Donte Greene

[SactownHrtBrks8]

I agree he does have upside

I think his love for the outside shot has too be with the fact that it is really unguardable. In college there weren't a lot of guys who could get to his shot and really contest it because he is tall and lengthy. He's just going to have to learn the game and I think he will be fine and can turn in to a more completely offensive player. Defensively i like this size. His length could bother people on the wing. If he is willing to work i see no reason he can't be an above average or great defender.

So with Hawes, Thomspon, Greene, Martin, Garcia i like what we are doing. Williams can end up being a great backup if we keep him around. Same with Douby.

[OGSactownballer]

Basically what Geoff is doing here is rebuilding this team with a LOT more length and size than we have had since 2004, and this is a MUST if you are going to compete at the top levels in the NBA. Keep in mind also, that when you have long, quick ATHLETIC guys, and a good fundamentals coach, then you have the luxury of teaching them to play great TEAM defense (see the Detroit Pistons), and nobody necessarily has to be a GREAT individual defender just GOOD.

[VeeJay24]

You know this view of this guy can't play defense or fit next to Kevin is getting old and tired.

No one knows if this guy can play with anyone on this team that goes for Hawes or Thompson. The way I see.....every last one of these guys are really complimentary players, so hopefully none of them have any grand illusions of being the so called man. Hopefully, they're all unselfish and will sacrifice parts of their games to make it work.

These are young athletic guys who are really just learning how to play in the NBA. They will grow together. That means they can learn how to make the proper decisions and rotations on defense.

So can we please stop that this guy can't play next to Kevin crap!!!!!! Let's take a wait and see attitude and at least wait until the coaching staff let's Greene or whoever know what they expect from them.

And if anybody knows Petrie, they know he will always err on the side of offense. Meaning he likes guys that can score the basketball. He hopes that they will become adequate on the defensive end. And the way I see it there is no reason why guys like Kevin Martin, Jason Thompson, or Donte Greene couldn't become good defenders. They all have the athletic tools to do so. Plus when you have a great defensive scheme a la the Boston Celtics it can mask some of those individual deficiencies.

[pillwenney]

I think the main thing is that, regardless, it's good to have a primary perimeter defender. I'm not saying that none of our current guys can be that, just that defense can only be "learned" so much. All of the guys we're discussing can be good defenders, but can any of them be really, really good defenders? I don't know. Greene is athletic, but will he be quick enough laterally to consistently and effectively guard SFs? I don't know. And Kevin can use his great quickness as an asset defensively (if he decides to put a lot more focus on it than he has so far), but will he ever be strong enough to be a really good defender against bigger SGs and SFs?

A lot of this remains to be seen. But my point is that it's not just something that you can just assume will be fine. And as of right now, I think the ideal option if we trade Salmons (of course that's not at all close to definite) will be starting Cisco with Kevin and bringing Greene off the bench as a supersub playing both forward spots. We already know that Cisco can be a very good defender, and he's probably a better fit next to Kevin offensively (is also a great outside shooter, but will defer to Kevin and can take some ballhandling responsibilities). But of course, we have a lot of waiting and seeing to do.

[Ballings7]

Dude, people waaay over analyze the defensive aspect of basketball. I am sure the hope is that they both become adequate defenders in the coming years.

Well, we are definitely going to need a better than just "adequate" defender at SF next to Kevin. Not only as a team-defender, but a guy who can take the other team's best SF or SG, on a game to game basis. Maybe even PGs or certain PFs, depending on how versatile the guy would be, but of course primarily SG/SF.

Kevin's not going to be counted on to do the aformentioned, if anything, that would be on occasion (like he's done against Ray Allen 2 or 3 times).

Kevin's defensive situation I'm not concerned about, he has some improvement to do with consistency and focus, but he has been pretty respectable, and some times better than that. He's going to have to be at least average, usually, and then pick his spots to really commit on defense (for example like he did against D-Wade on a last shot possession in 06-07). Because his primary role and focus is scoring, and to a lesser degree setting up others (from what has been there up to now, and likely improvement) - offense.

