Should Toronto still want Kawhi?

[danfantastk32]

Hell no.

Honestly, who cares about the scandal.....this guy can't play more than 5 games without getting hurt. If the Raptors are stupid enough to sign him, then go for it. I'm not a Raptor fan, so I don't care. But just don't come cryin when this guy sits 2/3rds of your season out.

[Sane]

I think they should have the right to withdraw, but I don't really care that he tried to make extra money off a billionaire. It's not high character behavior but I can live with that easier than I can live with a selfish teammate on the court, a player who abused a female, an owner that committed war crimes, etc.

[Iwasawitness]

Reeks of desperation on the Raptors end. He already bent them over and screwed them in the past. It’s not a great look welcoming him back after he demanded illegal compensation and then bailed to the first team that gave into his demands.

Bent them over and screwed them? He led them to a championship.

[levon]

Sure I guess. I don't think they're winning a title with or without him. That extension will be interesting. I see him just taking a fat paycheck and sitting out games again. Sometimes it's best to keep the past the past, keep it short and sweet.

[JustLucky]

Kawhi got paid under the table, he didn't murder someone. Y'all need to get a grip

he murdered a franchise

who deserved it and had it coming

[cupcakesnake]

I never understood the price they were willing to pay. Brandom Ingram and two unprotected firsts for a 35 year old version of a player who has been one of the least reliably available of all major superstars over the past seasons. Ingram was their volume scorer. Without him, do they really think they have offensive punch to contend even with Kawhi? They can't just rest him 1/4 of the season and use their depth to arrive at the playoffs in good shape for the playoffs. And even then - when he was 27 and rested a lot - he still looked like he was barely making it through the playoffs. I thought he looked like he was wearing out by the end of the Finals and looked less effective than earlier. Was it smalls ample size randomness, I don't know. But I wouldn't trust him to hold up to a long playoff run at this age. Heck, he hasn't won a playoff series since 2021.

Anyway, even though I think he's still a better player than Brandon Ingram, trading Ingram and 2 unprotected firsts for him at 35 when you don't look like you're one piece away from a Championship is insane to me.

I don't think Ingram was viewed as a positive asset in the Clippers deal. He was salary matching, and the Clippers could afford to pay a placeholder starter during a transition time for their franchise.

Ingram is not a good player. He's overly focused on bucket getting- something he's good but not elite at- at the expense of everything else you need to win at basketball. The man showed all kinds of potential early in his career. One year he'd look like a point forward, and the next, he'd show some real defensive potential with those long arms. Then once he became an established scorer, that all went away. He's a bit cartoonish sometimes, like the only part of basketball he understands is taking tough pull ups in the lane.

Raptors fans like him early, as his bucket getting seemed to fit well on the more defensive oriented Raps roster. By midway through the season, the love affair was over, and everyone was sick of the lanky chucker who did nothing else. When he got injured in the playoffs, most Raptors fans were like
"ok now we might have a chance to win this series!"

He's not good enough at scoring to be so focused on it at the expense of everything else. He's not good enough to be a serious option on a playoff team. He's a negative player that multiple teams have gotten a look at and decided to move on from.

[cupcakesnake]

Kawhi got paid under the table, he didn't murder someone. Y'all need to get a grip

Should Kawhi be made to live on top of a mountain peak, have his heart devoured by an eagle, only for it to regrow for the eagle to eat again tomorrow, for all of eternity?

[cupcakesnake]

Kawhi got paid under the table, he didn't murder someone. Y'all need to get a grip

I mean, politicians can get 10–20 years for corruption, or at least they used to. Corruption in any form, whether it is in sports, public life, or politics, is corrosive to the social fabric.

I get it, though nobody seems to care anymore. Oh, and what Kawhi did to the Clippers may not be classified technically a homicide, but it should.

Politicians grossly misusing public funds/taxpayer dollars is something I think most of us would agree should be punished aggressively.

I have no idea what this example has to do with the Kawhi situation though.

[Sixers in 4]

Kawhi got paid under the table, he didn't murder someone. Y'all need to get a grip

I mean, politicians can get 10–20 years for corruption, or at least they used to. Corruption in any form, whether it is in sports, public life, or politics, is corrosive to the social fabric.

I get it, though nobody seems to care anymore. Oh, and what Kawhi did to the Clippers may not be classified technically a homicide, but it should.

If you put athletes on the same pedestal as elected politicians, thats a you problem, not a world issue.

