The "gather step" needs to be removed from the game ASAP.

[floppymoose]

I would love to see gather step removed, jump stop removed, and the switching of pivot feet on step-throughs removed. It would change the game to be more skill oriented and more passing oriented.

[og15]

I would love to see gather step removed, jump stop removed, and the switching of pivot feet on step-throughs removed. It would change the game to be more skill oriented and more passing oriented.

Pivot foot isn't switched on a one leg step through. I know what you're contending against, but people say switching pivot feet, but that's not the correct criticism. The criticism you could have is lifting the pivot foot, but again, there was no rule against that in the rule book and if there was it would eliminate some things that we consider standard.

Anyways, here's a discussion on that one:

Watch on YouTube

I think the big thing here is the layup dilemma. If someone calls that switching pivot feet, then they consider a layup switching pivot feet. Not to mention a fadeaway in the post, but because we're not used to one, or think it is supposed to be illegal, we've made up non actual rule book reasons, just personal feeling reasons.

[Karate Diop]

I've watched and played basketball for decades and am now confused as hell over what should constitute a travel...

All I know is that if I tried pulling half of these gather step-back astronaut ass travel to the moon and back moves that players do nowadays Coach Bernard would have had me running suicides for weeks.

[Capn'O]

Where I think definitions can be adjusted is what constitutes "control". I think maybe more in the thought of making it that after the hand comes in contact with the ball we consider it control, vs saying "only until you are unable to dribble anymore". This is where a lot of gather step complaints intersect with what is permitted dribbling wise and what is considered a carry.

This is really what everyone means. I don't think anyone has an issue with a player putting the ball forward on the break and taking a few steps while the ball is on the dribble and the player is not in contact with the ball. Once the hand has touched the ball on the way up it we've got players wandering around in the desert for 40 years like Moses while the ball spins. No more please. After the hand touches, foot can plant, then two steps.

My 2c.

For reference, this should be considered wandering in the desert, not gathering:

Watch on YouTube

This is not in the spirit of any basketball rule.

[dhsilv2]

Seeing Jordan Pool and Ja Morant with their "hesi" moves, seeing Giannis take a single dribble crossing half court to the hoop... Its all stuff that if you were playing with your friends on a court you'd call bs on. Fans feel it and see it.

See now this is where I get annoyed. Totally cool with wanting to get rid of the gather though if enforced fully, we'd have all kinds of issue. But what Pool does and perhaps Ja (I've watched less of Ja closely). Pool is just straight up palming the ball, full 180 hand all the way under and he's changing directions in his hand. That's a whole other issue and I haven't a clue how refs let it go.

[dhsilv2]

It shouldn't be removed but it should be a maximum of one step. This stroll around the park **** while you gather doesn't fly.

How do you write that given someone like Giannis with a live dribble can take 2 steps easily between bounces without any real "magic"...he's just 7 feet tall and the ball travels that far up.

[GameOver25]

Unfortunately traveling has become a norm in the league. Just watch, every game you see guys moving there feet even before dribbling. This whole increase the pace, push the ball has caused a lot of bad fundamentals and habits. I feel like it's gotten so out of hand the refs and league to a certain extent decided to just swallow the whistle or we'd witness too many stoppages for all the violations.

[dhsilv2]

It's more the lax carrying rules that annoy me. And yet you have these same new fans that act like Durant, Giannis, Wemby or any 6'10 and up player is leaps and bound better than guys from the past like Kareem, Bird because they have better "handles". Can you imagine if guys like Kareem, Ewing, Malone, Worthy, Mourning, or Robinson had been able to dribble the basketball the way modern players have been able to?

I could imagine Kareem with some more mobility. Malone sure maybe. Worthy yeah. The others I dont see it. Rules weren't their issue with the ball in hand.

[meekrab]

Where I think definitions can be adjusted is what constitutes "control". I think maybe more in the thought of making it that after the hand comes in contact with the ball we consider it control, vs saying "only until you are unable to dribble anymore". This is where a lot of gather step complaints intersect with what is permitted dribbling wise and what is considered a carry.

This is really what everyone means. I don't think anyone has an issue with a player putting the ball forward on the break and taking a few steps while the ball is on the dribble and the player is not in contact with the ball. Once the hand has touched the ball on the way up it we've got players wandering around in the desert for 40 years like Moses while the ball spins. No more please. After the hand touches, foot can plant, then two steps.

My 2c.