We will have a key flaw, if we have a guy next to Kevin who can't really defend, or is pretty limited defensively. It's ultimately all about team defense, but you still need skilled defenders here and there, on your squad. One of those required is a guy in the starting line-up at SG/SF.

Not necessarily meaning for the near future, but eventually, we're going to need that defensive anchor on the wing to complement Kevin. And most likely, Kevin's going to be around with this team for awhile.

I would doubt Greene is going to be "limited defensively". The kid does have some very good athleticism and I think he'll be just fine.

I agree in the general sense he'll be able to do multiple things defensively, but in the context being discussed here, of a long-term starting SF? That is questionable at best, we'll have to see how laterally quick he is, as well as how he goes mentally (to a lesser degree).

If he doesn't have the foot speed, especially as he adds weight, to defend wing-players (not just SFs, this going back to Kevin's role), then he won't be our starting SF, in the long-term sense. Maybe ever. Unless he turns out like a 6'10" Ron Artest, in terms of having an above-average frame for a SF, to go along with above-average lateral quickness. But that isn't something of an expectation.

Out-look, I still sway to Greene being a unique, athletic foward off the bench because of his physical situation, not a regular starter at either foward spot. If we were going to be a team like the 05-07 Suns, or the Warriors, then, he'd be our future starting PF - but we aren't going to go like any of those teams (thankfully).

Time will tell, though.

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And, I'm not saying we need a "great" defender next to Kevin, but somebody at least in the form of a well-rounded, good defender. The mandatory requirement in there though, is being able to guard SGs and SFs. If Kevin can turn out like Rip Hamilton as a man defender, who is underrated and pretty good there, then that's great, it only makes things better and easier defensively. But even if Kevin would turn out like that (which is still too early to say), just in general, you should just look to get a guy who will be your consistent defensive wing option, and can credibly fill that role.

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Good post, mitch.

[Cruel_Ruin]

I think the need for a "defensive stopper" is overrated. We've had a former DPOY in Artest for the last few years and that did jack **** for our defense in general. Personally, I think great defenses are built from having great defensive big men. From that, you need quick guys on the perimeter who can rotate well. Once you have that kind of personnel, it's up to the coaching staff to put together a disciplined system to make it all work. Look at the Celtics, they put together the best defense of the past decade, around KG and Perkins, though I wouldn't call either Pierce or Allen defensive stoppers.

Looking at our squad, we have Thompson and Hawes in the paint. I doubt either of them will become elite defensively, but both should be above average to good. Then, on the perimeter we have Martin and Greene, who are both long and athletic and could learn to rotate effectively with some coaching. We may never become an elite defensive team, but I can see these guys becoming solid.

[Ballings7]

Yes, that's how it is, your big men (starting, mainly) ultimately dictate your defensive level.

But, that definitely isn't any reason not to find a guy who will be your consistent perimeter defensive guy. You still need somebody who's capable of guarding the other team's best wing scorer on a game to game basis. Consequently, because of who they're guarding, that guy has to be good and pretty well-rounded defensively.

Why not look to have somebody like that at SF? Especially when they are pretty easy to find (and aren't liabilities offensively at the same time, varying levels there). Especially when it makes your team better defensively, better as a whole, and better complements the typically lesser defensive guy at the other big wing spot. Especially when Greene is questionable at best defensively, as a SF.

Now, if you just can't get somebody in there for the short-term, okay. But, why not continue to look for that wing-man, eventually find one because of the SG/SF pool of diverse talent, and why settle with not really having that guy on your team? While it may still be fine without that guy, in not having a substantial weakness, I don't think there's any reason not to do the latter, because you can easily be better in doing so.

I don't think Petrie and Theus' first option in building a key part of the starting line-up is to settle.

====================================

The Celtics had that guy in Paul Pierce. If you watched and payed attention enough to Boston (as I did), he took the majority of the top wing player individual assignments. Especially in the playoffs... LeBron, Kobe, Prince.

Paul Pierce has had the ability to be a significant, all-around defensive player, has shown it at times during his career, but never has been able to consistently. This is because, most of his time in the league he had to expend more energy and focus on offense. Especially in most recent seasons. As well as not usually having at least a solid defensive team around him. Everything came together for him last year, and now, to the point where he can fully utilize his basketball ability.

