What is JaVale McGee's ceiling?

[no D in Hibachi]

Is a more athletic andrew Bynum a good comparison?

Thats a fair comp, I would say that McGee has a better shot, and the thing that really separates the two is McGee's motor. He sprints all over, almost like Chris Anderson, and brings a ton of energy to the game. Bynum is a slug, but he's much bigger. If McGee ever develops the strength of Bynum look out!

[WizarDynasty]

Is a more athletic andrew Bynum a good comparison?

Thats a fair comp, I would say that McGee has a better shot, and the thing that really separates the two is McGee's motor. He sprints all over, almost like Chris Anderson, and brings a ton of energy to the game. Bynum is a slug, but he's much bigger. If McGee ever develops the strength of Bynum look out!

yeah Bynum had very powerful lower leg strength coming straight out of highschool. McGee has been in college for three years and has absolutely NO lower body strength. The guy is pulling up his pants almost everytime he is running down the court. McGee has close to zero leg lower body strength. His legs are literally bean poles that can barely support his own upper body weight, let alone a post player leaning on him. Having no leg power might not have been that bad if he projected out as a small forward like his family thought he would but banging in the post and you have to pull your basketball shorts up because they are to big for you, that's a longterm problem. Once he starts doing serious leg training, we don't know if he becomes a stiff or not because gaining muscle can cause you to lose your fluidness and we already know McGee is extremely no agile out in space when guarding. Things might get even worse if he starts building muscles. Who know, maybe he might become explosive like D. Howard if he adds muscles, guess time will tell.

[AgentOvechkin08]

^^^Well he was in college for only two years and the in the Nba for one and also you have to take in to account that he has not been playing basketball all that long and is still growing into his body. Also I would not goes as far as saying he has almost zero leg strength because he leaping ability is there, but being able to hold position ala dwight howard is not.

[doclinkin]

^^^Well he was in college for only two years and the in the Nba for one and also you have to take in to account that he has not been playing basketball all that long and is still growing into his body. Also I would not goes as far as saying he has almost zero leg strength because he leaping ability is there, but being able to hold position ala dwight howard is not.

Uh, as the son of a professional Basketball player he's been playing ball his entire life actually. Yes he's still growing, yes his body is changing, yes he hasn't put on his adult weight unlike the manchild Dwight, but no don't perpetuate the fraud that he's only recently seen a basketball. His mom raised him expecting he'd be an NBAer. Granted she may have concentrated on skills he's unlikely to use. His face up PG skills and behind the back passing on the dribble-drive are not gonna be broken out all that often.

His leg strength is fine, he just has a high center of gravity like most superbigs. He could take a wider stance with bent knees to make up the difference, though most shotblockers hate to do so since it robs them of the chance to bounce off their toe-tips.

He's only been playing in the post as a 5 for a short time though, and as he puts on Man weight he'll learn to like the mismatch he develops in strength. He's got a really solid frame for a superbig (7'+). No Shaq of course, he lacks the fundament (rump) to really take root in the lane and clear space, but he's got the bone density etc to build strength and power without losing agility. Naturally massive shoulders, pretty thick wrists for a longbone. Wilt Chamberlain was the last guy I saw with a similar frame at that height. That's a pretty rare thing.

[WizarDynasty]

He's only been playing in the post as a 5 for a short time though, and as he puts on Man weight he'll learn to like the mismatch he develops in strength. He's got a really solid frame for a superbig (7'+). No Shaq of course, he lacks the fundament (rump) to really take root in the lane and clear space, but he's got the bone density etc to build strength and power without losing agility. Naturally massive shoulders, pretty thick wrists for a longbone. Wilt Chamberlain was the last guy I saw with a similar frame at that height. That's a pretty rare thing.

