Enough is enough- rebuild NOW please!

[bryant08]

I think people are losing sight of what the word rebuild means though. If we are trying to rebuild TOTALLY, and start off with a fresh group of solid prospects, you deal Kaberle first. Obviously that's not what I'm implying, but I think people want more of a retool, than a rebuild. Moving Kaberle would be the first step in a long process to garner more prospects/picks, but if we are truly building the foundation, then it has to be done.

I'm more in favour of re-tooling around all of our prospects, and of course those few roster players that would have to be kept (Kaberle, Steen, Stajan) to help through the rebuilding process. But at this point, certain guys can't be moved. And those are the Tuckers, Blakes, McCabes (more value to us), and Kubinas. These guys don't all have NMCs/NTCs (I believe 3 do), but we won't be getting fair value back. They are move valuable to us, than others.

[Andiamo]

how bout we trade all of our so called stars bring in a bunch of kids,picks and re-tool.....its that simple.jfj and mlse are pathetic.we aint winnin f-all with mats,darcy,raycrap,blake,and ian white.BLOW IT UP.

[Andiamo]

LMFAO....4-0 after the 1st period to the kings....and to top it off its on leaf tv....imagine u paid for that crap..i hate the leafs.

[emfive]

-= original quote snipped =-



Aside from Sundin, he is far and away the best player the Leafs have. Sure, he's not a physical presence but he's a great skater, makes great decisions with the puck, and is generally a smart player. Pair him with another high calibre defenceman, preferably one that is physical and positionally sound, and that is a top notch lead D pairing in the NHL.

Also, his contract, unlike Kubina's and McCabe's, is reasonable.

I would, and do, advocate trading almost any Leaf ASIDE from Kaberle.

What the Leafs need is more GM's to think like this. Sorry but I will repeat that this guy has no heart. He gives up on the defensive end over and over and over again. Do you think I am unaware of his skill level? His skills will never be worth his lack of interest in front of the net. He would be the first guy I would trade, especially considering there are probably enough GM's out there who would actually give something up for him. Hell, there might even be a bidding war. But he would not play on my team when I consider what I have seen from him this season.

[Geddy]

The rebuilding process has begun - the Laffs picked up Dominic Moore off waivers!

[Tor-Rap-Tor]

I have not been in favour of totally blowing up the team but the 2 losses in California, have shown, that something definitely has to be done and now...

Management has got to be the target and JFJ has run his course and is a lame duck GM and must be replaced, so too Paul Maurice...

Top Management may be pricey but it doesn't count against the cap, we have plenty of money to pay for the best and as in the case of B.C. with the Raptors, hire the best Manager out there and then let him decide the fate of the team...

We have no Wayne Embry to get a Manager like Colangelo and maybe thats the starting point to get such a person to Guide the team, first to hire a GM and then let the GM, become the architect of that new team. He will decide ultimately, the coaches and players, that will either stay or go...

Blowing up the Team will have to start with that knowledgeable hockey mind that hires the best GM that money can buy and can sit back and not interfere, and let his GM choice make all the on ice decisions and only be there for consulting...

Now the big Question Who is that Starting Person? He has got to be special and here is where I'm at a loss, he has to be associated with winning teams and know hockey inside-out and have been hopefully a winner at all the management positions and also Let his GM choice do his job and only be there to advise...

Who to hire? Muckler, Fletcher (I would mention Scotty Bowman but I think he wants a more hands on position). Who would you think is that person?...

(Petty can look after the money side, ie: concessions and marketing and have nothing to do with the on ice decisions and with no interference)...

Trading this player or that player, without a plan going forward and then getting value for your players will only make for a mish-mash of players that have to gel together to become a team. Ultimately Sundin may have to be traded to inject some youth and talent but who here trusts, Petty, JFJ or Maurice to do that...

Not Me!...

[whysoserious]

I guess a lot more people are finally getting on board and agreeing that this team just isn't good. Even though it hasn't been since before the lockout.

The only bad thing that happened was Vesa playing unbelievably in December and masking the problems that are still evident on this team.

This team needs a full out rebuild from the top down. I've been advocating this for a few year's.

Start with Peddie, remove him from all things dealing with both franchises or any decision sports related.

Next, fire Ferguson followed by Maurice.

Then bring in someone like Muckler (not necessarily him), someone that understands the game, the cap and the situation the Leafs find themselves in. This should be a position guaranteed only for the rest of the season. Someone that possibly isn't looking to get back in the game full time but has the credentials to come do what's necessary.

Then start cleaning house. Any and anyone on the team should be available. The only ones that shouldn't be moved are Steen, Stajan, Tlusty and possibly Kaberle. No prospects should be moved.

