The Sad Reality Of The WNBA and Its Wage Gap

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Re: The Sad Reality Of The WNBA and Its Wage Gap 

Post#201 » by bondom34 » Thu Sep 6, 2018 1:42 am

theonlyclutch wrote:
bondom34 wrote:
righterwriter wrote:
I think arbitrarily picking a number doesn't make sense. It all comes down to costs vs. profit and keeping the business running in a healthy way, both for the franchise and the league. If there is enough profit in there that there can be a raise, then great. But it has nothing to do with what the NBA gets or gender discrimination or whatever points are being made publicly.

I wasn't saying to arbitrarily pick a number. I'm saying it should be higher than it is, what that amount is is up to the parties involved. But when a WNBA player can just quit and play overseas to make more, that's a league issue. They can afford more than what they make now IMO. Maybe you fundamentally disagree there. Not sure.


I definitely disagree, while salaries are a big differentiator between the WNBA and NBA, in many other aspects their cost base is the same. Arenas don't suddenly get cheaper to rent because women play in them vs men...etc. Arena costs, among others, are a pretty insignificant part of NBA revenues, but take up a much bigger part of the pie of WNBA revenues.

If every single part of the cost base get to scale down linearly between the NBA/WNBA revenues, then the women would deserve 50% BRI, but in real life things don't happen that way.

In all honesty if I were in their spot, I'd tell the league to shove it and play overseas. Just make more there. The league is gaining money and popularity and they aren't gaining
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Re: The Sad Reality Of The WNBA and Its Wage Gap 

Post#202 » by Lalouie » Thu Sep 6, 2018 2:21 am

Clyde Frazier wrote:
Lalouie wrote:
Clyde Frazier wrote:Sue bird ice water in her veins!



we don't care :D


Oh no.


look. i gotta say. there are plenty of womens sports i enjoy. softball(a fave of mine), t&f, gymnastics, volleyball, swimming, diving, tennis.

i think womens basketball SHOULD be supported by the nba for all the right reasons, but i ain't watching it and never will unless the wnba champ squares off against oak hill or and number of #1 city boys teams. THAT GAME, i would watch with interest. i think the wnba would get pounded, and i mean POUNDED, but whichever way the outcome goes it would've been intriguing.

there's a separation that is unspoken. we all know it. billie jean king had to face a 55yr old bobby rigs and venus faced a #200(i believe) mens player and got smacked. the separation is unspoken so as to allow fans to enjoy both sides as separate but equal sports. but when the women start talking about equal pay or when (as in the case of a tennis friend of mine) that serena would hold her own in the mens game, well, enough is enough.

enjoy the game on it's own merits
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Re: The Sad Reality Of The WNBA and Its Wage Gap 

Post#203 » by G R E Y » Thu Sep 6, 2018 3:00 am

Michael Jordan wrote:Here's a sad reality, WNBA would be more profitable if they wore skimpier outfits IMO

People choose NBA > WNBA cause it's the best players in the world. For WNBA to gain more viewership I think they'd need something other than talent

That may be the reality for some, but I haven't stopped watching the NBA because the short shorts of the 1980s have been replaced with less attractive, more loose longer ones. Maintaining a high standard is where it should be, on the central purpose which is quality of the game.

The many opinions about the state and fate and entertainment level of the WNBA do not intersect enough. The WNBA, as the video bondom34 provided reiterates, is a relatively young league compared to the NBA and even more so to other professional leagues. Where was the NBA in its first twenty or so years? Was there not heavy criticism of players and drugs and I think even tattoos at some point? What about when the NBA was introduced in Canada? Remember the quality of the product initially? Resistance of players to play in another country? Problems with the metric system, as if Canada is the odd one when most countries in the world use it (including those of foreign players)? The cold, as if the Bucks or Pistons or Knicks, etc., haven't had the same. Calls for disbanding the WNBA at a time when the talent is the best its ever been, when social media can help spread the game (and it has, more on this a bit later), when it's more organized than it has ever been misses its point and place in history.