For reference, this should be considered wandering in the desert, not gathering:

Watch on YouTube

This is not in the spirit of any basketball rule.

Yes, exactly. If you have your hand in contact with the ball during an established dribble, you are controlling it, it's not a god damn Quidditch Golden Snitch that's trying to escape from you as soon as you lose concentration for a moment. You shouldn't be allowed to take six steps during a single dribble like Giannis does here, or any of the other abuses of the "gather" step we've seen lately.

Which is to say nothing of all the other ways offenders abuse the rulebook by initiating contact into the defense and being gifted foul shots.

[Capn'O]

It shouldn't be removed but it should be a maximum of one step. This stroll around the park **** while you gather doesn't fly.

How do you write that given someone like Giannis with a live dribble can take 2 steps easily between bounces without any real "magic"...he's just 7 feet tall and the ball travels that far up.

Look at the clip I posted. He's holding it spinning in his hand while he takes 3 steps! It is INJUSTICE!

[dhsilv2]

It shouldn't be removed but it should be a maximum of one step. This stroll around the park **** while you gather doesn't fly.

How do you write that given someone like Giannis with a live dribble can take 2 steps easily between bounces without any real "magic"...he's just 7 feet tall and the ball travels that far up.

Look at the clip I posted. He's holding it spinning in his hand while he takes 3 steps! It is INJUSTICE!

Skill to do that being wild...or my hands suck aside.

I'm just asking how you write the rules to target just that and not ruin other things we don't dislike. As I totally get your issue and am not really against you here.

That said, the blatant palming that GUARDS are doing is where I can't get past. Poole is just putting his hand fully under the ball and moving it...I don't care if it's spinning...his hand is FULLY under it. Nothing subjective, nuanced, or skilled. He's just holding the ball in his palm! And I'm open to being told i'm the old man in the clouds on that. But to me that's where I'm losing my mind watching guys. At least to my eye Giannis has his hand's center of gravity above the halfway point which to me isn't palming. Something another big modern handler, in KD doesn't maintain, he's always going to the under side too.

Giannis...I'm a bit torn as when a smaller guy does the same thing, it's graceful and looks like a basketball move. When he does it...it looks just terrible. So maybe he's calling attention to a problem and if so...open to fixes. There's just no world I don't get annoyed with the obvious palming once you're past half court. I guess I'm a hypocrite but guys palming while walking up...it's weird and seems dumb but whatever. It isn't hurting anything.

[Capn'O]

How do you write that given someone like Giannis with a live dribble can take 2 steps easily between bounces without any real "magic"...he's just 7 feet tall and the ball travels that far up.

Look at the clip I posted. He's holding it spinning in his hand while he takes 3 steps! It is INJUSTICE!

Skill to do that being wild...or my hands suck aside.

I'm just asking how you write the rules to target just that and not ruin other things we don't dislike. As I totally get your issue and am not really against you here.

That said, the blatant palming that GUARDS are doing is where I can't get past. Poole is just putting his hand fully under the ball and moving it...I don't care if it's spinning...his hand is FULLY under it. Nothing subjective, nuanced, or skilled. He's just holding the ball in his palm! And I'm open to being told i'm the old man in the clouds on that. But to me that's where I'm losing my mind watching guys. At least to my eye Giannis has his hand's center of gravity above the halfway point which to me isn't palming. Something another big modern handler, in KD doesn't maintain, he's always going to the under side too.

Giannis...I'm a bit torn as when a smaller guy does the same thing, it's graceful and looks like a basketball move. When he does it...it looks just terrible. So maybe he's calling attention to a problem and if so...open to fixes. There's just no world I don't get annoyed with the obvious palming once you're past half court. I guess I'm a hypocrite but guys palming while walking up...it's weird and seems dumb but whatever. It isn't hurting anything.

I'd refer you to this post where OG15 and I discussed a little more in depth.

viewtopic.php?p=119981142#p119980080

[dhsilv2]

Look at the clip I posted. He's holding it spinning in his hand while he takes 3 steps! It is INJUSTICE!

Skill to do that being wild...or my hands suck aside.

I'm just asking how you write the rules to target just that and not ruin other things we don't dislike. As I totally get your issue and am not really against you here.

