Position battle: PWill, Terry, Phillips, Noa

[League Circles]

To me it's clear:

5: ideally Smith and Essengue split it but even I concede it's gonna probably be Vuc and Collins
4: Matas starts, Patrick and Essengue compete for minutes behind him
3: Giddey starts, Patrick/Huerter compete for minutes behind him
2: free for all competition between primarily Okoro and Ayo, but also sort of including Huerter and Patrick
1: Coby and Jones have this locked up

So the locks for PT rotation roles are:

(centers per Billy)
Matas
Giddey
Coby
Jones

Then the order of priority in terms of apparent "ties" between the others is basically a function of contract status, age, and skillset:

1a/1b: Essengue/Patrick
3: Okoro (two more years under contract and has the physical makeup)
4: Ayo (downgraded due to contract status and lack of size, but otherwise right there)
5: Huerter: downgraded due to age and contract status
6: Carter - tbh possibly our best pure 3 point shooter and we kinda lack that
7: Phillips
8: Terry - downgraded cause less prospect as a shooter than Phillips IMO

[GoBlue72391]

Essengue.

Pat, Terry, and Phillips have no future here, and we're talking about a relatively small role, so give it to Essengue for development purposes to get his feet wet at the NBA level.

Pat just turned 24 and is under contract for four more years. He absolutely has a future here, or somewhere else. But for that to happen, he has to play better. It helps that he also fits well with the players who are the biggest parts of our future.

It's fine if Essengue doesn't play much, if at all, to start the season. He's 18 and he doesn't have a clear role yet. There's no rush.

You don't draft young, raw, project players just to not play them. Players develop by playing.

He should be getting at least 10 MPG at the NBA level with a good helping of G League time as well, but G League games will only do so much for him, especially considering he played professionally in France already. He needs to learn the NBA game and that's only going to happen with live game reps in NBA games against NBA players.

As the season goes on, hopefully he'll earn more than those token 10 MPG and Billy can ramp up his role like he did with Matas, but he needs to be playing SOME minutes from day 1.

[sco]

Essengue.

Pat, Terry, and Phillips have no future here, and we're talking about a relatively small role, so give it to Essengue for development purposes to get his feet wet at the NBA level.

Pat just turned 24 and is under contract for four more years. He absolutely has a future here, or somewhere else. But for that to happen, he has to play better. It helps that he also fits well with the players who are the biggest parts of our future.

It's fine if Essengue doesn't play much, if at all, to start the season. He's 18 and he doesn't have a clear role yet. There's no rush.

You don't draft young, raw, project players just to not play them. Players develop by playing.

He should be getting at least 10 MPG at the NBA level with a good helping of G League time as well, but G League games will only do so much for him, especially considering he played professionally in France already. He needs to learn the NBA game and that's only going to happen with live game reps in NBA games against NBA players.

As the season goes on, hopefully he'll earn more than those token 10 MPG and Billy can ramp up his role like he did with Matas, but he needs to be playing SOME minutes from day 1.

Yeah, I have to assume Essengue will get 10ish minutes before the ASB, and then more, depending on his play and where we're at.

I think he benefits from G-League play where he can get work on his stroke, FT's and more minutes in our system, but I think it will be for spurts based on our schedule.

[TheJordanRule]

Pat just turned 24 and is under contract for four more years. He absolutely has a future here, or somewhere else. But for that to happen, he has to play better. It helps that he also fits well with the players who are the biggest parts of our future.

It's fine if Essengue doesn't play much, if at all, to start the season. He's 18 and he doesn't have a clear role yet. There's no rush.

You don't draft young, raw, project players just to not play them. Players develop by playing.

He should be getting at least 10 MPG at the NBA level with a good helping of G League time as well, but G League games will only do so much for him, especially considering he played professionally in France already. He needs to learn the NBA game and that's only going to happen with live game reps in NBA games against NBA players.