It goes hand in hand... without Paul Pierce at SF and somebody lesser defensively, or Paul Pierce not being as good of a defender as he is for some reason, it's a different situation for the Celtics. Same thing goes with a decreased team defensive effectiveness and committment. Pierce was a key to their defense, so was Perkins, so was KG, so was Posey, so was Rondo, etc. They were all important to making up their defense.

They also had James Posey, while not quick enough laterally to consistently man defend the top SG/SFs, he was the secondary guy there (part of his versatility) to help out at times, and give a different look. Posey's better as a man defender with less movement (in the post, for example). Overall, he's a better team defender than a man defender.

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Boston, like most legit, good teams, had their main defensive guys for the big wing spots...

Suns: Majerle, Bell. Bell, was not as impactful as he could of been because of the Suns iffy interior and team defensive situation over the years, the point is, they still had that guy in the form of a defensive stand-out.

Miami: Majerle, Askins, Bowen, Posey, Payton (indeed, and succeeded in this part of his role)

Kings: Christie, Jim Jackson

Pistons: Dumars, Rodman (not your typical wing-defender, but it was a part of his multi-dimensonal ability), Prince

Spurs: Elie, Bowen, Udoka.. obviously in 99 it was all about Duncan and Robinson, but Elie was still there next to Elliott.

Pacers: McKey, Mitchell (early-mid 90s), Artest. In the latter 90s-00, they didn't really have a noted wing presence defensively, starting, with McKey's role decreasing. But they didn't have to with their size, toughness, and chemistry.

Knicks: McDaniel, Harper, Starks, Sprewell

76ers: B. Jones, Mckie, Snow, Lynch, Bell

Mavs (06): Griffin, Howard

04 T'Wolves: Sprewell, Hassell - we, unfortunately, saw this first-hand in 04 with Bibby (Spree) and Peja (Hassell).

Jazz: Byron Russell, Shandon Anderson

Rockets: Elie, Battier, Artest (obviously a special situation now for them here, but still, there is that presence)

Lakers: Cooper, Scott, Fox, George, Kobe, Sasha, Ariza (for the future, but it depends how his 3PT shot goes now in being able to start, probably finish games, and have the most impact he can have)

Cleveland in 2007, is an example of a true team defense. Not quite having a stand-out individual defender (though Pavlovic at times did, and Illgauskas is definitely nice at center). Since then LeBron's begun to emerge a lot more as a defender overall, a big part of that being taking the 4th qtr best wing-player assignment (as well as continued improvement as a team defender), and excelling. But the problem is they didn't and have not really improved upon where they were in 07, while the conference got tougher. Thus not being a credible team anymore, until they get better offensively. Specifically needing that 2nd offensive creator, to make things easier on LeBron, and so he is less ball dominant.

Once again (like with having significant interior defense), there is a historical, current, and of course future, trend.

Like I said earlier, it's mainly about team defense, but within that team defense, you need notable individual defenders scattered on your team. Which, whoever those guys are, plays a key part in how good your team defense is, bcause of their lone ability, and how that also influences the effectiveness of the team defense. Typically, a starting SG/SF will be included there, should be, and really can be.

Replace the relatively significant defensive players on various teams with lesser defenders (not just on the perimeter, but in general), combined with the other lesser defenders on the team? Those teams are quite different in how good they are defensively, where they rank in the league, and how far they went/can go in the playoffs.

[KF10]

Ok. I do agree that we need a defensive wingman to compliment Martin. Donte Greene has the tools to be a versatile defensive player at the small/power forward position. But as is right now, it is iffy at best. Well, the Kings are in rebuilding mode, I would look at prospects or establish defenders that could be ideal for the team. Having a defensive swingman isn't enough to make this team more defense. We need various players to commit playing D.

Looking at the past. The 02-03 team was the best defensive team in the NBA at the time. (Defensive %) We had Doug Christie(Our main perimeter defender), Bobby Jackson (Our on-ball bench defender), Keon Clark (Our lanky, hustling versatile bench defender), Jim Jackson (Above average bench defender), Scot Pollard (Our post bench defender), Funderburke (Serviceable bench defender).