I’m not putting anyone on a pedestal, and I never said what athletes do was a world issue. That is not the point. The point is that the public has become so accustomed to corruption that it barely expects anything else from public or private institutions. Kawhi will keep playing, have a perfectly good career, and ultimately, none of this will matter all that much. That is why I think the attitude of “everyone is corrupt, so who cares” is so corrosive. Eventually, the standard becomes not whether people are doing the right thing, but whether they are doing something bad enough to finally cross a line like murdering someone. That is a terrible standard to accept.

We even saw large segments of fans and former players were more upset that Torre exposed the corruption than they were that the corruption happened in the first place. This is probably more appropriate for the General Affairs board, and I do not want to sidetrack the thread any further but if you genuinely do not think what Kawhi did was wrong and warranted more punishment than he received, then that is a you problem.

Kawhi got paid under the table, he didn't murder someone. Y'all need to get a grip

I mean, politicians can get 10–20 years for corruption, or at least they used to. Corruption in any form, whether it is in sports, public life, or politics, is corrosive to the social fabric.

I get it, though nobody seems to care anymore. Oh, and what Kawhi did to the Clippers may not be classified technically a homicide, but it should.

Politicians grossly misusing public funds/taxpayer dollars is something I think most of us would agree should be punished aggressively.

I have no idea what this example has to do with the Kawhi situation though.

Like, I don’t want to get into a deep discussion about it, but corruption permeates societies where it is widespread. It is not just the politician taking a bribe, it's the athlete exploiting the system, the cop answering your 911 call, or the person deciding whether to process your paperwork and the expectation, acceptance or indifference to it by the wider public.

[Duffman100]

Reeks of desperation on the Raptors end. He already bent them over and screwed them in the past. It’s not a great look welcoming him back after he demanded illegal compensation and then bailed to the first team that gave into his demands.

How did he bend us over and screw us? He came, he gave 100% of his effort and won us a title. He didn't owe us anything in FA.

[Johnny Bball]

Yes.

Integrity and respect for the game are fundamental to who he is.

I don't usually see this level of sarcasm from you. Its impressive.

Yeah they still want to trade for Kawhi, and even if its not just to get Kawhi, they just need to ditch Ingram and Grady and open up more minutes and get rid of the ball dominant guy.

[JujitsuFlip]

Kawhi got paid under the table, he didn't murder someone. Y'all need to get a grip

I mean, politicians can get 10–20 years for corruption, or at least they used to. Corruption in any form, whether it is in sports, public life, or politics, is corrosive to the social fabric.

I get it, though nobody seems to care anymore. Oh, and what Kawhi did to the Clippers may not be classified technically a homicide, but it should.

Politicians grossly misusing public funds/taxpayer dollars is something I think most of us would agree should be punished aggressively.

I have no idea what this example has to do with the Kawhi situation though.

You may want to look into how the RIFC ownership group (that Kawhi is apart of) funded their stadium.

However, I understand I'm not actually allowed to voice a negative opinion about Kawhi though, so I'll just leave it at that.

[MarcusBrody]

I never understood the price they were willing to pay. Brandom Ingram and two unprotected firsts for a 35 year old version of a player who has been one of the least reliably available of all major superstars over the past seasons. Ingram was their volume scorer. Without him, do they really think they have offensive punch to contend even with Kawhi? They can't just rest him 1/4 of the season and use their depth to arrive at the playoffs in good shape for the playoffs. And even then - when he was 27 and rested a lot - he still looked like he was barely making it through the playoffs. I thought he looked like he was wearing out by the end of the Finals and looked less effective than earlier. Was it smalls ample size randomness, I don't know. But I wouldn't trust him to hold up to a long playoff run at this age. Heck, he hasn't won a playoff series since 2021.

Anyway, even though I think he's still a better player than Brandon Ingram, trading Ingram and 2 unprotected firsts for him at 35 when you don't look like you're one piece away from a Championship is insane to me.

I don't think Ingram was viewed as a positive asset in the Clippers deal. He was salary matching, and the Clippers could afford to pay a placeholder starter during a transition time for their franchise.

Ingram is not a good player. He's overly focused on bucket getting- something he's good but not elite at- at the expense of everything else you need to win at basketball. The man showed all kinds of potential early in his career. One year he'd look like a point forward, and the next, he'd show some real defensive potential with those long arms. Then once he became an established scorer, that all went away. He's a bit cartoonish sometimes, like the only part of basketball he understands is taking tough pull ups in the lane.