As the season goes on, hopefully he'll earn more than those token 10 MPG and Billy can ramp up his role like he did with Matas, but he needs to be playing SOME minutes from day 1.

Yeah, I have to assume Essengue will get 10ish minutes before the ASB, and then more, depending on his play and where we're at.

I think he benefits from G-League play where he can get work on his stroke, FT's and more minutes in our system, but I think it will be for spurts based on our schedule.

I'm a Mamba mentality guy, not an entitlement minutes guy. If these guys, including Pat and Essengue want minutes, let them earn it. Pat is looking better lately but he's been my biggest annoyance. We have a fan base that has wanted to trade dudes just so that Pat can play 30 MPG. That mindset is ridiculous to me. If a guy is worth playing, he's gonna show it in practice on the daily. The coaches know what's going on. They want to win, too. If you gift a player entitlement minutes, you risk damaging their work ethic. Without a highly developed work ethic, these kids never get to where they're projected to be.

[dougthonus]

We have a fan base that has wanted to trade dudes just so that Pat can play 30 MPG.

We had a fan base that wanted to trade dudes to get Pat more shots. His competition for minutes has been JaVonte Green, Derrick Jones Jr, and Torey Craig.

[GoBlue72391]

You don't draft young, raw, project players just to not play them. Players develop by playing.

He should be getting at least 10 MPG at the NBA level with a good helping of G League time as well, but G League games will only do so much for him, especially considering he played professionally in France already. He needs to learn the NBA game and that's only going to happen with live game reps in NBA games against NBA players.

As the season goes on, hopefully he'll earn more than those token 10 MPG and Billy can ramp up his role like he did with Matas, but he needs to be playing SOME minutes from day 1.

Yeah, I have to assume Essengue will get 10ish minutes before the ASB, and then more, depending on his play and where we're at.

I think he benefits from G-League play where he can get work on his stroke, FT's and more minutes in our system, but I think it will be for spurts based on our schedule.

I'm a Mamba mentality guy, not an entitlement minutes guy. If these guys, including Pat and Essengue want minutes, let them earn it. Pat is looking better lately but he's been my biggest annoyance. We have a fan base that has wanted to trade dudes just so that Pat can play 30 MPG. That mindset is ridiculous to me. If a guy is worth playing, he's gonna show it in practice on the daily. The coaches know what's going on. They want to win, too. If you gift a player entitlement minutes, you risk damaging their work ethic. Without a highly developed work ethic, these kids never get to where they're projected to be.

There's a huge difference between gifting a player a starting spot and 25+ MPG like we did with Pat and giving someone like Essengue a token, low minute, minor role so he can get used to the NBA game.

[Red Larrivee]

You don't draft young, raw, project players just to not play them. Players develop by playing.

He should be getting at least 10 MPG at the NBA level with a good helping of G League time as well, but G League games will only do so much for him, especially considering he played professionally in France already. He needs to learn the NBA game and that's only going to happen with live game reps in NBA games against NBA players.

As the season goes on, hopefully he'll earn more than those token 10 MPG and Billy can ramp up his role like he did with Matas, but he needs to be playing SOME minutes from day 1.

Sure you do. You can learn the NBA game without playing. Getting on the court matters, but the things you do before that are very important too.

Essengue has shown nothing that indicates he's ready to be a steady contributor to start the season. And that's OK. We don't need to rush it. He's 18 years old and we have players in front of him that are flat out better.

Donovan did a good job last season of easing Buzelis into the rotation, and now look at where's he at. Outside of Pat, Donovan has done a good job of managing rookies. And right now, you'd have to assume that Essengue just isn't ready.

[Chi town]

You don't draft young, raw, project players just to not play them. Players develop by playing.

He should be getting at least 10 MPG at the NBA level with a good helping of G League time as well, but G League games will only do so much for him, especially considering he played professionally in France already. He needs to learn the NBA game and that's only going to happen with live game reps in NBA games against NBA players.