Package off as many guys and get as many picks and prospects back as you can along with player's on short term deals, no more than till the end of the year or if need be next season.

Those that can't be moved, send them down for good, like Raycroft.

Bring up as many youngsters in the orgnaization that are close to NHL ready and just let them play for the rest of the season. No expectations, just have fun and start looking and preparing for next season.

In the meantime, start an extensive search for rebuilding the entire hockey department starting at the top. I've said before, my preference is Scotty Bowman, but doesn't necessarily have to be him. Maybe Rick Dudley in Tampa, if in the off-season Burke is looking for a change he'd be a candidate.

This should be the most coveted spot in hockey, start treating it like that and start hiring the best.

Once you hire that person, get the F*** out of his way and let him do his job.

[mun]

Tor-Rap-Tor wrote

I have not been in favour of totally blowing up the team but the 2 losses in California, have shown, that something definitely has to be done and now...

It took you up until these last two losses to realize that this team needs to be blown up?

That right there is the problem with Leaf fans.


This needed a total revamping after the lockout. This team is a joke. Mistake after mistake after mistake. And now our latest great mistake. Bring up Pogge our supposed saviour during the WORST time of the year.

But hey it's okay we still have Alex Steen who is more valuable than Chris Pronger and is untouchable

[kelso]

Tor-Rap-Tor wrote

I have not been in favour of totally blowing up the team but the 2 losses in California, have shown, that something definitely has to be done and now...

It took you up until these last two losses to realize that this team needs to be blown up?

That right there is the problem with Leaf fans.


This needed a total revamping after the lockout. This team is a joke. Mistake after mistake after mistake. And now our latest great mistake. Bring up Pogge our supposed saviour during the WORST time of the year.

But hey it's okay we still have Alex Steen who is more valuable than Chris Pronger and is untouchable

C'mon....you would rather have Pronger than Steen and Kaberle? What has Pronger ever done? He's just got a Stanley Cup ring, Norris trophy, Hart trophy, multiple plus-minus titles, plays 30 minutes a night on D, is tough as nails and has great leadership ability.

But with Steen we have a solid 3rd/4th liner who you can pencil in for 15 goals, and at least 8-10 bodychecks a year. Hell, he can even play the point on the power play now. Oh, and I forgot our All-star D Kaberle- where do I start with him? He's a great offensive talent who has the best looking jerseys at the end of every season because he doesn't do anything at all close to resembling dirty work out there. Just ask anyone in the Leafs front office about him and they'll tell you how good he is.

We're soooo much better off not having made that deal.

[Crowned]

You do realize that Kaberle is wisely considered a top defenseman in the league, right?

Provided his contract and skillset, we'd get a fantastic package in exchange for him, much more than Sundin would fetch.

I'd go either way with Kaberle. We could keep him, and allow him to develop with our youngsters (provided we do formally rebuild), or trade him and recieve an excellent package in return.

[kelso]

You do realize that Kaberle is wisely considered a top defenseman in the league, right?

Provided his contract and skillset, we'd get a fantastic package in exchange for him, much more than Sundin would fetch.

I'd go either way with Kaberle. We could keep him, and allow him to develop with our youngsters (provided we do formally rebuild), or trade him and recieve an excellent package in return.

My tongue was firmly planted in my cheek for most of that. I like your posts and respect your opinion, but with all due respect, Kaberle is not in Pronger's league, not even close. if we could have had a Pronger for Kaberle swap with the cost being Steen, that deal has to be done.

[Crowned]

-= original quote snipped =-



My tongue was firmly planted in my cheek for most of that. I like your posts and respect your opinion, but with all due respect, Kaberle is not in Pronger's league, not even close. if we could have had a Pronger for Kaberle swap with the cost being Steen, that deal has to be done.

I never said Kaberle was in his 'league' or anywhere close to it, as most players aren't. Nor did I say we should've rejected a Pronger- Kaberle/Steen swap. I strongly believe that Pronger would've elevated McCabe's play as well.

However, Kaberle IS considered a top defenseman in the league, and holds strong value. Could we recieve a good package in return for him? Absolutely. We'd have to strongly pursue a deal for Kaberle if we'd like to rebuild the franchise, as we'd get some very good pieces in return.

[Tor-Rap-Tor]

It took you up until these last two losses to realize that this team needs to be blown up?

That right there is the problem with Leaf fans.


This needed a total revamping after the lockout. This team is a joke. Mistake after mistake after mistake. And now our latest great mistake. Bring up Pogge our supposed saviour during the WORST time of the year.

But hey it's okay we still have Alex Steen who is more valuable than Chris Pronger and is untouchable

In spite of being labeled a typical wait and see Leaf fan, I agree the team needs an overhaul and has for some time...