Raptors fans like him early, as his bucket getting seemed to fit well on the more defensive oriented Raps roster. By midway through the season, the love affair was over, and everyone was sick of the lanky chucker who did nothing else. When he got injured in the playoffs, most Raptors fans were like
"ok now we might have a chance to win this series!"

He's not good enough at scoring to be so focused on it at the expense of everything else. He's not good enough to be a serious option on a playoff team. He's a negative player that multiple teams have gotten a look at and decided to move on from.

I'm not saying that Ingram is a particularly great player. I just don't think that adding 35 year old Kawhi to this Raptors pushes them over the top. They weren't bad offensively last year, but they were in the bottom tier of playoff teams. Kawhi will improve that when he's available, but I still don't see them having enough to make a push right now and so think that trading two unprotected first round picks to me is an overpay. I know that Ingram had to go for salary matching purposes, but if he somehow was still around and could have stayed as a bench scorer/starter when Kawhi rested, I'd feel like they were a lot closer to contending and so I'd be more ok with sacrificing the future pics.

[Iwasawitness]

I never understood the price they were willing to pay. Brandom Ingram and two unprotected firsts for a 35 year old version of a player who has been one of the least reliably available of all major superstars over the past seasons. Ingram was their volume scorer. Without him, do they really think they have offensive punch to contend even with Kawhi? They can't just rest him 1/4 of the season and use their depth to arrive at the playoffs in good shape for the playoffs. And even then - when he was 27 and rested a lot - he still looked like he was barely making it through the playoffs. I thought he looked like he was wearing out by the end of the Finals and looked less effective than earlier. Was it smalls ample size randomness, I don't know. But I wouldn't trust him to hold up to a long playoff run at this age. Heck, he hasn't won a playoff series since 2021.

Anyway, even though I think he's still a better player than Brandon Ingram, trading Ingram and 2 unprotected firsts for him at 35 when you don't look like you're one piece away from a Championship is insane to me.

Kawhi at this point is still a better offensive punch than Ingram, who got locked up in the playoffs by Dean Wade (which was a key reason as to why they lost that series). You're not locking up Kawhi, at least not in the fashion Ingram was to the point where he was basically unplayable in the postseason. Even if Kawhi can't get you the offensive production he once could, he could still get you great defense as well if he commits to that end.

My big issue with this isn't getting rid of Ingram. It's getting rid of the two first rounders. Toronto is not in a position where they can go all in, at least not yet. And even if they could, I do agree that I don't think Kawhi is the answer. And the question marks regarding his health are a serious issue. If he's not able to go in the playoffs, that's another easy first round exit for them.

[MarcusBrody]

I never understood the price they were willing to pay. Brandom Ingram and two unprotected firsts for a 35 year old version of a player who has been one of the least reliably available of all major superstars over the past seasons. Ingram was their volume scorer. Without him, do they really think they have offensive punch to contend even with Kawhi? They can't just rest him 1/4 of the season and use their depth to arrive at the playoffs in good shape for the playoffs. And even then - when he was 27 and rested a lot - he still looked like he was barely making it through the playoffs. I thought he looked like he was wearing out by the end of the Finals and looked less effective than earlier. Was it smalls ample size randomness, I don't know. But I wouldn't trust him to hold up to a long playoff run at this age. Heck, he hasn't won a playoff series since 2021.

Anyway, even though I think he's still a better player than Brandon Ingram, trading Ingram and 2 unprotected firsts for him at 35 when you don't look like you're one piece away from a Championship is insane to me.

Kawhi at this point is still a better offensive punch than Ingram, who got locked up in the playoffs by Dean Wade (which was a key reason as to why they lost that series). You're not locking up Kawhi, at least not in the fashion Ingram was to the point where he was basically unplayable in the postseason. Even if Kawhi can't get you the offensive production he once could, he could still get you great defense as well if he commits to that end.

My big issue with this isn't getting rid of Ingram. It's getting rid of the two first rounders. Toronto is not in a position where they can go all in, at least not yet. And even if they could, I do agree that I don't think Kawhi is the answer. And the question marks regarding his health are a serious issue. If he's not able to go in the playoffs, that's another easy first round exit for them.

I have never intended to claim that Kawhi isn't still much better than Brandon Ingram. My whole point is your second paragraph.

[statsman]

Interesting poll results so far. No real consensus. Fairly well split between the "yes" options (with or without adjustment) and the "no" options.