His leg strength is poor and it shows in his agility movements. McGee legs are skinny because he has never trained his body to maintain a low center of gravity when playing defense. A low center of gravity forces your quadriceps and "rump" muscles to become powerful because when you are in a low center of gravity these are two sets of mucles that generate all of your power when you make a movement when your knees are bent. When you stand with a high center of gravity (knees not bent), you mainly use your calves with very little use of your quadriceps and rump (which is why mcgee has such skinny thighs and no rump). You even said it yourself, shot blockers want to stay in upright position so that they jump off their tippy toes. the problem with McGee is that for 21 years, he didn't develop the other muscles set and now all of sudden he wants to develop and compete against players who have been developing these muscles since they were in highschool. That mentality works if all you have to do is stand under the basket and wait for someone to come to you but in the nba, you have defend people out in space and you will get torched if you can't maintain a low center of gravity.
McGee's legs show that he has absolutely little to know quadricep mucles or "rump muscles" which is why he can't maintain a low center of gravity and move fluidly. McGee looks like a machine and he often can't recover and change his momentum quick enough to defend because his muscles are so weak. . The only mucles McGee has trained are his vertical shot blocking muscles. The "rump" is where your lower body power comes from. His body type is not going to change much from what we see him as now. McGee has trained his body to play out on the perimeter, which is why he doesn't have the normal power rump mustces that post players develop from pushing against other post players. Mcgee trained offensively has a small forward, but didn't work on any of explosive movements associated with being a small forward. He mainly worked on a small forward jumping shooting. On defense, McGee worked on shotblocking skills and basically standing under the rim waiting for someone to drive to basket. He didn't practice defending out on the perimeter for his entire life which is why he his body is so undeveloped and he looks completely uncoordinated when trying to guard out on the perimeter.
McGee has pretty much played as perimeter small forward most of his life and didn't train for 21 years to develop the power that post players need to be effective. Right now he has a serious game of catch up in terms of developing his body and the wizard organization are horrible at bringing in personnel to develop their players defensive agility movements. Example of starters with poor agility, Arenas, Butler, Jamison, Haywood--4 starters, so future isn't looking to glim with McGee improving his defensive agility and lower leg strength needed for above average defensive agility.

[doclinkin]

Early on Wilt Chamberlain sez: shut the hellup about my skinny legs, son. 10,000 scored, what.

[doclinkin]

Later in life: check the developments.



My asss is you hat!

[doclinkin]

Big Daddy Wookie sez:



Have a taste of the Lemonheads.



JaVale's frame is justfine, thanks.

[WizarDynasty]

^^^Actually he was 20, but i see what you are saying. But McGee had not been playing basketball for that long, and is still growing into his body. Like I said though maybe McGee can put some muscle on this summer and next summer

do you see under those shorts, nothing but bone.
Wilt Chamberlain claims that his sergeant, during his prime, was "46 to 48 inches, easy.
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Wilt_Chamberlain

No comparison. Javale's Max is 32.5 inches. Try another example.

[doclinkin]

BUt no you're right, nobody ever gains weight and strength no matter how much they work out. Especially not the hind-end. That never gains weight. You'd know of course, being an asspert on these things.



Too bad JaVale's ridiculous length and hops doom him forever to being a terrible basketball player. He should have become a jockey since he's clearly better suited to that profession.

[WizarDynasty]

BUt no you're right, nobody ever gains weight and strength no matter how much they work out. Especially not the hind-end. That never gains weight. You'd know of course, being an asspert on these things.



Too bad JaVale's ridiculous length and hops doom him forever to being a terrible basketball player. He should have become a jockey since he's clearly better suited to that profession.

Don't get emotional and go off on the deep end. lol. Javale is an upgrade over Etan and i said that in a previoius post on this thread. So you think Etan should become a jockey. That's sound like a stupid thing to say. lol. and you're the one scanning old nba photo of guys wearing nut huggers.

[doclinkin]

do you see under those shorts, nothing but bone.

Sometimes I think you're deliberately a parody of yourself. The Nevada photo goes to show that he's actually put on a little size since then. Hell JaVale's thighs are thicker than Rip's chest in the one photo. Kid just looks especially slim in part because of how silly-long he is. As far as the ability to cover ground laterally, hell all he needs to do is take a wider stance and he's already four times wider. The rest is about positioning and anticipation. That part is simply coaching and experience. Brendan Haywood was often awkward slow, too upright, and out-of-position in his early Wiz career. Now he can put his length and size to good use having developed smarts and better habits.

Seriously, give it a rest. Or better, since you're interested, go back to school and get a degree in sports medicine, applied biometrics, athletic training. Otherwise it's home phrenology.

[doclinkin]

Nuthugger wearer is Wilt Chamberlain. Mr 100 pt game. Tough to argue that JaVale doesn't have a similar build. Difference being on the one hand, most players in the league are bigger than waybackwhen. On the other hand, nowadays JVMcG has access to top strength-training staff. On the third hand, so does everyone else. On the fourth hand, none of them will ever be 7'1" with a 37 inch vert or whatever ridiculous number JaVale posted. Seriously, only Dwight Howard and the young Shaq showed as long a standing reach plus vert jump for max height on shotblocking. Pretty good company there. I expect JaVale's ceiling will be determined only by how hard he's willing to work and his capacity to learn.

