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Kobe wasn't old enough or wise enough to be a leader when Horace played with him.

Virtually every single one of those Jordan quotes from "The Jordan Rules" is taken out of context in order to sensationalize it. Someone on this board once went through about half of them and provided the surrounding context from the book, and it definitely blunted the force of a lot of those remarks. He certainly wasn't a saint, but a lot of that is sensationalized.

Jordan23Forever wrote:Virtually every single one of those Jordan quotes from "The Jordan Rules" is taken out of context in order to sensationalize it. Someone on this board once went through about half of them and provided the surrounding context from the book, and it definitely blunted the force of a lot of those remarks. He certainly wasn't a saint, but a lot of that is sensationalized.

Thanks for the information, Jordan23Forever. If you can please send me in pm the details regarding the Jordan Rules, and it's sensationalism, I would really appreciate that. Thank you.

NeilsCeltics wrote:

Jordan23Forever wrote:Virtually every single one of those Jordan quotes from "The Jordan Rules" is taken out of context in order to sensationalize it. Someone on this board once went through about half of them and provided the surrounding context from the book, and it definitely blunted the force of a lot of those remarks. He certainly wasn't a saint, but a lot of that is sensationalized.

Thanks for the information, Jordan23Forever. If you can please send me in pm the details regarding the Jordan Rules, and it's sensationalism, I would really appreciate that. Thank you.

I don't have them, unfortunately. Someone on here posted a detailed response to about 50-60% ofthose quotes, providing the surrounding context. I didn't save the post, and this board doesn't have a search feature, so...

I'm pretty sure if you actually read the book it'll be clear, since all the context he provided was from the book itself.

Jordan23Forever wrote:

NeilsCeltics wrote:

Jordan23Forever wrote:Virtually every single one of those Jordan quotes from "The Jordan Rules" is taken out of context in order to sensationalize it. Someone on this board once went through about half of them and provided the surrounding context from the book, and it definitely blunted the force of a lot of those remarks. He certainly wasn't a saint, but a lot of that is sensationalized.

Thanks for the information, Jordan23Forever. If you can please send me in pm the details regarding the Jordan Rules, and it's sensationalism, I would really appreciate that. Thank you.

I don't have them, unfortunately. Someone on here posted a detailed response to about 50-60% ofthose quotes, providing the surrounding context. I didn't save the post, and this board doesn't have a search feature, so...

I'm pretty sure if you actually read the book it'll be clear, since all the context he provided was from the book itself.

Hmm, okay then.

sunshinekids99 wrote:MJ averaged 30 points 5.5 rebounds and 6.5 assists in the 88 series. I'm not so sure that is neutralizing anybody.

Well one season in thrown out due to MJ being hurt. And the other two the teams were pretty terrible. His third year the best player other than MJ was Charles Oakley. So I'm not so sure it was all Scottie Pippen.

What a terrible "example" So because he won his titles with Pippen he get penalized for it?

I've heard a lot of theories on this one. One is that it was a suspension that the NBA just didn't want to come out with do to gambling. Plus with his father being murdered who knows what was going through his head.

Kobe Bryant has more weaknesses than MJ. MJ was a better all around player and that is not to take anything away from Kobe Bryant. But I'm getting a little sick of this cause Kobe has a lot of players to pass before he even gets mentioned with MJ.

The mention of titles is a bit annoying as well. With MJ with 6 and Kobe with 4. MJ never played Robin with the Bulls, Kobe has 3 titles that way. I think that means a lot of your the "main" guy.

Jordan does not get penalized for winning titles with Pippen. What I am trying to say is, Jordan is harder to build around than Kobe is, since finding a hyper-athletic Point Forward like Scottie Pippen or Lebron James is like finding a needle in the haystack. It's hard. What then if you don't have a Point Forward for Michael Jordan? He'll just turn into a ball-dominant, Oscar Robertson-esque like player that fills up the stat sheet, night in and night out, which doesn't translate to winning the Championship.

About Michael Jordan leaving the sport. It's bad for Michael Jordan either way. What kind of franchise player would squabble an Octopeat because of the fact that he gambled? If you were the Chicago GM, how would you feel about Jordan screwing things up because he gambled? Bill Russell or Magic Johnson would have never gambled like that, and lose an Octopeat during his Championship years. And if he didn't got banned for gambling, then Michael Jordan left the sport. Although, I do feel sad for him that Michael Jordan's father died, and he wanted to play baseball, so yeah.