Assuming the trade is going through, I wonder what the delay is at this point. Maybe we'll hear tomorrow after US Labor Day (today).

[Optms]

Kawhi got paid under the table, he didn't murder someone. Y'all need to get a grip

I mean, politicians can get 10–20 years for corruption, or at least they used to. Corruption in any form, whether it is in sports, public life, or politics, is corrosive to the social fabric.

I get it, though nobody seems to care anymore. Oh, and what Kawhi did to the Clippers may not be classified technically a homicide, but it should.

[cupcakesnake]

I never understood the price they were willing to pay. Brandom Ingram and two unprotected firsts for a 35 year old version of a player who has been one of the least reliably available of all major superstars over the past seasons. Ingram was their volume scorer. Without him, do they really think they have offensive punch to contend even with Kawhi? They can't just rest him 1/4 of the season and use their depth to arrive at the playoffs in good shape for the playoffs. And even then - when he was 27 and rested a lot - he still looked like he was barely making it through the playoffs. I thought he looked like he was wearing out by the end of the Finals and looked less effective than earlier. Was it smalls ample size randomness, I don't know. But I wouldn't trust him to hold up to a long playoff run at this age. Heck, he hasn't won a playoff series since 2021.

Anyway, even though I think he's still a better player than Brandon Ingram, trading Ingram and 2 unprotected firsts for him at 35 when you don't look like you're one piece away from a Championship is insane to me.

I don't think Ingram was viewed as a positive asset in the Clippers deal. He was salary matching, and the Clippers could afford to pay a placeholder starter during a transition time for their franchise.

Ingram is not a good player. He's overly focused on bucket getting- something he's good but not elite at- at the expense of everything else you need to win at basketball. The man showed all kinds of potential early in his career. One year he'd look like a point forward, and the next, he'd show some real defensive potential with those long arms. Then once he became an established scorer, that all went away. He's a bit cartoonish sometimes, like the only part of basketball he understands is taking tough pull ups in the lane.

Raptors fans like him early, as his bucket getting seemed to fit well on the more defensive oriented Raps roster. By midway through the season, the love affair was over, and everyone was sick of the lanky chucker who did nothing else. When he got injured in the playoffs, most Raptors fans were like
"ok now we might have a chance to win this series!"

He's not good enough at scoring to be so focused on it at the expense of everything else. He's not good enough to be a serious option on a playoff team. He's a negative player that multiple teams have gotten a look at and decided to move on from.

I'm not saying that Ingram is a particularly great player. I just don't think that adding 35 year old Kawhi to this Raptors pushes them over the top. They weren't bad offensively last year, but they were in the bottom tier of playoff teams. Kawhi will improve that when he's available, but I still don't see them having enough to make a push right now and so think that trading two unprotected first round picks to me is an overpay. I know that Ingram had to go for salary matching purposes, but if he somehow was still around and could have stayed as a bench scorer/starter when Kawhi rested, I'd feel like they were a lot closer to contending and so I'd be more ok with sacrificing the future pics.

I think Kawhi puts them in the mix, but with a fat injury risk asterisk. I'm rarely into teams investing heavily in older, injury-prone players, and it will be pretty interesting to see what kind of extension gets offered. I wouldn't be surprised if Kawhi spend 2-3 injury prone years in Toronto and then retires. I also wouldn't surprised if he extended him prime for a couple more seasons, and was healthy enough for at least 1 meaningful playoff run. There is definite potential downside to this deal, and it would be silly to downplay that.

The Raptors gave up 2 potentially good picks, and 2 players they didn't even want. They didn't sell the family farm in this one. I think Toronto has made a series of questionable moves, locking them into not a ton of roster flexibility for Scottie Barnes upcoming prime. I get why they went after a discount Kawhi trade. He's a potential serious roster upgrade for a team that doesn't have a clear path to another one. They still have most of their draft capital intact.

Ingram makes 40m this year, with a player option the year after that. There was absolutely no way to trade for Kawhi without sending out Ingram, unless you're sending out Barnes, or the combined contracts of RJ and Quickley (who both fit on a Kawhi roster better than Ingram). Sending out Ingram- a player who was a negative for Toronto last year- reminds me of sending out Derozan. Big name with a big contract, but not someone who helps you win games. Literally a negative on the court.