The WNBA players obviously realize they can't be making what the NBA players do and why. They do want a bigger share of the revenue, which currently stands at around 25%. So that's one aspect of it. As for disbanding because of lack of popularity, you'd have to look at what younger generations are saying about the WNBA players. I was following Basketball Without Borders in Serbia this summer which had the best European boys and girls participating, and the girls were thrilled about seeing the coaches (men and women), talked about their favourite pro players, and about how they looked up to them and were happy that they could pursue careers at a pro level in the game they love. You have to wait until development trickles down to more subsequent generations. It's already having an impact so the game is growing even if it takes time for seeds planted nationally and internationally to grow.

In addition, when players finish their pro careers, they go on to have opportunities in new levels. Becky Hammon, for instance, was able to pursue a coaching career which was undoubtedly informed by her playing career.

Also, the attention that players get means their causes get attention, too. Breanna Stewart wrote a deeply personal and moving article in the Players' Tribune about being sexually abused and how basketball was an escape and focus for her which she translated into a career. You have to appreciate the impact and reach that that may have, and it's because of what she does.

A lot the NBA players support the WNBA, too. I don't think it's just pandering, but an appreciation for the grind behind the game; they know what it takes to get to this level.

So if someone doesn't like it, please think twice before suggesting for the women to look cuter or for the uniforms to be sexier or whatever. You don't have to watch if you aren't into it, but respect that they take it seriously and want to contribute and have a voice in growing the game. It's not yet where it could be, but there needs to be a space for it to keep expanding as it already has an important presence both on and off the court.
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Re: The Sad Reality Of The WNBA and Its Wage Gap 

Post#204 » by G R E Y » Thu Sep 6, 2018 4:02 am

illuminati666 wrote:

No such thing as the wage gap. You make what you deserve

It's a conservative think tank, so grain of salt. It's a far more complex issue than any five minute video can present: I've seen immigrants who have degrees earn less; equally qualified men who were hired after women for the exact same position, not sales related, yet earn more as a starting wage with the company than women who worked their way up to theirs; I've seen sales percentages for women be lowered and sales quotas increased so as to 'incentivize earning more' when women met the quotas faster and more consistently than men.

Also, the wage gap issue is not only a discussion in the US.

The video indicates that solely economics drive wages, and if women earn less then companies should just hire more women. But of course paying less is a way to keep some where they are and others out. The video ignores the very human factor of bias (even as it exposes its own in implying that women don't earn as much because they aren't as willing to stay longer or want that work/life balance so they sacrifice less).

To amend your sentence: if people made what they deserved, there would be no such thing as a wage gap.

This is less directly tied to the topic at hand, so I don't want to sidetrack, but there are valid reasons why the WNBA players aren't making as much as NBA players are, and there are valid reasons why they are laying the groundwork for better compensation.
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Re: The Sad Reality Of The WNBA and Its Wage Gap 

Post#205 » by PharmD » Thu Sep 6, 2018 6:48 am

bondom34 wrote:
theonlyclutch wrote:
bondom34 wrote:I wasn't saying to arbitrarily pick a number. I'm saying it should be higher than it is, what that amount is is up to the parties involved. But when a WNBA player can just quit and play overseas to make more, that's a league issue. They can afford more than what they make now IMO. Maybe you fundamentally disagree there. Not sure.


I definitely disagree, while salaries are a big differentiator between the WNBA and NBA, in many other aspects their cost base is the same. Arenas don't suddenly get cheaper to rent because women play in them vs men...etc. Arena costs, among others, are a pretty insignificant part of NBA revenues, but take up a much bigger part of the pie of WNBA revenues.

If every single part of the cost base get to scale down linearly between the NBA/WNBA revenues, then the women would deserve 50% BRI, but in real life things don't happen that way.

In all honesty if I were in their spot, I'd tell the league to shove it and play overseas. Just make more there. The league is gaining money and popularity and they aren't gaining

Not sure why you think they're gaining in popularity when attendance was down pretty sharply this year:

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Re: The Sad Reality Of The WNBA and Its Wage Gap 

Post#206 » by bondom34 » Thu Sep 6, 2018 6:50 am

PharmD wrote:
bondom34 wrote:
theonlyclutch wrote:
I definitely disagree, while salaries are a big differentiator between the WNBA and NBA, in many other aspects their cost base is the same. Arenas don't suddenly get cheaper to rent because women play in them vs men...etc. Arena costs, among others, are a pretty insignificant part of NBA revenues, but take up a much bigger part of the pie of WNBA revenues.