I agree with you completely, however. Michael Jordan is flat out better than Kobe Bryant. He won all of his championships as the main man. He got two three-peats, without a dominant/great Big man.
He revolutionized the game, and introduced 6'6 Guards who would be playing Small Forward/Power Forward in the previous eras, before the 1990s or the 2000s. He's an outlier, and I really like his game alot. He's fun to watch. Because of him, we have the Golden Age of Wingmen, and Power Forwards.

You're making the mistake of thinking that the way things DID happen is the way they HAD TO HAVE happened. That's fallacious reasoning. Just because Jordan won titles with Pippen, and Pippen performed a certain role, doesn't mean that he wouldn't have had success with some other player filling a different role.

Jordan23Forever wrote:You're making the mistake of thinking that the way things DID happen is the way they HAD TO HAVE happened. That's fallacious reasoning. Just because Jordan won titles with Pippen, and Pippen performed a certain role, doesn't mean that he wouldn't have had success with some other player filling a different role.

Well, can you name any other players that are willing to be a second fiddle? That is willing to sacrifice his shots so that Michael Jordan can get his 30 shots a game? A person that is willing to take the abuse from Jordan like Pippen did? A person that wouldn't mind always being the Robin to Michael Jordan's Batman? That can fullfill the needs that Jordan has to win, take over when Michael Jordan is not hot, and wouldn't mind not being the Focal point of offense? As far as I am concerned, Michael Jordan won 6 Championships with a dominant Point Forward, I didn't see him win championships with a dominant big man.

Although, I do wonder... how would the pairing of Bill Russell and Michael Jordan be if Bill Russell replaced Pippen?

The whole gambling thing about Jordan is way overblown. Virtually every NBA player gambles, whether at a casino or in practice by HORSE or one-on-one, playing cards in the hotel room or on the plane, or playing Madden or Tiger Woods on XBOX Live. It's crazy to think that these super-competitive people just turn everything off as soon as they leave the court. The reason why Jordan got raked over the head with it was because he was a much more high profile media figure than any other player.

NeilsCeltics wrote:

Jordan23Forever wrote:You're making the mistake of thinking that the way things DID happen is the way they HAD TO HAVE happened. That's fallacious reasoning. Just because Jordan won titles with Pippen, and Pippen performed a certain role, doesn't mean that he wouldn't have had success with some other player filling a different role.

Well, can you name any other players that are willing to be a second fiddle? That is willing to sacrifice his shots so that Michael Jordan can get his 30 shots a game? A person that is willing to take the abuse from Jordan like Pippen did? A person that wouldn't mind always being the Robin to Michael Jordan's Batman? That can fullfill the needs that Jordan has to win, take over when Michael Jordan is not hot, and wouldn't mind not being the Focal point of offense? As far as I am concerned, Michael Jordan won 6 Championships with a dominant Point Forward, I didn't see him win championships with a dominant big man.

Although, I do wonder... how would the pairing of Bill Russell and Michael Jordan be if Bill Russell replaced Pippen?

Again, you're looking at what DID happen and assuming that no other scenario was possible. That's rubbish.

NeilsCeltics wrote:Well, can you name any other players that are willing to be a second fiddle? That is willing to sacrifice his shots so that Michael Jordan can get his 30 shots a game? A person that is willing to take the abuse from Jordan like Pippen did? A person that wouldn't mind always being the Robin to Michael Jordan's Batman? That can fullfill the needs that Jordan has to win, take over when Michael Jordan is not hot, and wouldn't mind not being the Focal point of offense? As far as I am concerned, Michael Jordan won 6 Championships with a dominant Point Forward, I didn't see him win championships with a dominant big man.

Although, I do wonder... how would the pairing of Bill Russell and Michael Jordan be if Bill Russell replaced Pippen?

Pippen wasn't really a dominant player. Aside from defense and athleticism, there wasn't really one aspect of the game that he truly excelled at. He was a unselfish player who did everything well and was a tremendous athlete.

99% of players would willingly be second banana to a guy like Michael Jordan. Super-sensitive personalities or guys with giant egos wouldn't mesh well with MJ (who was also somewhat sensitive- he took everything personally and used all slights real or imagined to destroy opponents- and had a massive ego), but most players would love playing with a guy like Michael Jordan who may have gotten the glory, but also wasn't afraid to fail and take the heat for losses or mistakes.