[Iwasawitness]

I never understood the price they were willing to pay. Brandom Ingram and two unprotected firsts for a 35 year old version of a player who has been one of the least reliably available of all major superstars over the past seasons. Ingram was their volume scorer. Without him, do they really think they have offensive punch to contend even with Kawhi? They can't just rest him 1/4 of the season and use their depth to arrive at the playoffs in good shape for the playoffs. And even then - when he was 27 and rested a lot - he still looked like he was barely making it through the playoffs. I thought he looked like he was wearing out by the end of the Finals and looked less effective than earlier. Was it smalls ample size randomness, I don't know. But I wouldn't trust him to hold up to a long playoff run at this age. Heck, he hasn't won a playoff series since 2021.

Anyway, even though I think he's still a better player than Brandon Ingram, trading Ingram and 2 unprotected firsts for him at 35 when you don't look like you're one piece away from a Championship is insane to me.

Kawhi at this point is still a better offensive punch than Ingram, who got locked up in the playoffs by Dean Wade (which was a key reason as to why they lost that series). You're not locking up Kawhi, at least not in the fashion Ingram was to the point where he was basically unplayable in the postseason. Even if Kawhi can't get you the offensive production he once could, he could still get you great defense as well if he commits to that end.

My big issue with this isn't getting rid of Ingram. It's getting rid of the two first rounders. Toronto is not in a position where they can go all in, at least not yet. And even if they could, I do agree that I don't think Kawhi is the answer. And the question marks regarding his health are a serious issue. If he's not able to go in the playoffs, that's another easy first round exit for them.

I have never intended to claim that Kawhi isn't still much better than Brandon Ingram. My whole point is your second paragraph.

Ingram was their volume scorer. Without him, do they really think they have offensive punch to contend even with Kawhi?

Explain this part then please?

[cupcakesnake]

I mean, politicians can get 10–20 years for corruption, or at least they used to. Corruption in any form, whether it is in sports, public life, or politics, is corrosive to the social fabric.

I get it, though nobody seems to care anymore. Oh, and what Kawhi did to the Clippers may not be classified technically a homicide, but it should.

If you put athletes on the same pedestal as elected politicians, thats a you problem, not a world issue.

I’m not putting anyone on a pedestal, and I never said what athletes do was a world issue. That is not the point. The point is that the public has become so accustomed to corruption that it barely expects anything else from public or private institutions. Kawhi will keep playing, have a perfectly good career, and ultimately, none of this will matter all that much. That is why I think the attitude of “everyone is corrupt, so who cares” is so corrosive. Eventually, the standard becomes not whether people are doing the right thing, but whether they are doing something bad enough to finally cross a line like murdering someone. That is a terrible standard to accept.

We even saw large segments of fans and former players were more upset that Torre exposed the corruption than they were that the corruption happened in the first place. This is probably more appropriate for the General Affairs board, and I do not want to sidetrack the thread any further but if you genuinely do not think what Kawhi did was wrong and warranted more punishment than he received, then that is a you problem.

I mean, politicians can get 10–20 years for corruption, or at least they used to. Corruption in any form, whether it is in sports, public life, or politics, is corrosive to the social fabric.

I get it, though nobody seems to care anymore. Oh, and what Kawhi did to the Clippers may not be classified technically a homicide, but it should.

Politicians grossly misusing public funds/taxpayer dollars is something I think most of us would agree should be punished aggressively.

I have no idea what this example has to do with the Kawhi situation though.

Like, I don’t want to get into a deep discussion about it, but corruption permeates societies where it is widespread. It is not just the politician taking a bribe, it's the athlete exploiting the system, the cop answering your 911 call, or the person deciding whether to process your paperwork and the expectation, acceptance or indifference to it by the wider public.

I suppose I don't disagree with the spirit of what you're saying, but that doesn't mean we should weigh any act of corrpution equally.

There are things that cause more harm, and those are the things I care more about.

This feels kind of like mid-2000s environmentalism, when there was a culture of shaming people for flushing the toilet too much, or not buying green products, and very little relative attention on corporate polution, which accounted for 99.999999% of the problem but we were out here believing a strong campaign around shorter showers was something worth focusing on.

Even in the Kawhi thing, I feel more negatively towards the Clippers. I don't feel positively about Kawhi. I think he and Uncle Dennis have made the NBA a bit worse than most players do. The Clippers ultimately were the ones that were in a position to actually break a rule and do something correct. Kawhi could only ask them to. The Lakers and Raptors said no. The Clippers licked their lips and damaged the integrity of the competitive landscape of the NBA.

I'm not a Kawhi apologist. As a fan, I like him less for the whole thing. I just care about other things a lot more.