That 2nd unit of the Kings team were significant for the Kings success. Everyone played defense to some extent. That alone create effectiveness in terms of slowing down the opposition. That consistent effort is needed.

So, again, we need various defenders to enhance team defense.

The players we have that plays consistent defense are:

Salmons
Garcia
Moore
Williams
Jackson
Douby
Thomas

We know Salmons is a very good versatile defender at the 1-2-3 position and as well as Garcia. Moore is an above average defender at best. His length/lankiness harasses the opposition. Williams, our strong post defender clogger type of player. Jackson, well, he is not the defender couple years ago but he is still effective IMO. Douby is actually a good on ball defender, his wingspan is HUGE. Thomas, even though he is in the doghouse, he is a good post defender. He uses his quickness to defender the faster PFs in the league and does a solid job.

But even with those players, we are not close enough being a defensive minded team. Especially, losing our best defender in Artest. We need complimentary defensive players that could contribute on the court. If we leave our players as is, we are not going to play consistent defense.

Well, I would be ok, if we play adaptive defense. Like the 02-03 Kings. Adaptive defense is we focus on great defense in a particular (significant) situation. We would be playing as a defensive unit for consecutive possession and make an offensive burst. Then, we continue on playing the game with ok (Not great D but not bad D) defense. Playing adaptive defense is a little riskier but a team has to be balance enough to do it. Like that Kings team. They were both great in defense/offense.

Our young players (Donte/Thompson/Williams/Hawes) will need to be able to play consistent defense to an extent to make this team formidable defensive unit in the future. I feel that we will have a good defensive unit in the future and of course, Petrie, will get other defensive players as well to make this team ideal.

[VeeJay24]

A lot of what you say is true, Ballings and since it seems that most around here is giving the mantle of best player on the team to Martin. He needs to step up and take on that responsibility.

Just like Pierce, just like Kobe, unlike McGrady which may say someting about him never leaving the 1st round and also says something about the Rockets getting Artest to play the part of Pippen.

I am also on the side of a defensive stopper being overrated especially needing one in the starting lineup. Sure, it wouldn't hurt but I think the guys that Petrie have assembled although offensively inclined, they are athletic enough to become more than adequate on defense. Becoming a great defensive team is a part of growth which this team will have to do anyway. Don't get me wrong I am all for a Posey or Battier type player coming off the bench. But what good is a defensive stopper if the other players don't know how to rotate or play team defense? I think the most important thing is preaching good defense and coming up with a scheme that works and that the players will buy into.

I am of the opinion that their is no reason why Martin & Greene couldn't become above average defenders with desire and work. They both are athletically capable. I think Greene will be a small forward period. I think he's one of those guys that has a basketball body. He will probably have that thin frame for practically his whole career, same as Prince.

[pillwenney]

I don't think anybody is saying that commitment to defense and proper knowledge and awareness are not completely vital in a championship-caliber defense--they are the most important parts of it. But having some natural defensive talent wouldn't hurt either (not saying we don't already have that--it's just too early to tell).

[VeeJay24]

I don't think anybody is saying that commitment to defense and proper knowledge and awareness are not completely vital in a championship-caliber defense--they are the most important parts of it. But having some natural defensive talent wouldn't hurt either (not saying we don't already have that--it's just too early to tell).

But what some are saying is a guy can't play next to Kevin because he isn't a so called defensive stopper. Just trying to dispel that myth.

[Ballings7]

The right kind of scheme shouldn't be a concern, unless we just get stupid and aren't going to be disciplined. As a whole defensively with various situations, and gambling for steals and blocks too much.

Kevin, even if he does become a defender like a Kobe/Pierce/LeBron (in the way of mind-set and being capable) - he will be more limited to who he can guard, compared to those three, because of his size. So, even with that, if we don't have a guy at SF who can take the guy Kevin can't match-up with, either because the SF is physically limited to guard the guy Kevin can't guard, or he just isn't a good defender, then that puts the team at a consistent disadvantage defensively. Being tough to adjust to. Where, at least it would be easier on the team, to allow for more room to recover (team and individually-wise), allowing for more room to be effective (ditto), without a regular, basically clear match-up advantage for the other team. Because having a consistently capable, flexible defender on the wing solves that issue, improving the team's defensive ability, and improving the compatability with Kevin.