If every single part of the cost base get to scale down linearly between the NBA/WNBA revenues, then the women would deserve 50% BRI, but in real life things don't happen that way.

In all honesty if I were in their spot, I'd tell the league to shove it and play overseas. Just make more there. The league is gaining money and popularity and they aren't gaining

Not sure why you think they're gaining in popularity when attendance was down pretty sharply this year:

Image

I was under that impression by a lot of increased TV coverage, but may stand corrected.
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Re: The Sad Reality Of The WNBA and Its Wage Gap 

Post#207 » by PharmD » Thu Sep 6, 2018 6:55 am

Yeah, my understanding is TV ratings are up as ESPN is promoting the games much more heavily but that TV contract is already signed and isn't bringing in any more revenue.

And i agree with you that i would play in a Euro league that pays much more. The WNBA isn't the premier women's league and nobody would think that it is if it didn't have its association with the NBA. It's an offseason league for players that need multiple gigs to make enough $$.
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Re: The Sad Reality Of The WNBA and Its Wage Gap 

Post#208 » by righterwriter » Thu Sep 6, 2018 6:57 am

GREY 1769 wrote:
illuminati666 wrote:

No such thing as the wage gap. You make what you deserve

It's a conservative think tank, so grain of salt. It's a far more complex issue than any five minute video can present: I've seen immigrants who have degrees earn less; equally qualified men who were hired after women for the exact same position, not sales related, yet earn more as a starting wage with the company than women who worked their way up to theirs; I've seen sales percentages for women be lowered and sales quotas increased so as to 'incentivize earning more' when women met the quotas faster and more consistently than men.

Also, the wage gap issue is not only a discussion in the US.

The video indicates that solely economics drive wages, and if women earn less then companies should just hire more women. But of course paying less is a way to keep some where they are and others out. The video ignores the very human factor of bias (even as it exposes its own in implying that women don't earn as much because they aren't as willing to stay longer or want that work/life balance so they sacrifice less).

To amend your sentence: if people made what they deserved, there would be no such thing as a wage gap.

This is less directly tied to the topic at hand, so I don't want to sidetrack, but there are valid reasons why the WNBA players aren't making as much as NBA players are, and there are valid reasons why they are laying the groundwork for better compensation.


Here's an article from Vox, which is anything but a conservative think tank.

https://www.vox.com/2017/9/8/16268362/gender-wage-gap-explained



Here's a long, extremely thorough discussion between a liberal reporter and Jordan Peterson about the reasons why there is a gender wage gap.

https://youtu.be/aMcjxSThD54?t=277
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Re: The Sad Reality Of The WNBA and Its Wage Gap 

Post#209 » by MemphisX » Thu Sep 6, 2018 6:59 am

bondom34 wrote:
PharmD wrote:
bondom34 wrote:In all honesty if I were in their spot, I'd tell the league to shove it and play overseas. Just make more there. The league is gaining money and popularity and they aren't gaining

Not sure why you think they're gaining in popularity when attendance was down pretty sharply this year:

Image

I was under that impression by a lot of increased TV coverage, but may stand corrected.


Everyone wants to publicly say they love the WNBA. NBA Twitter has been trying all season to shame NBA fans into loving the WNBA. However, social media is the only place where the WNBA is being discussed. Nobody is contacting their friends about upcoming WNBA games. Or talking about any particular players performance.
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Re: The Sad Reality Of The WNBA and Its Wage Gap 

Post#210 » by Vlade Divac » Thu Sep 6, 2018 7:17 am

GREY 1769 wrote:
Michael Jordan wrote:Here's a sad reality, WNBA would be more profitable if they wore skimpier outfits IMO

People choose NBA > WNBA cause it's the best players in the world. For WNBA to gain more viewership I think they'd need something other than talent

That may be the reality for some, but I haven't stopped watching the NBA because the short shorts of the 1980s have been replaced with less attractive, more loose longer ones. Maintaining a high standard is where it should be, on the central purpose which is quality of the game.

