boucher/Otto/Thad would have been close to an exact salary match to Durant's 2022-23 salary), when Scottie's value was arguably at its absolute peak, having just won ROY.

So, before I answer any of that, what does it have to do with Pascal Siakam's 3pt shooting, which is what we were discussing?

[Pointgod]

If CMB can develop a 3 point shot, it will be Ingram being shipped out not Scottie

[ConSarnit]

While I still find the premise fairly ridiculous, if it does happen, let’s not spend 3 years evaluating this time.

The first sign that CMB might be as good or better and that they won’t fit well together, pull the trigger.

That’s how you get Hali for Sabonis instead of garbage for Siakam.

Sabonis was in Indiana for 5 years. They evaluated a lot longer than we did which was two years. People were saying Sabonis and Turner couldn’t play together in the first year. Pacers gave them 4 more years to work it out.

So tell me again, how this strategy helped them get Hali? Being in the right place at the right time and being bailed out by a bad franchise is not good GM’ing. It’s luck.

Taking advantage of dumb/desperate teams is good GM’ing.

Ainge and BKN. Presti and the Clippers. ATL and NOP recently. SAC has been taken advantage of multiple times.

[Jerry Lucas]

So let me try to get this straight. Do you (and/or did you) believe one of the following (obviously with the power of hindsight when discussing 3-4 years later):

A) Masai and Bobby should never have drafted Scottie in the first place (if so, say who you would have picked 4th instead)

B) Masai and Bobby should have intercepted the Haliburton to Pacers trade when Scottie's value was close to its peak, and worked out a trade to send him to the Kings in the middle of his ROY campaign, to team up Hali and Siakam on the Raptors in 2021-22.

C) Masai and Bobby should have been willing to trade Scottie plus salary filler for Kevin Durant in the 2022 offseason (Scottie+Trent+2 of Boucher/Otto/Thad would have been close to an exact salary match to Durant's 2022-23 salary), when Scottie's value was arguably at its absolute peak, having just won ROY.

So, before I answer any of that, what does it have to do with Pascal Siakam's 3pt shooting, which is what we were discussing?

The main point you seemed to be making in your original reply to me was this:

Honestly, Pascal wasn't the problem there. I think Scottie worsened things FOR Pascal

Which is why I presented those 3 non-Scottie scenarios to you.