As the season goes on, hopefully he'll earn more than those token 10 MPG and Billy can ramp up his role like he did with Matas, but he needs to be playing SOME minutes from day 1.

Sure you do. You can learn the NBA game without playing. Getting on the court matters, but the things you do before that are very important too.

Essengue has shown nothing that indicates he's ready to be a steady contributor to start the season. And that's OK. We don't need to rush it. He's 18 years old and we have players in front of him that are flat out better.

Donovan did a good job last season of easing Buzelis into the rotation, and now look at where's he at. Outside of Pat, Donovan has done a good job of managing rookies. And right now, you'd have to assume that Essengue just isn't ready.

Billy said Noa is far ahead of where Buz was defensively but Buz was far ahead of where Noa is with the offensively skill set and dribble. Billy is high on Noa and his feel and defensive awareness.

Billy also said he prefers guys getting 6 min runs as lots of guys play as the season goes on.

Noa will get his shot and he will have to prove he’s ready for it and more just like Buz.

Best thing about this season is the same can be said for Pat. If he sucks he will sit.

[HomoSapien]

The answer is Huerter and Ayo. Those are the guys who help us most on the court and the only way to get them real minutes with a healthy roster is by going small and having those guys at the 3.

As for the original question, it’s worth pointing out that Pat didn’t really outplay Terry or Phillips last season. All three produced virtually similar per 36 stats. If we’re being completely honest with ourselves, the only real argument for playing Pat over those two is that benching him would just completely destroy any future trade value. Williams has the lowest motor of anyone I’ve seen on the Bulls, aside from maybe Snell. Unless he’s discovered something this offseason, playing him isn’t going to lead to success. Ultimately, Noa Essengue is the more important player. You either gift him rotation minutes with the hope he develops faster or you play Terry, who isn’t exactly better than Pat but at least plays like he likes basketball. He’s a fairly strong defender, is somewhat versatile, and I think that enthusiasm can be contagious.

[Chi town]

Sounds like Coby will be on a mins restriction. Thinking 20mpg and probably first 7-10 games.

[Rose2Boozer]

Patrick Williams. That being said, Matas Buzelis playing small forward is the roster game changer. Matas at the three means Huerter and/or Okoro could be expendable. The cheap guys(Terry and Phillips) could be the long term keepers.

[Ccwatercraft]

Noa was an instaclick for me.

We've seen the rest. Give him minutes

[Jvaughn]

How good would Phillips and/or Terry have to be this season in order for you guys to want to try to re-sign them to a multi year contract?

Honestly not a ton better for Phillips. Definitely wouldn't sign longer than 3 years and it wouldn't be for much more than minimum money. I like his energy when he's in the game. He can be a disruptive defender and active cutter on offense. I like the kid, but he's had some struggles breaking into the rotation. If there are any consolidation trades this year, I'd like to see what he can do in a bigger role.

Dalen is incapable of improving to the level I'd need to see him at to warrant resigning. He's a marginal talent at best and his shot would have to be saved by some type of miracle.

[sco]

How good would Phillips and/or Terry have to be this season in order for you guys to want to try to re-sign them to a multi year contract?

Honestly not a ton better for Phillips. Definitely wouldn't sign longer than 3 years and it wouldn't be for much more than minimum money. I like his energy when he's in the game. He can be a disruptive defender and active cutter on offense. I like the kid, but he's had some struggles breaking into the rotation. If there are any consolidation trades this year, I'd like to see what he can do in a bigger role.

Dalen is incapable of improving to the level I'd need to see him at to warrant resigning. He's a marginal talent at best and his shot would have to be saved by some type of miracle.

The good news on Phillips, IIRC, we have a TO for him next season.

I think Dalen is the sort of guy who keeps improving each season because of his work ethic. His defense during the preseason has been darn near elite at times. He just needs a more reliable 3pt shot to become a viable starting talent. IMO he'll be a Javonte Green type guy this season, but without a reliable 3, he's not starting material.

