The Overrating of Travis Outlaw

[Walton'sBeard!]

Well, if you actually read my post, you would see where I said that Roy did a good job of making Lebron settle for jumpers, whereas when they switched, and Travis was on him, he got to the hoop with ease. Lebron shoots 29% from 3. Every time, I want him taking 3s over shooting from 3 feet away. Every time. If you feel otherwise because he got hot and hit those against us, that seems pretty crazy to me. Roy played D on him well enough to force him into long shots, which is what you want to do. Lebron scored 17 points in the quarter. Not every single time did he get them with Roy on him.
And it isn't occasional youthful mistakes. It is his game. It isn't "just occasional" that he fails to box out, and it isn't "just occasional" that he gets beat by a SF to the rim. I have watched every single game this year, and it isn't just occasion. Certainly he can get better, I am not saying he has peaked, but I agree with the assesment he is overrated, and that being over rated shows in a thread where he is called a lock down, and even good defender. That doesn't jive with the actual games being played.

Here's a shocker: I actually read you post.

You don't give the best player in the NBA, who is having a career night, wide open 3's. Yet, Brandon time after time went under the screens leaving Lebron wide open. How many 3's does Lebron have to make before you would guard him?

As far as your assertion that Travis let him get to the rim, do you mean like this? http://youtube.com/watch?v=d8a23i6NYD4

I don't know if Travis could have done better, but he could not have done worse.

Is he overrated by some people on this board? Sure, but I don't think it's much worse than other Blazers overratedness. Martell anyone?

[cucad8]

Do you play a player to his strengths or his weaknesses? Do you encourage a very poor 3 point shooter to shoot 3s, or dunk on people?

[Walton'sBeard!]

Do you play a player to his strengths or his weaknesses? Do you encourage a very poor 3 point shooter to shoot 3s, or dunk on people?

I said Salemstoner seems to hate Travis because his lat post looked like a bash-fest with statements like "worthless on offense" and "awful defense". Maybe the guy was just excited.

Anyway, I don't care what Lebron's 3 pt percentage is, if he hits one 3 late in the 4th I play him tight until he proves it was a fluke. You don't treat him like other players IMO.

[PDXKnight]

Man, Travis Outlaw is a big part to our future. Trading him away just wouldn't make sense because he's the perfect 6th man for our team in the present and future and potentially a starter in our future lineup once he can develop more SF skills. Unless something really good came along, I hope/believe that Outlaw will spend the majority of his career in Portland. Webster, Jones, and Frye are decent role players but Outlaw has established himself as one of our core players through his success this season.

[Fitz303]

Well, if you actually read my post, you would see where I said that Roy did a good job of making Lebron settle for jumpers, whereas when they switched, and Travis was on him, he got to the hoop with ease. Lebron shoots 29% from 3. Every time, I want him taking 3s over shooting from 3 feet away. Every time. If you feel otherwise because he got hot and hit those against us, that seems pretty crazy to me. Roy played D on him well enough to force him into long shots, which is what you want to do. Lebron scored 17 points in the quarter. Not every single time did he get them with Roy on him.
And it isn't occasional youthful mistakes. It is his game. It isn't "just occasional" that he fails to box out, and it isn't "just occasional" that he gets beat by a SF to the rim. I have watched every single game this year, and it isn't just occasion. Certainly he can get better, I am not saying he has peaked, but I agree with the assesment he is overrated, and that being over rated shows in a thread where he is called a lock down, and even good defender. That doesn't jive with the actual games being played.

Im sorry but do you remember that game? did you watch the whole thing? because im pretty sure youre just assuming that. Outlaw actually did an alright job in his time defending LeBron. Im not saying hes a great defender, but he did not "let LeBron get to the hoop with ease". Yes, LeBron is one of the best players in the league and nobody is going to stop him, but Outlaw actually did a decent job on him. In fact, it was Webster who got left standing there on multiple occasions for some of Lebrons nastiest dunks, or didnt box him out for an easy tip in. Webster looked just as stupid when he was guarding LeBron.

And where did you hear Outlaw say that he wants to come off the bench? Im pretty sure he has never said anything like that. Also, where is this all of the sudden coming from that Travis' asthma is going to hold him back from playing 30+ MPG?? Again, Ive never heard anything like that. He was going just fine at the end of last season when he was playing well over 30mpg on a nightly basis. Hes played 17 games this season so far where hes played 29-39 minutes and done just fine in most of those (especially after November once he got his legs under him and broke out of his slump). Bottom line is that we dont know how Travis would fair throughout and entire season against SFs but each time ive seen him play against one, hes done alright. If Mike Miller can play SG, then Travis Outlaw can play SF

[Norm2953]

As I having been writing on the Oden thread, we are going to
have a team that eventually is going to be an annual threat to
win championships. There's no need for Outlaw to be a star
on a team with Roy, LA and Oden.