The many opinions about the state and fate and entertainment level of the WNBA do not intersect enough. The WNBA, as the video bondom34 provided reiterates, is a relatively young league compared to the NBA and even more so to other professional leagues. Where was the NBA in its first twenty or so years? Was there not heavy criticism of players and drugs and I think even tattoos at some point? What about when the NBA was introduced in Canada? Remember the quality of the product initially? Resistance of players to play in another country? Problems with the metric system, as if Canada is the odd one when most countries in the world use it (including those of foreign players)? The cold, as if the Bucks or Pistons or Knicks, etc., haven't had the same. Calls for disbanding the WNBA at a time when the talent is the best its ever been, when social media can help spread the game (and it has, more on this a bit later), when it's more organized than it has ever been misses its point and place in history.

The WNBA players obviously realize they can't be making what the NBA players do and why. They do want a bigger share of the revenue, which currently stands at around 25%. So that's one aspect of it. As for disbanding because of lack of popularity, you'd have to look at what younger generations are saying about the WNBA players. I was following Basketball Without Borders in Serbia this summer which had the best European boys and girls participating, and the girls were thrilled about seeing the coaches (men and women), talked about their favourite pro players, and about how they looked up to them and were happy that they could pursue careers at a pro level in the game they love. You have to wait until development trickles down to more subsequent generations. It's already having an impact so the game is growing even if it takes time for seeds planted nationally and internationally to grow.

In addition, when players finish their pro careers, they go on to have opportunities in new levels. Becky Hammon, for instance, was able to pursue a coaching career which was undoubtedly informed by her playing career.

Also, the attention that players get means their causes get attention, too. Breanna Stewart wrote a deeply personal and moving article in the Players' Tribune about being sexually abused and how basketball was an escape and focus for her which she translated into a career. You have to appreciate the impact and reach that that may have, and it's because of what she does.

A lot the NBA players support the WNBA, too. I don't think it's just pandering, but an appreciation for the grind behind the game; they know what it takes to get to this level.

So if someone doesn't like it, please think twice before suggesting for the women to look cuter or for the uniforms to be sexier or whatever. You don't have to watch if you aren't into it, but respect that they take it seriously and want to contribute and have a voice in growing the game. It's not yet where it could be, but there needs to be a space for it to keep expanding as it already has an important presence both on and off the court.



Very good post, hank you. But...

WNBA is politically correct publicity stunt of NBA to promote values we all strive to achieve in real life, but NBA and all professional sports are so out of real life that’s not even funny.

Gender equity and equality are great accomplishments of civilizational progress and goal of any progressive political and societal thought and ideology. But correlating factor in all this is market and profit margins. We all know that as society we still have to support and fight for better inclusion of women in highest paying jobs, mainly in big business and politics, but not just because they are women, but because they are as good as men and can bring the same result as men do.

Now when we "translate" that to professional sports and use same criteria something is off. Unless WNBA brings the same revenue, profits and ratings as NBA does WNBA players should be happy and collect whatever they are given by NBA, because no matter how good they are (with obvious gender limitations), unfortunately their product is not recognized by the paying customers.

How many great female athletes compete in other totally unrecognized team sports in North America (volleyball, handball,water polo, even soccer) and for their performance get paid significantly less then WNBA athletes just because they are not lucky to have big profitable male competition to support them financially. What about them? Level of interest (with which comes money) in their sports is at the same level as for WNBA (nonexistent on bigger scale) and should they start complaining and ask to be payed like WNBA players, because the difference is almost as big between them as between WNBA and NBA.
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Re: The Sad Reality Of The WNBA and Its Wage Gap 

Post#211 » by bargnanimvp » Thu Sep 6, 2018 7:38 am

PharmD wrote:
bondom34 wrote:
theonlyclutch wrote:
I definitely disagree, while salaries are a big differentiator between the WNBA and NBA, in many other aspects their cost base is the same. Arenas don't suddenly get cheaper to rent because women play in them vs men...etc. Arena costs, among others, are a pretty insignificant part of NBA revenues, but take up a much bigger part of the pie of WNBA revenues.

If every single part of the cost base get to scale down linearly between the NBA/WNBA revenues, then the women would deserve 50% BRI, but in real life things don't happen that way.