Another thing that would come up, is while to a lesser degree, because it's not as common on teams--what would be even worse, is if Kevin can't match up with somebody, and then neither could the guy at SF (say, Greene quite possibly). What happens because of that is too much to overcome as a team defensively. The other team probably wins the game/series.

But that situation with Kevin is questionable.

I'm just very iffy on a Greene/Kevin defensive wing pairing. Each have their own concerns and questions. I also don't buy or sway to, that Greene's going to be this team's long-term starting SF. I think that's too early to say, and time will tell.

But what some are saying is a guy can't play next to Kevin because he isn't a so called defensive stopper. Just trying to dispel that myth.

But it's not like finding somebody who has that quality overall defense in their game is tough to find. There are several of those kind of players around, and it goes in a continuous cycle each draft.

[pillwenney]

The thing is, I agree with the notion first off that the premire perimeter defender doesn't necessarily have to start, and I think we have Salmons and Cisco who may be able to fit that role rather effectively.

[SactownHrtBrks8]

I'd rather not nitpick. First you get the talent, then you see if the talent can become quality talent by developing your players, then you see if you can become a good team, then you worry about fits and all that crap

[mobiuseinz]

Ballings, Greene's scouting reports said that he has the tools to be good defensively... so lets see him develop first, and then judge later.

[nolimit0820]

Having someone like a James Posey off the bench would also get the job done. Bench players for the most part are specialty players, ones that cover up the deficiencies of others.

[RoyalCourtJestr]

Both Garcia and Salmons are good to above average on ball defenders, so I don't see that big of a problem, especially when we still haven't seen how Greene can use his talents.

[SacKingZZZ]

If these last few years taught us anything it's that:

Team defense >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Individual defense

I don't see any reason physically why Greene can't become a solid defensive player. Kevin has also made it clear he is determined to become the one to take on the toughest assignment every night. Hey, he's proven everybody wrong before, I wouldn't put it past him to do it again.

[JN]

A poor man's Tim Thomas coming out of college. Similar attitudes, games. and laziness coming out of the NCAA, except Thomas was a better and more efficient scorer, a better rebounder, a better team player, a better defender, and a better athlete.... and I guess that's why he went much higher in the draft.... but the attitude and laziness always stayed there. Perhaps Greene can overcome that. Right now he is not a good scorer. He is just a chucjker who is able to get a shot off whenever he feels like it.

[mobiuseinz]

A poor man's Tim Thomas coming out of college. Similar attitudes, games. and laziness coming out of the NCAA, except Thomas was a better and more efficient scorer, a better rebounder, a better team player, a better defender, and a better athlete.... and I guess that's why he went much higher in the draft.... but the attitude and laziness always stayed there. Perhaps Greene can overcome that. Right now he is not a good scorer. He is just a chucjker who is able to get a shot off whenever he feels like it.

Greene is not lazy, he just doesn't try hard enough. He fell in the draft because of him immaturity (he argued with a scout or coach). If he can become mentally stable then we have something special on our team.

This is how I look at our situation:

1. We have two very versatile and finesse big men. Thompson and Hawes are both tall and long. Plus Thompson can run the floor and even spread the floor with his range. Hawes is similar but he is a way better post player.

2. We have an amazing SG who can become an All-Star. Martin has all the tools... and even the quickness to become a good defender.

3. Bench play. We have a 6th man in Garcia. The dude can do it all (score, defend, set up an offense). Lets not forget Shelden williams and the possibility of Douby becoming a spark plug off the bench.

4. The wildcard Donte Greene. Donte has so much upside to become an elite scorer, and if he can develop a killer instinct... hm and Martin can be a great 1-2 punch... but then if Thompson and Hawes develop well too, we can have 4 players that can dish the ball and score it.

if Thompson can give us 17-8-2-2 in his prime and Hawes gets us 15-10-3-2 we're set. All we need is Donte to score and create open looks for others by him spreading the floor. Same with Martin, but if Donte can learn to iso and take his man off the dribble then we're even more dangerous. Donte is basically the X-Factor.