Russell and Jordan would probably the best possible pairing of two NBA greats ever. Russell wasn't interested in stats and Jordan always respected tough minded players who played hard and didn't falter when it mattered the most.

I've read the book, Michael Jordan was an arrogant, spoiled jerk. As he aged he mellowed a bit, winning does that, and you have to give kudos also to Phil Jackson for getting the team to play like one given Jordan's crap . . . but almost any decent player will take a ton of crap in order to win and Jordan did that more than anyone since Russell.

Wile E. Coyote wrote:Kobe wasn't old enough or wise enough to be a leader when Horace played with him.

Sooo about the same age as Jordan when the book was written....

NeilsCeltics wrote:Well, can you name any other players that are willing to be a second fiddle? That is willing to sacrifice his shots so that Michael Jordan can get his 30 shots a game?

The most Jordan ever took was 28 FGA/g leaving about 60 FGA's for his team. The most Kobe took is about 27 but he only left about 53 for his team.

A person that is willing to take the abuse from Jordan like Pippen did?

The abuse, working out together at MJ's home, having breakfast, improving each other's game...sounds brutal.

Frosty wrote:Really? I mean, who would take any time to even look at a site like that? The Jordan rules book has been around forever. Nothing new there. I'm sure if you had anyone willing to publish a "Kobe rules" book it would have lots of crap in it too.

I thought there was a "Kobe rules" book, written by Phil Jackson.

It talked about Kobe bitching that the Lakers didn't give him a nicer private jet to fly to Colorado in, screaming at teammates in practice over quotes in LA Times articles, declaring that he wouldn't re-sign with the Lakers if Shaq was still there, and being generally uncoachable.

BubbaTee wrote:

Frosty wrote:Really? I mean, who would take any time to even look at a site like that? The Jordan rules book has been around forever. Nothing new there. I'm sure if you had anyone willing to publish a "Kobe rules" book it would have lots of crap in it too.

I thought there was a "Kobe rules" book, written by Phil Jackson.

It talked about Kobe bitching that the Lakers didn't give him a nicer private jet to fly to Colorado in, screaming at teammates in practice over quotes in LA Times articles, declaring that he wouldn't re-sign with the Lakers if Shaq was still there, and being generally uncoachable.

It was but is was about the entire team, the pieces about Kobe stood out because he was the source of friction for so many things. We haven't seen anyone come straight out with a book like Smith did. One directly targeting Kobe.

Jordan23Forever wrote:

Showtime:Part2 wrote:you said, "- Need a great to dominant Big man to win Championships, Michael Jordan does not need a great/dominant big man to win Championships"

ok fine, trade me gasol and ariza for a prime rodman and pippen any day of the week and twice on sunday.

Gasol/Bynum/Odom/Ariza for Pippen/Grant/Cartwright/Williams. Deal? I'd make that trade any day of the week.

I''d do that trade as a Laker fan too. Kobe has a very good supporting cast, but none of them are even remotely close to Pippen. Grant was a very good player too, better than Bynum/Odom/Ariza.

Asianiac_24 wrote:I''d do that trade as a Laker fan too. Kobe has a very good supporting cast, but none of them are even remotely close to Pippen. Grant was a very good player too, better than Bynum/Odom/Ariza.

Uhh, Gasol is definitely "remotely close" to Pippen in terms of impact. Grant did not have more impact than a healthy Bynum, and is about equal with Odom.

Frosty wrote:The most Jordan ever took was 28 FGA/g leaving about 60 FGA's for his team. The most Kobe took is about 27 but he only left about 53 for his team.

I don't think FGA's is as important as the type of FG's they were (jumpers that could incite an opponent's break? or driving to the hole causing the defense to collapse?) and the FGA number as a percentage of the team's total FGA's.

If Kobe took 1 or 2 less bad off-balance, circus shots a game, he'd be essentially shooting 50% and be at Jordan's efficiency level.

The story of Kobe's career. "I'm better than Michael because I can score all over the floor." Just because you can make that shot 3/10 times and Jordan would only have made that 2/10 times, does not mean taking those shots is a good idea.

Kobe had the lowest FG% on the US Olympic Gold Medal Team while being 3rd in scoring. It doesn't matter what competition level Kobe is facing, he shoots a fairly middling percentage. That tell's me he's taking the kind of shots where it doesn't matter if a high school player or Ron Artest is guarding him, it's just a make or miss shot.