[WizarDynasty]

do you see under those shorts, nothing but bone.

Sometimes I think you're deliberately a parody of yourself. The Nevada photo goes to show that he's actually put on a little size since then. Hell JaVale's thighs are thicker than Rip's chest in the one photo. Kid just looks especially slim in part because of how silly-long he is. As far as the ability to cover ground laterally, hell all he needs to do is take a wider stance and he's already four times wider. The rest is about positioning and anticipation. That part is simply coaching and experience. Brendan Haywood was often awkward slow, too upright, and out-of-position in his early Wiz career. Now he can put his length and size to good use having developed smarts and better habits.

Seriously, give it a rest. Or better, since you're interested, go back to school and get a degree in sports medicine, applied biometrics, athletic training. Otherwise it's home phrenology.

I guess i will guide you slowly. It's about changing laterally momentum and quickly, not covering ground, big difference. Physics. Javale will get better, all players do. Has Haywood improved offensively since his first years as a wizard? yeah. Is he better than Dwight offensively yet Haywood has had far more time to practice his game? There is a point i am trying to make. Dwight's Agility superb agility 11.21 Straight out of highschool is what made him special. His leg strenght was outstanding. Both Haywood and McGee will probably never come close to having the agility that Dwight Howard was blessed with coming out of Highschool.
Amare stoudemire (11.16.-no step 32 inches) Dwight (11.21-30.5 inches) Exceptional agility--which is leg strength coming out of highschool
Haywood-(12.87-27 inches) Butler=(12.15 -27) inches and McGEE (12.75 -27 inches) Arenas(?-31.5)

McGee's pore agility times suggest that his potential is alot closer to Haywood's in terms of athleticism due to his extremely poor agility. I would say the biggest barrier to McGee's potential is that he came into the league with poor agility. Rarely do you see a big come into the league with poor agility slower that 12.6 and become allstar bigmen.
What makes Dwight Howard a great bigman is that he is an agile shot blocker.
McGee and Haywood are not agile shotblockers and the odds are stacked against the McGEE already being 21 years and having worse agility than D. Howard had at age 18. I am sorry McGee is a stiff on defense. He is extremely non agile. Haywood has improved his agility but compared to the he is still pretty non agile compared to best bigmen in the league.
Is it possible that some miracle can sweep across McGEE and bless him with elite agility that most great bigmen have..Possibly...but i highly doubt it. McGee will not be able to effectively use the shot blocking skills he has without also possessing above average agility. Without great agility, a shotblocker normally gets called for body contact when going for block and I think you have seen this with your own eyes. Exceptional agility allows a shot blocker to avoid contact and still get the block shot, on defense it allows a big defender to play the pick and role, it allows a big to get position for chargers instead of getting called for the blocking foul. On offense, agility allows you to beat slow footed defenders off the dribble.
Agility is one the most important dimensions for a bigman to possess along with big hands, wingspan, bball IQ, standing reach, coordination.

[TheSecretWeapon]

WizDynasty cracks me up.

In my blog, I wrote that McGee's ceiling -- at least when looking at centers with statistically similar rookie seasons -- is Dwight Howard. My buddy Kevin Pelton ran his statistical doppleganger formulation on it and came up with some different names, which are up on my blog.

[WizarDynasty]

I always built him to shoot him because if you don't know the actual event or muscles groups that makes someone exceptional defensively then its hard to link that trait to an actual number. If you have never been an exceptional athlete and played exceptional perimeter defense in space, then it usually shows when you try to explain why a person is gifted in their agility. A poster who has exceptional agility knows the muscles groups and can see those same muscles groups in another player. A poster who has never been exceptional with his or her agility usually can't describe what muscle groups are responsible for superior agility. Usually personal testimony reveals a poster true insights into what makes a player great defensively. Raw numbers won't give you that insight, but will point you in the direction.
But the motivation to what to know is why poster on this board are special. The desire to want to know these insights is what makes fans more appreciative of what is really going on the basketball court. Obviously is a benefit to me because someone on this board might have EG's ear, get the players we need, and allow me to enjoy rooting for my favorite team. Knowing we are one player in the draft from being longterm contenders. Our super special player that fits this teams needs longterm is finally there, the player jordan was searching for and who EG was searching for is finally there. It took 10 years for us to get in position but we finally lucked up and have all the pieces needed to go all the way against any squad in the nba. As long as we don't trade away our hard earned young assets, stay pat, we are set on both sides of the ball. And you guys have never heard me talk this confidently about the wizards as an entire team since I have had the mindset of the wiz being a dynasty for the last 6 years. The last piece is in this draft and we are super super lucky, the losing season happened for a reason, we got our glue guy and we can make Obama and regular attendee at the games.
Of course that players is BJ Mullens or Tyler Hansborough exceptional agility guarding out on the perimeter with their lane agility scores and standing reach.