You should also see that we haven't won the cup since 1967 and so, one could say that then was the critical time, with the dealing of Keon and the sale of our entire farm team, that was when we should have started rebuilding but Then came the Ballard years, then Stavros, then The Teachers Pension Fund, on and on the crap is never ending but both you and I are still Fans of this messed up money making franchise...

You pointed to the problem, after the lockout things have changed, gone are the days of buying our way out of problems and spending large sums for players, that could be had because of other teams restrictions and financial woes, teams that would deal a player, to rid themselves of a contract and not lose any more money. Now cap is King and not making the play-offs critical and getting a player has to be weighed against the cap...

Blowing up a team is not easy and before you point to the great job the Flyers did, they may make the play-offs but lets see what they do this year because they are not going to the show and still have lots of holes and uprades to do, granted they did a good job but point to other teams, that have made great strides, not many, all are restricted by the cap and Parity is the Key word...

As I stated above, start with the best hockey mind and let him make the decisions, MLSE only sees the bottom line and having an economist like Peddie in charge of hockey operations is ludicrous, money he knows, hockey he knows as much as you and I do (and so too 90% of all the Media Pundits, I Might add)...

[mun]

Tor-Rap-Tor wrote

Blowing up a team is not easy and before you point to the great job the Flyers did, they may make the play-offs but lets see what they do this year because they are not going to the show and still have lots of holes and uprades to do, granted they did a good job but point to other teams, that have made great strides, not many, all are restricted by the cap and Parity is the Key word...

See again you're rationalizing. All teams are restricted by the cap to a certain extent BUT teams become even more restricted when they:

1)shell out no trade clauses to Mats Sundin, Bryan McCabe, Darcy Tucker and Pavel Kubina (am I missing anyone?)

2) overpay players that are not worth it, i.e. Tucker, Blake, Kubina, and McCabe

3) trade there limited pool of assets for short-term fixes i.e. Raycroft for Rask, Toskala for a 1st rounder (which could have landed us Esposito)

4) overrated your own talent i.e. the untouchable Steen, Stajan, Wellwood, Coliacovo etc

Now I could care less if the Flyers do or do not make the playoffs this year and whether or not they do or do not have holes and need to upgrade. The point is they were ACTIVE! They have a vision! They took the worst team last year with older players and dumped salary and then they accumulated assets and rebounded. Now they are on the right path to competition in the next 3-4 years or even sooner they will be a top tier team in the Eastern conference.

But hey we picked up Dominic Moore today, he'll be another solid addition to the Toronto Marlies.

[zong]

trading Sundin + Raycroft for Staal + Esposito + random picks may be the best choice we have right now

trading mccabe to the rangers for marc staal + overpaid filler is good as well, I like the consistency of this staal, he'll finally be the defensive anchor of our blue line in the future

getting rid of kaberle, white, and tucker to the red wings for darren helm, jakub kindl, overpaid fillers will get us the future players we need as well

then trade people for picks, keep tlusty, stralman, pogge, and draft stamkos + tavares, sign Phaneuf, and we'll be ready to compete again in a few years!

[emfive]

Who the H would want to manage this team? Did you hear Peddie talking about the GM needing to go to the board. Remember when Gainey came to interview in TO? Good luck my friends. Until Peddie is fired (I wish the law would allow for some sort of physical punishment ... 5 lashes with a cat o nine tails by every Leaf subscriber would be fair)nothing ... I mean NOTHING positive can happen.

[kelso]

-= original quote snipped =-




I never said Kaberle was in his 'league' or anywhere close to it, as most players aren't. Nor did I say we should've rejected a Pronger- Kaberle/Steen swap. I strongly believe that Pronger would've elevated McCabe's play as well.

However, Kaberle IS considered a top defenseman in the league, and holds strong value. Could we recieve a good package in return for him? Absolutely. We'd have to strongly pursue a deal for Kaberle if we'd like to rebuild the franchise, as we'd get some very good pieces in return.

Agreed. He has high consideration and value, however I think his play in his own end is way too suspect for him to be a 1 or 2 on this team. Somewhere else, where strong D already exist, his value is different and he would fetch us a decent return.

[Tor-Rap-Tor]

See again you're rationalizing. All teams are restricted by the cap to a certain extent BUT teams become even more restricted when they:

1)shell out no trade clauses to Mats Sundin, Bryan McCabe, Darcy Tucker and Pavel Kubina (am I missing anyone?)

2) overpay players that are not worth it, i.e. Tucker, Blake, Kubina, and McCabe

3) trade there limited pool of assets for short-term fixes i.e. Raycroft for Rask, Toskala for a 1st rounder (which could have landed us Esposito)

4) overrated your own talent i.e. the untouchable Steen, Stajan, Wellwood, Coliacovo etc

Now I could care less if the Flyers do or do not make the playoffs this year and whether or not they do or do not have holes and need to upgrade. The point is they were ACTIVE! They have a vision! They took the worst team last year with older players and dumped salary and then they accumulated assets and rebounded. Now they are on the right path to competition in the next 3-4 years or even sooner they will be a top tier team in the Eastern conference.