In all honesty if I were in their spot, I'd tell the league to shove it and play overseas. Just make more there. The league is gaining money and popularity and they aren't gaining

Not sure why you think they're gaining in popularity when attendance was down pretty sharply this year:

Image


The spooky thing is some people involved with WNBA have mentioned they actually give out a large portion of free tickets as well to try and boot attendance.
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Re: The Sad Reality Of The WNBA and Its Wage Gap 

Post#212 » by Par36 » Thu Sep 6, 2018 8:48 am

Ideally they should get a pay raise but...they are making a decent wage.(average median of 71k USA)

The demand simply is not there to make the same as the NBA.
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Re: The Sad Reality Of The WNBA and Its Wage Gap 

Post#213 » by TJ_Ford_11 » Thu Sep 6, 2018 8:57 am

Paying WNBA players equal to NBA players would be like paying $500 for a pair of Kirkland shoes at Costco.
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Re: The Sad Reality Of The WNBA and Its Wage Gap 

Post#214 » by thamadkant » Thu Sep 6, 2018 10:42 am

LakersDynasty14 wrote:
GreatWhiteStiff wrote:Do people really need a complex arguemnent why insert WNBA star here isn't earning several million dollars per season?


Equal pay for equal work. They both play basketball, one gets paid a boatload of money more for the same work. This is textbook sexism on multiple levels.


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All non-pro basketball players playing similar amount of minutes and burn as much energy should be on similar pay as well right?
All those D-leaguers who even out-hustle some NBA rotation players deserve 200K a game then!


your Stupid argument sounds like it was made by someone who doesn't understand economics or how business works.


Equal pay for equal work argument works in the non-entertainment / non-sports industry, where there are no fans or faces that sells the "game" or product to fans. But then again, some out there want equal pay but un-equal work hours and responsibility.

Society is NOT gonna get far if people want more or equal award as someone who puts in more and impacts more, because why try.
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Re: The Sad Reality Of The WNBA and Its Wage Gap 

Post#215 » by theonlyclutch » Thu Sep 6, 2018 12:53 pm

Par36 wrote:Ideally they should get a pay raise but...they are making a decent wage.(average median of 71k USA)

The demand simply is not there to make the same as the NBA.


71k USD for ~3 months of work is not just "decent", it's like, top 5% easy, when taken into account how little time it is, how much comes free with the team (i.e low expenditures) , and how flexible the job is in terms of free time during the off season.
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Re: The Sad Reality Of The WNBA and Its Wage Gap 

Post#216 » by gpoon » Thu Sep 6, 2018 1:15 pm

the sexism and equal pay makes no sense. Male or female, if you had an employee that makes you $1 000 000 and one that makes you $10 000, who are you going to pay more? its simple business no one is forcing people to play in the WNBA and there is no rule that no women can play in the NBA.
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Re: The Sad Reality Of The WNBA and Its Wage Gap 

Post#217 » by Indomitable » Thu Sep 6, 2018 1:59 pm

bondom34 wrote:
righterwriter wrote:
bondom34 wrote:


Are you intentionally cutting out parts of my post? This is what I wrote verbatim in my post one page back:

No, I accounted for ticket sales. You mentioned $26.5M in ticket sales, which I included in the $51.5M revenue made from TV and ticket sales (the number you listed).

I subtracted the cost of salaries (approximately $12M) and operating costs (an estimate of $19M). That leaves $20M to cover the costs of everything else league wide. Even if there were no other costs, they owner's would be only making $1.5M/yr each, which is not a lot for a business which requires $31M of costs. But then we need to consider the other costs.

How much is it for 191 road games of travel/accommodation? How about front office and back office employee costs? Lawyers? Security? Equipment? Advertising? Insurance?

Certainly some money is made on concessions and merchandise, but even with all of that, it's not leaving a lot left over for the owners of the teams.

If you can find out the bottom line of how much money is actually made once all expenses are accounted for, and make it at least slightly worthwhile for the owners of the team financially, then it can be determined that raises are viable.


So it's clearly mentioned in the text bolded.

As for a generalization when it's something that team owners in every other sport do, I'd question why owners in this one specific instance can be trusted especially when some own both WNBA and NBA teams.


Maybe they can be trusted, maybe they can't. You can't just assume that they are all making a lot more profit when there's nothing there to believe such a thing. Find out how much they make in all of their streams of revenue then trust doesn't figure in. As mentioned, typically there is an unbiased accounting service which determines revenue, not just the owners personally hired accountants.

And again, not saying it even should be 50/50, just likely (key word) more than it is now. The league is growing in popularity and the pay should reflect that IMO. Maybe you disagree, which is fine.