[Chi town]

Patrick Williams. That being said, Matas Buzelis playing small forward is the roster game changer. Matas at the three means Huerter and/or Okoro could be expendable. The cheap guys(Terry and Phillips) could be the long term keepers.

Yep.

I want Buz at the 3 long term. I think we will see him continue to develop to play more like Tatum on ball. As he gets stronger he will be a matchup nightmare against wings and bumping them for buckets and shooting over them.

I want us to play bigger and longer. Pat is bigger and Noa is longer. I like those 3 manning the 3/4 and Noa getting backup 5 mins long term.

[Jvaughn]

How good would Phillips and/or Terry have to be this season in order for you guys to want to try to re-sign them to a multi year contract?

Honestly not a ton better for Phillips. Definitely wouldn't sign longer than 3 years and it wouldn't be for much more than minimum money. I like his energy when he's in the game. He can be a disruptive defender and active cutter on offense. I like the kid, but he's had some struggles breaking into the rotation. If there are any consolidation trades this year, I'd like to see what he can do in a bigger role.

Dalen is incapable of improving to the level I'd need to see him at to warrant resigning. He's a marginal talent at best and his shot would have to be saved by some type of miracle.

The good news on Phillips, IIRC, we have a TO for him next season.

I think Dalen is the sort of guy who keeps improving each season because of his work ethic. His defense during the preseason has been darn near elite at times. He just needs a more reliable 3pt shot to become a viable starting talent. IMO he'll be a Javonte Green type guy this season, but without a reliable 3, he's not starting material.

You seem to be much higher on Dalen than I. A shot would go a long way, but I think he'd still be far from starter talent. The game looks like it's just way too fast for him still. At times, it's glaring how much he doesn't belong out there. That being said, for a minimum contract, he's not really hurting you and I'm sure he'll have a long career due to his effort play.

[eierluke]

What hasn't been taken into account:
if a role player who is not a lock down defender a long range shooter or a microwave scorer he at least should be able to bring the ball into a scorers hand.

Phillips can not even make an assist. He should be out of discussion here.

And we should add Okoro into this group, who can't score and can't assist. Is his defense really good enough to play him?

[Infinity2152]

Billy played Smith at PF some in the preseason. Seems like a logical thing to try, especially against big teams. I think the Bulls starting lineup will change constantly, except Giddey, Matas, and Vucevic. Coby's on a minute limit, so who knows? Really hope Smith gets some minutes at PF. He's better than Patrick Williams, Phillips and Noa right now and he's being wasted.

Not sure Okoro, Huerter or Ayo would be better starters than Smith, because we haven't seen enough of him at PF. We know Vucevic is starting, so while Coby is down:

Giddey/Jones/Ayo
Okoro/White/Ayo
Matas/Huerter
Smith/Williams
Vucevic/Collins

And the other guys fight for scraps or beat Smith out for a starting spot. Start Ayo in games in against two great guards, move Smith to backup PF and screw Williams.

[Jvaughn]

Billy played Smith at PF some in the preseason. Seems like a logical thing to try, especially against big teams. I think the Bulls starting lineup will change constantly, except Giddey, Matas, and Vucevic. Coby's on a minute limit, so who knows? Really hope Smith gets some minutes at PF. He's better than Patrick Williams, Phillips and Noa right now and he's being wasted.

Not sure Okoro, Huerter or Ayo would be better starters than Smith, because we haven't seen enough of him at PF. We know Vucevic is starting, so while Coby is down:

Giddey/Jones/Ayo
Okoro/White/Ayo
Matas/Huerter
Smith/Williams
Vucevic/Collins

And the other guys fight for scraps or beat Smith out for a starting spot. Start Ayo in games in against two great guards, move Smith to backup PF and screw Williams.

With the Collins injury to start the season, Smith is probably getting 20mpg at C out the gate. Not sure how much we'll be able to play him at PF as we're shorthanded in the middle.

[ChiTownHero1992]

To begin the season, no contest for Williams, by the end of the season...hopefully it is Noa