[Ruzious]

Nuthugger wearer is Wilt Chamberlain. Mr 100 pt game. Tough to argue that JaVale doesn't have a similar build.

I think we're shooting a wee bit too high there - which is fine, because Wilt had the best basketball body ever, imo. But even when he was a tiny wasted track star at Kansas, he had the broad shoulders and classic V shape. Jav had the classic toothpick shape. But he's more of a late-bloomer, and I concur that he'll continue to fill out.

[AgentOvechkin08]

^^^Actually he was 20, but i see what you are saying. But McGee had not been playing basketball for that long, and is still growing into his body. Like I said though maybe McGee can put some muscle on this summer and next summer

do you see under those shorts, nothing but bone.
Wilt Chamberlain claims that his sergeant, during his prime, was "46 to 48 inches, easy.
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Wilt_Chamberlain

No comparison. Javale's Max is 32.5 inches. Try another example.

Ummm i was never comparing him to Wilt Chamberlain, where in the hell did you get that reading my post. I was responding to someone else when i posted that. Also I would like to correct myself. Javale has been around and playing basketball his entire life, but he had not been playing that long as a big man and growing into his body still, that is what i meant to say.

[forbes20]

I looked at the past several years of draft measurements, and McGee has the body and tools to be an impact player:

McGee tied Dwight Howard for the combined inches for Standing Reach and Max Vert

- McGee had a 9'6.5 Standing reach (ranked #1) and a 32.5 max vert = 147"
- Howard: 9' 3.5 and 35.5 = 147
(147"...that's over 12 feet ...WOW... let's get the Lemonhead in the dunk contest!)


For comparison:
- Oden: 9'4 + 34 = 146 (3rd place)
- Okafor: 9'2.5 + 34 = 144.5
- Amare: 9'0.5 + 35.5 = 144
- Noah: 8'10.5 + 37.5 = 144
- Aldridge: 9'2 + 34 = 144
- Tyson: 9'2 + 33.5 = 143.5
- B. Lopez: 9'5 + 30.5 = 143.5
- Bosh: 9'1 + 33 = 142
- Haywood: 9'5.5 (#2) + 28.5 = 142

Include Wingspan:
#1: Kandi: 7'8
#2: Haywood: 7'6.5
#3: McGee: 7'6
... Dwight 7'4.5

Note: No measurements for Garnett, Camby, Kandi (no SR)

[WizarDynasty]

I think you guys aren't getting. The only thing keeping Javale from being a superstar is that he doesn't have the leg strenght to maintain a low squating, low center gravity defensive stance. He has extremely poor agility. His ability to change his momentum once he is moving in one direction laterally is horrible. Its all because he absolutely no power in quadriceps.His qaudricep muscle is basically bone. When you get in a low stance, the main muscle group that you rely on to accelerate your body mass in your quadriceps. Javale has bone when there should be massive muscles. I also don't think he knees can support all the force if he tries to squat and accelerate sideways. That ultimately is what will keep him from being able to guard on the perimeter and adjust his body so that he avoids contact when a player is driving straight at him and forcing contact. I like how he is actually working on his post moves and finishing off one leg in summer league.
That is going to be very very effective if he able to maintain his balance after getting bumped while driving into the lane. If McGee can learn to maintain a low center of gravity while fighting for rebounds, he won't have to worry about being nudged out of position just before the ball reaches him.
But it all starts with him getting his knees and quadriceps stronger so he can drop his center of gravity significantly closer to the ground. His center gravity is literally a foot to high. Obviously he is going to need someone to help him because i don't think he has the discipline to build the strength needed in his quadriceps and knees in order to maintain a low center of gravity. He might even develop knee problems but if he doesn't develop knee problems, is see him dominating D. Howard. It would be a very long long summer of getting low center of gravity and at the same time maintaining your position while someone is pushing you.
I think if he spent one fourth of his day doing the lane agility drills at the combine non-stop we would see a close to allstar McGee next year. I highly doubt he has the drive to that all summer.