I think he is going to give us years of the stats he brings us now.
I'll take 12 ppg, 5 rbg with great energy and hustle for a sixth man
on a team that annually wins over 60 games.

[Khazim]

Walton, SalemStoner never said anything about hating Travis. He certainly doesn't, he is just aware of the fact that he has weaknesses. His "awful D" is what one would consider a weakness. I personally would clarify that as saying "awful man-to-man D" as his weakside help and hustle is actually quite effective, but to say he is a "stopper" is freaking ridiculous.

No one is saying Travis sucks, and I probably like Travis less than anyone I know, and I still appreciate him for what he is. But I also realize that he is only what he is. He's not an all-star, he's not our 2nd best player, and he's not a starter. He is a very effective sixth man, with great hustle, and likeable attitude, who has been clutch for us the past couple months. He is a tweener with a solid shot, decent range, and some ability to drive despite his poor ball handling. However, he takes an incredibly large amount of forced shots, further illustrating his poor Bball IQ. Fortunately he also tends to make those shots frequently.

Travis is a valuable member of our team, and a great person. But he is not untouchable or the future. I hope he stays with the Blazers, but I'm not gonna burn down KP's house or cry my eyes out if he ends up as part of a good deal like many people on this board have implied as of late.

[Walton'sBeard!]

Walton, SalemStoner never said anything about hating Travis. He certainly doesn't, he is just aware of the fact that he has weaknesses. His "awful D" is what one would consider a weakness. I personally would clarify that as saying "awful man-to-man D" as his weakside help and hustle is actually quite effective, but to say he is a "stopper" is freaking ridiculous.

No one is saying Travis sucks, and I probably like Travis less than anyone I know, and I still appreciate him for what he is. But I also realize that he is only what he is. He's not an all-star, he's not our 2nd best player, and he's not a starter. He is a very effective sixth man, with great hustle, and likeable attitude, who has been clutch for us the past couple months. He is a tweener with a solid shot, decent range, and some ability to drive despite his poor ball handling. However, he takes an incredibly large amount of forced shots, further illustrating his poor Bball IQ. Fortunately he also tends to make those shots frequently.

Travis is a valuable member of our team, and a great person. But he is not untouchable or the future. I hope he stays with the Blazers, but I'm not gonna burn down KP's house or cry my eyes out if he ends up as part of a good deal like many people on this board have implied as of late.

I agree with almost everything you say. I do not believe Travis's man-to-man D is awful or even below average. In fact, I can't think of one Blazer who plays significantly better man-to-man D. Maybe you and I are looking for different things. And I do think Travis should start, maybe just temporarily, but as well as he has played and as bad as the team has looked lately it might turn things around. He would be as good of a starter as Blake or Webster. Not every starter has to play 40 min and average 20 pts per game.

[SalemStoner]

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SalemStoner wrote:
Great so you're saying we get to go back to watching Travis try to get by the same SFs who blow by him on the other end of the court next year? Grrreat...


Perhaps you are watching Bo Outlaw, because I rarely see any player "blow by" Travis. Work for ESPN?

Maybe it's cuz you only watch the 4th quarter and seem to think that guy Travis is always guarding is a SF and not a PF... Or maybe you just don't know what good defense actually is. Good defense isn't always stopping the other team from scoring, alot of the time it's simply forcing them into a more difficult shot or into a shot they don't want to take... For instance you seemed to think Travis couldn't do any worse than Roy and Martell did on Lebron in the 4th because he went off for 17 points... but that's completely ignoring the fact that Roy and Martell made Lebron work his ass off to get those looks and that they werent the types of looks he wants to get. The proof of this is the number 3s he took in the 4th while being a 29% 3pt shooter on the season, the 3pt shot is NOT the shot the Cavs want Lebron taking. What the Cavs want is Lebron driving to the bucket... which isn't something Outlaw has shown he can stop or even slow down. And anytime you can get Lebron to shoot mostly 3s for a quarter you're playing good defense, regardless of whether ball goes in the bucket every time or not. The fact is, best player in the NBA or not, Lebron is NOT a good 3pt shooter and letting him take that shot is better than him driving ANY DAY OF THE WEEK.