But hey we picked up Dominic Moore today, he'll be another solid addition to the Toronto Marlies.

I do Rationalize and take a Rational approach to the situation...

The players you have named as over paid, worthless and non tradable are not at all as bad as you paint them but I do agree that giving them No Trade Clauses, seems excessive but it is becoming a standard procedure throughout the league to do so, I read recently that there are about 15% of all contracts that contain it (sorry no link)...

When we vilify players like Tucker, Blake, Kubina, and McCabe, remember Larry Murphy a D we picked up and booed relentlessly until he was traded to Detroit, where he played a few more years winning 2 Stanley Cups in the process and was named to the the Hall of Fame...
http://www.legendsofhockey.net:8080/Leg ... ayer=11161

I tend to think the problem lies more with the coaching and less with the abilities of the players, Maurice in my Opinion has lost the player's confidence and his System, is either too complicated and the players don't get it, or it doesn't work, either way there are more problems, than just the players...

Trading Rask for Raycroft was a gaff at least in hindsight but we still needed a goal tender and trading our picks for Toskala and Bell was in my opinion a good move, as much as I like Esposito, he doesn't play goal and how many would want more of Raycroft as our #1 goal tender, also ask yourself why Esposito was taken so late in the draft...

Flyers are not an elite team yet and it remains to be seen if they ever will be, time will tell but I agree, they have made a good start...

Before we become active and trading players willy nilly, like Mike Millbury was noted for, ie: Spezza for Yashin and tons more, Millbury was very active and accomlished nothing, in my opinion but he certainly moved players and is currently in broadcasting (good place for him) however if we want a trading GM look no further, he is available. In reality we need a plan going forward and some astute and proven hockey people to guide it starting at the top...

Dominic Moore may not be a household name but he certainly is an upgrade on our 4th line from what we have. I understand talking to people, that are more familiar with him, that his play is, as relentless checker and an above average face-off man, he easily can replace John Pohl and he virtually cost us nothing, having been picked off the waiver wire...

I completely understand your and others frustration and I share with you the need to do something but lets do it right once and build a team, that will be a competing team for years to come, not a team that will have to be blown up again in a few years because it doesn't work, lets get a team that you add to through the draft and by making small trades to tweak an area that needs it, not a team, that will probably be forced to deal it's top player for picks and prospects in hopes this will solve all the problems somewhere down the road and try to make block buster trades that usually, nets you other players, deemed expendable by their teams...

[Griff83]

trading Sundin + Raycroft for Staal + Esposito + random picks may be the best choice we have right now

trading mccabe to the rangers for marc staal + overpaid filler is good as well, I like the consistency of this staal, he'll finally be the defensive anchor of our blue line in the future

getting rid of kaberle, white, and tucker to the red wings for darren helm, jakub kindl, overpaid fillers will get us the future players we need as well

then trade people for picks, keep tlusty, stralman, pogge, and draft stamkos + tavares, sign Phaneuf, and we'll be ready to compete again in a few years!

ya im sure the Rangers will agree to this trade.

[bryant08]

trading Sundin + Raycroft for Staal + Esposito + random picks may be the best choice we have right now

trading mccabe to the rangers for marc staal + overpaid filler is good as well, I like the consistency of this staal, he'll finally be the defensive anchor of our blue line in the future

getting rid of kaberle, white, and tucker to the red wings for darren helm, jakub kindl, overpaid fillers will get us the future players we need as well

then trade people for picks, keep tlusty, stralman, pogge, and draft stamkos + tavares, sign Phaneuf, and we'll be ready to compete again in a few years!

O god, just because Esposito said it would happen, doesn't mean it would. Despite Staal having a bad season, they won't give him up this easy for a rental like Sundin. I would even go as low as Staal for Sundin straight up, with a conditional 1st if Sundin re-signs. But I still doubt Pittsburgh woul go for that. And as for Marc Staal coming back for McCabe, good luck. Sign Phaneuf? Are you out of your mind? That's unrealistic, and it costs us A LOT. If he even goes to RFA, he'll cost $7M+, and 4 1st rounders. Dear god, this is the most unrealistic plan I've ever seen.

And I believe if Sundin is moved, then we'll see a decent package coming in return, but for the Leafs to truly get the value of it, we'll see a few conditional picks. Teams are always wary of rentals, and condition picks are a way to prevent them for leaving. But Sundin still could help us out, get us a good return, and then return in the offseason