How can you say if it should be more when there's no proof that more is financially viable. I disagree because you haven't proven anything. If you can prove it, then there's no need to debate at all, but as long as you claim that there should be more paid out without supporting it, then you'll get people challenging it and disagreeing.

righterwriter wrote:
bondom34 wrote:Also for the "teams don't make enough to pay them more" the players' issue is that they get a lower percentage of BRI.

https://www.swishappeal.com/wnba/2018/7/31/17633152/wnba-player-salaries-revenue-share-opportunities




When there is a bigger pie to share like with the NBA, then costs like travel, paying the lease on the arena, marketing, security, paying employees, etcetera, are covered by the owners without it being as big of an issue.

When you have a smaller pie to share like with the WNBA, you can't simply split revenue in half and still tell the owners to cover the costs.

Below is a link to an article which shows just how much operating costs are for an arena (typically around $15M/yr). Let's say they are in operation 300 days per year, that would come to a cost of $50,000 per night in operation. There are 368 regular season WNBA games and 14 playoff games, so that's 382 x $50,000. This comes to an estimated cost of $19M for the league.

So $12M in salary + $19M in arena costs = $31M. Add in all the other costs and at the end of the day and its likely a lot of work for the owners and management without making much money.

https://www.glendaleaz.com/documents/study-comparisonofoperatingcostsforsimilararenas.pdf



This was your first reply to me. I'm not seeing anything about this other than "its likely a lot of work for the owners and management without making much money. "

As for trust, you can trust who you'd like but again if you do, please do the same when NBA owners demand a cut for NBA players (again not saying they need to be equal), but trust both.

And I'm saying they should see if it's financially viable because to me it seems with the growth of the league and newer TV deal it should be.


I didn't cut your post, that was your reply to me. And sorry if we disagree but no need to be aggressive over it.

Then the WNBA should fricking strike. That is what other leagues did to get a bigger slice. Not this whoa as me nonsense.

They will not because most people will not care and it would end their league. They are a low profit business. The need to work harder to draw fans. The players should participate in social media with people who care.

This is entertainment and no one owes them anything. If they had any real leverage they would not be trying this passive aggressive nonsense.

I hope they do strike, The Owners would just fill the void with more summer league ball. Which is a better product.
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Re: The Sad Reality Of The WNBA and Its Wage Gap 

Post#218 » by MotownMadness » Thu Sep 6, 2018 2:04 pm

thamadkant wrote:
LakersDynasty14 wrote:
GreatWhiteStiff wrote:Do people really need a complex arguemnent why insert WNBA star here isn't earning several million dollars per season?


Equal pay for equal work. They both play basketball, one gets paid a boatload of money more for the same work. This is textbook sexism on multiple levels.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app



All non-pro basketball players playing similar amount of minutes and burn as much energy should be on similar pay as well right?
All those D-leaguers who even out-hustle some NBA rotation players deserve 200K a game then!


your Stupid argument sounds like it was made by someone who doesn't understand economics or how business works.


Equal pay for equal work argument works in the non-entertainment / non-sports industry, where there are no fans or faces that sells the "game" or product to fans. But then again, some out there want equal pay but un-equal work hours and responsibility.

Society is NOT gonna get far if people want more or equal award as someone who puts in more and impacts more, because why try.

Kyle Singler should make the same as LeBron because they both play basketball.
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Re: The Sad Reality Of The WNBA and Its Wage Gap 

Post#219 » by Steelo Green » Thu Sep 6, 2018 2:12 pm

The demand just isn't there like the NBA because the quality just isn't the same.

You get what people are willing to pay for. If the WNBA had the same attendance and TV numbers they would get the same pay, but they don't because they don't get those same numbers, not even close.

This isn't a male/female issue, this is just people prefer one greatly over the other. Women who I know would watch the NBA and not the WNBA because it's just a vastly greater product in terms of quality.
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Re: The Sad Reality Of The WNBA and Its Wage Gap 

Post#220 » by rapsdontlie » Thu Sep 6, 2018 2:19 pm

GreatWhiteStiff wrote:Do people really need a complex arguemnent why insert WNBA star here isn't earning several million dollars per season?


Seriously, I'm not sure how a 24 min long video explanation was necessary.

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