As for the terms I used, just because I feel they're accurate doesn't mean I hate Travis... The only thing I hate is to watch people vastly overrate their players to the point of homerism. We get annoyed when other people do it, and I feel like someone should point out to ourselves when WE do it. This doesn't mean I hate him, it just means I'm being a bit more grounded than those of you who seem to be under the impression that he's the perfect SF for this team when he's played his best ball by far off the mismatches he creates at the PF position. Call him an SF playing PF in small ball if you like, but he's played PF for us as much this year as anything and the simple fact of the matter is he's played his best from that situation both this year and in years past. At some point he's simply a skinny PF who can play some SF, whether you want to realize that or not. That's not Travis hate, that's just following what he does best on the court and where his weaknesses are the most hidden.

And Walton's Beard, I'd break down your post but what's the point, you seem to think I'm "simply wrong" or "hate" Travis, but really the problem in our communication seems to be how much of a mancrush you have on Travis and how unwilling you are to listen to any critism towards his game. So if you have something productive to say on the subject in the future that'd be great, but so far all you've managed to do is make me think you're utterly delusional about what players are or aren't good at... but hey you're the one who'd rather let Lebron drive than shoot 3s...

[Fitz303]

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For instance you seemed to think Travis couldn't do any worse than Roy and Martell did on Lebron in the 4th because he went off for 17 points... but that's completely ignoring the fact that Roy and Martell made Lebron work his ass off to get those looks and that they werent the types of looks he wants to get.

Please dont use Martell in that sentence because that just kills any point you were trying to make. LeBron made Martell look stupid all game long. Webster did not make LeBron work any harder than Outlaw. Roy didnt let him drive all that much when he was on him (minus the most crucial one), but he also kept going under the screen, which should never do against a guy like LeBron. Aldridge should be stepping out and Roy should be fighting through the pick. Nobody played LeBron Particularly well, but saying that Webster did better than Outlaw is inaccurate

[Walton'sBeard!]

Nice, gay jabs. Since you ignored 90% of what I said I will not respond to your lashing out, overly defensive rant. Better luck next time.

[Mr Odd]

The kid hits giant shots & im not just talking game winners.

If it wasnt for Travis the Blazers would of lost to Knicks on national TV.

Like it or not, hes the 3rd best player on this team.

Outlaws basketball IQ is not a issue anymore, in the past, perhaps.

Oh, and hes still very young and never had college to develop.

In short, Travis Outlaw haters should all go get bent!!

[Fitz303]

The kid hits giant shots & im not just talking game winners.

If it wasnt for Travis the Blazers would of lost to Knicks on national TV.

Like it or not, hes the 3rd best player on this team.

Outlaws basketball IQ is not a issue anymore, in the past, perhaps.

Oh, and hes still very young and never had college to develop.

In short, Travis Outlaw haters should all go get bent!!

Mr. Odd FTW

[cucad8]

In short, Travis Outlaw haters should all go get bent!!

So to point out that someone has a flaw is hating?

Show me who in here hates Travis Outlaw. Jesus, some people really need to read a thread, and people's opinions, as opposed to overreacting, and immediately thinking, 'Oh my god, they said something that Travis does bad, they must hate him!!' Sorry, I guess the best response is Travis Outlaw is a perfect human being. He can do no wrong on the basketball court. I wouldn't trade him for Lebron James right now, I would need picks to offset the superb excellence that is Travis Outlaw. We should never entertain a single deal with Travis, because there is no way to improve on the SF/PF hybrid half man half 4th quarter machine Travis Outlaw. Travis Outlaw can do no wrong. There is no flaw to Travis Outlaw. Better? I guess if I feel otherwise, I'm a hater.

[mojomarc]

Outlaws basketball IQ is not a issue anymore, in the past, perhaps.

I completely disagree. His basketball IQ is an issue and always will be an issue. Just because in the regular season he doesn't get burned by his poor decisions to force up extremely difficult shots or to drive blindly into a double team doesn't mean it's not an issue. It's just something that a playoff coach will look at to exploit. He still makes bad decisions, but he just doesn't pay for them very much at this point in the season.

[Wizenheimer]

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I completely disagree. His basketball IQ is an issue and always will be an issue. Just because in the regular season he doesn't get burned by his poor decisions to force up extremely difficult shots or to drive blindly into a double team doesn't mean it's not an issue. It's just something that a playoff coach will look at to exploit. He still makes bad decisions, but he just doesn't pay for them very much at this point in the season.

I'm not saying this to be argumentative...but I'm really not sure what is meant by basketball IQ

I mean the example you gave about driving in to double-teams could apply to brandon, blake, sergio, jack, and lately martell. That all do it occasionally, so is it really a question of intelligence?