That said, the blatant palming that GUARDS are doing is where I can't get past. Poole is just putting his hand fully under the ball and moving it...I don't care if it's spinning...his hand is FULLY under it. Nothing subjective, nuanced, or skilled. He's just holding the ball in his palm! And I'm open to being told i'm the old man in the clouds on that. But to me that's where I'm losing my mind watching guys. At least to my eye Giannis has his hand's center of gravity above the halfway point which to me isn't palming. Something another big modern handler, in KD doesn't maintain, he's always going to the under side too.

Giannis...I'm a bit torn as when a smaller guy does the same thing, it's graceful and looks like a basketball move. When he does it...it looks just terrible. So maybe he's calling attention to a problem and if so...open to fixes. There's just no world I don't get annoyed with the obvious palming once you're past half court. I guess I'm a hypocrite but guys palming while walking up...it's weird and seems dumb but whatever. It isn't hurting anything.

I'd refer you to this post where OG15 and I discussed a little more in depth.

viewtopic.php?p=119981142#p119980080

Yeah I read this one after and love the gathering in the desert comment. But I'm still not sure how we address it and don't muddy up other things.

Unless we want to give ref's the "subjective authority to call something a travel by a spirit of the rule clause". But then good golly, that'll be a disaster post game.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

People keep pointing at the wrong problem.
The issue is not how you officiate the gather *step*.
The issue is what is considered a *gather* and how much players can carry the ball while keeping the dribble live.
It's not about that half step, it's how Giannis could *legally* take two steps after his last bounce, hands on the side of the ball, with no intention of ever putting it back on the floor, and have such move consedered a live dribble.

[52-12-7]

NBA is a ruined product. From players artificially creating super teams, not giving a rats ass about all-star games, players protecting their FG% to the point where it has gotten so bad that the league had to change the rules to encourage end of quarter heaves which is a complete joke... and all these lax rules that only promotes offense. Nevermind the fact that the league tried to sweep Kawhi scandal under the rug, and the latest gambling scandals, this is a product that only cares about making money. I honestly don't know what can save this game.

[pepe1991]

Pretty much every euro step is a travel.

Gather step should be first step of adjustment once you catch ball, extra step to establish yourself without falling out of balance.

But once player puts ball on the deck, gather step no longer should be part of a rule.

Current state of officiating gives players 3 or even 4 steps to attack defenders, that's why nobody can guard or defend transition. Players, most skilled ones, keep skipping from leg to leg until defender goes in one direction, than skip to next leg and go for layup.

Giannis travel is just eye popping and how much he cheats, and how it's impossible for defender to actually defend it, but it's very common in every game. Players often , on defensive end look at refs with " dude...." looks on their face, because there is nothing you can do about.

Physicality of a game is gone and banned ,and players get away with epic ball carry & traveling . Guys like Giannis on basically any transition play make several steps while ball never touches deck.

Watch on YouTube

from 0:40

he makes 8 steps, but ball only touches floor 4 times, that's how and why he covers distance so quickly. He doesn't dribble, he carries ball over, and from time to time allows ball to bounce. If you try this stuff on court, you will notice how much "faster" you are than your opponents, and if you try this on street, odds are, you will end up in street fight

As final result you have most PPG in modern era, most FTA since 2005 and most "superstars" in history. But this is what Silver wants. Basketball that is WWE. Highlight reels of games that nobody actually watches, cycling of champions due aprons and league for soccer moms & drunk dads. Basketball fans are not desired.

[pr0wler]

It shouldn't be removed but it should be a maximum of one step. This stroll around the park **** while you gather doesn't fly.

I was thinking this too. I get the intention of the rule, but when guys are floating the ball and getting 3 steps, then gather, and have two additional long lateral steps, it doesn't really feel like basketball at that point.

[hauntedcomputer]

You cannot. It's already baked into the next generation because schoolkids are doing it.

I was going to ref in the local rec league for fun and a way to stay in the game (I'm 63) and then realized the game I knew would get me killed if I called anything.

[swyftdahoe]

this last generation or two of players have "destroyed" the game with their smarts, shenanigans and "unethical" game. i'm with everyone who thinks this **** is completely against the spirit of the game.

[Ice Man]

Eliminating the gather so that the travel rule becomes 1 1/2 steps after the ball last touches the floor would make driving to the hoop quite a bit harder, which in turn would permit teams to close out 3 point shooters more effectively, which in turn would make the current, ubiquitous tactic of 5 out less effective. Right now you just spread the shooters, force the defense to overcommit, then drive into a vacated lane wherein due to the gather rule, you can end your dribble at the foul line. That's making it too easy for the offenses.