When LMA continues to 'settle' for jump shots, is that a failure of IQ?

or when all the blazers fail to block out on their defensive boards is that bad IQ?

honestly, I don't know what exactly it means or if it's a generic term to be appled to any dumb play

[SoHo]

I don't think mancrush is a gay jab fyi, it's just saying you dig the guy's game a bit beyond reason. For instance I have a relative mancrush on Mike Conley, because I value him a lot more than the average person.

Honestly I think the problem with this whole discussion is that Travis' recent play has been outstanding to the point that some of us are willing to dismiss his shortcomings. He isn't a great defender, Salem and Cucad are right about that. He is athletic and agile enough to get the block sometimes, but he certainly isn't the best man to man defender on our team. If you honestly think he did a better job on Bron than Roy or Webster then why didn't he guard him on the last possession?

That said, his impact on our team this season is undeniable. He has won us games, and he has been one of the bright spots on a very surprising team. He is one of the few players that has developed his game enough to play in isolation and create his own shot.

My personal difference from a lot of posters is that I think his role will become less and less as we move forward.

[DmoneyH3]

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Do you have a point here other than to say something completely asinine?

Look, I think a few people are missing my point on this thread... the idea isn't that I'm suggesting we trade Travis, as I do see his value. The point i'm trying to make is that over the past several weeks we've gotten to the point where we've valued his contributions more than we realistically probably should. We seem to be under the impression that Travis is as important to this teams future as anyone not named Oden or Roy. Travis is a nice piece and his personality is a good fit... but that doesn't change the fact that he has his limitations and that he will probably NEVER be our starting SF(or PF) for any reason other than injuries due to his personality and his asthema.

Basically I feel like we've been overvaluing his contributions in large part due to his 4th quarter heroics this year and the large time investment we have in him. I really don't think Travis will be as valuable for us next year unless he has either Oden or LMA on the bench for most of the 4th. That's not to say he can't be a big contributor, but we have something like 11 guys projected to be big contributors the next 2 years and really only have PT for 8 or 9 of them and it's definately not realistic to try to call 1/3 of our active roster untouchable(counting Oden as active) - which is a word that's been thrown around for Travis far far too much lately.

chill dude, i was just giving you a hard time...
and yes Trav plays great D..anyone else see him lock down Dirk earlier this year?

[Fitz303]

I don't think mancrush is a gay jab fyi, it's just saying you dig the guy's game a bit beyond reason. For instance I have a relative mancrush on Mike Conley, because I value him a lot more than the average person.

Honestly I think the problem with this whole discussion is that Travis' recent play has been outstanding to the point that some of us are willing to dismiss his shortcomings. He isn't a great defender, Salem and Cucad are right about that. He is athletic and agile enough to get the block sometimes, but he certainly isn't the best man to man defender on our team. If you honestly think he did a better job on Bron than Roy or Webster then why didn't he guard him on the last possession?

That said, his impact on our team this season is undeniable. He has won us games, and he has been one of the bright spots on a very surprising team. He is one of the few players that has developed his game enough to play in isolation and create his own shot.

My personal difference from a lot of posters is that I think his role will become less and less as we move forward.

Again, Webster got bent over by Lebron worse than Outlaw and thats probably a big reason why Webster wasnt on him in the last posession. Roy was on him because he is a good defender, and if Outlaw was on him then that would have left Roy to guard Drew Gooden.

[Walton'sBeard!]

I don't think mancrush is a gay jab fyi, it's just saying you dig the guy's game a bit beyond reason. For instance I have a relative mancrush on Mike Conley, because I value him a lot more than the average person.

Honestly I think the problem with this whole discussion is that Travis' recent play has been outstanding to the point that some of us are willing to dismiss his shortcomings. He isn't a great defender, Salem and Cucad are right about that. He is athletic and agile enough to get the block sometimes, but he certainly isn't the best man to man defender on our team. If you honestly think he did a better job on Bron than Roy or Webster then why didn't he guard him on the last possession?

That said, his impact on our team this season is undeniable. He has won us games, and he has been one of the bright spots on a very surprising team. He is one of the few players that has developed his game enough to play in isolation and create his own shot.

My personal difference from a lot of posters is that I think his role will become less and less as we move forward.

Is this directed at me? When someone says I am praising a player because of a mancrush I don't know how else to interpret that.

I never called him a great defender. I said he is an average defender on a team of average defenders. Having had more time to think about it, I'd say that Przybilla is a good defender and much better than Travis, but he is probably the only Blazer that I can say that about until Oden plays. And I didn't say he would have done better on Bron, I said he could not have done worse. Why he wasn't guarding on the last possession? I have no clue. Bad coaching perhaps. Personally I would have had a double team on him at the point of attack.