That's it, time to pay college athletes

[magicman1978]

No, there aren't. Duke sells a Zion Williamson jersey, he should get a percentage of that. It's that simple.

Keep focusing on the part I said I agree with and ignoring everything else.

you keep saying it's complicated.

it's not. it's a simple concept: if Duke sells a Zion jersey, Zion should get a cut.

not sure what's complicated about that.

You keep narrowing down the argument to something I already said I agreed with and ignoring the overall complications related to colleges paying players.

Even with jersey sales, it's not that simple. you're using an extreme outlier as an example. Official jersey's don't have names - lets say someone comes in next year and has the same number as Zion, but is just an average player. Just having the same number as Zion will drive his sales. This is more of an issue in college football, but is one nonetheless. Should players be able to capitalize on their likeness - yes, that's something I agree with. But you don't change up the entire college system for outliers. The easiest thing to do would be for the NBA to end the OAD rule.

[elchengue20]

I'm from Uruguay, South America, and this for me is always mind blowing.

If you gonna exploit the kids while making millions and millions every year, at least make colleges tuiton free.

It makes 0 sense to college making that much money, running billionare bussines while paying nothing AND also charging the American people for their education, it's a desgrace and fuciking disgusting.

I appreciate the attempt to make your point, but it seems that you are conflating a lot of issues.

The cost of tuition for a student body far exceeds the amount earned by sports programs. Also, the issue of corporations and their taxes is not really connected to this. Also, whatever a college makes through sports goes back into the development of the program. A coach like Coach K might make a lot of money in salary, but if the university earns a lot through their success then it justifies his salary as they just have more to spend on their athletic department, including 15-20 sports teams that rely on basketball and football to fund them.

It's all not quite as devious as you think it is.

I appreciate your awnser. I know there is other aspects in play, like goverment taxes, progressive taxtation, and so on.

Still watching a system where colleges make billions exploting kids AND still charging large money to the people, for me it's ineveitable to see a system thats really **** up.

Colleges shouldn' be making large profits, that's no their goal. Yes they have to be finance themselves, but this is pure greed.
While student debt is exploding, colleges make billions in pro sports, but they not even pay the players, it's just crazy.

[madmaxmedia]

After reading all posts I finally had my answers from my previous post answered. People really don't care about minor college programs or 99% of the players. They really care about Zion and the other elite players making bucks, wich is mind blowing to me.

How much % of Jersey and Tickets sales should i share with each player? 5%? 3%? Because, you know, we have more then one player in a team. If small college had to pay 60% of their revenue to players, HOW they would be able to offer free schoolarships?

The way some people want is to eliminate sports program from colleges at all and create some minor leagues instead. Yeah, let's worry about Zion earning more money while destroying thousands and thousands opportunities for those who will never make in their entire lives the Nike/whatever contract that Zion will sign as soon as he puts his foot out of Duke.

Said by literally no one in this thread, because that makes absolutely zero sense. Who are the people here that argued that college sports programs shouldn't exist?

And many of the arguments about the illegality and harm done by the NCAA has more to do with the non-stars, than the standouts. It's not about whether Zion gets paid (because he will get his no matter what after college), its that there is no legal or moral basis for how the entire system has been constructed.

[First Step]

then he's not free to do with what he wants?

seriously, some of your guys' arguments are just trash. do better.

What are you getting so angry about? Free to do what he wants, in the sense he nobody is stopping him from starting a jersey company. That is freedom at it's finest. The NCAA has rules that Zion willingly agrees to. You're the one throwing around terms like "coercion and extortion" without understanding the definition of those words.

But just because Zion agrees to it, doesn't mean it's legally justified. Otherwise a lot of unfair legal practices couldn't be fought, because hey both parties agreed to it.

Your opinion seems to be that you see certain things aren't totally kosher, but it's not that bad and hey athletes can pursue other paths. Which is fine, again I'm more interested in the discussion rather than trying to change minds. But others' opinion is more firmly rooted in the belief that the system is absolutely illegal and often immoral, regardless of whether students accept it or not.

College sports is a many multi-billion dollar industry far more powerful than any student-athlete. No single self-interested party is going to fight that with any sort of positive expectation, even if there are serious problems with the industry.

Immoral to who? If you're coming from the perspective that everyone is Anthony Davis, Ben Simmons, or Zion Williamson then sure.. maybe. But it's not immoral to everyone else. What is illegal about it? If you're going to use terms like "illegal", you need to point to a place where they are breaking the law.
I'm not saying there isn't room for reform. I've already said players should be able to make money off their likeness. I think Zion should be able to sign a massive shoe deal with Nike right now. My point is, that the system, as currently structured actually meets the needs for most of the student athletes who aren't going to make any money playing pro, and can't get an endorsement deal.

[clyde21]

Keep focusing on the part I said I agree with and ignoring everything else.

you keep saying it's complicated.

it's not. it's a simple concept: if Duke sells a Zion jersey, Zion should get a cut.

not sure what's complicated about that.

You keep narrowing down the argument to something I already said I agreed with and ignoring the overall complications related to colleges paying players.

Even with jersey sales, it's not that simple. you're using an extreme outlier as an example. Official jersey's don't have names - lets say someone comes in next year and has the same number as Zion, but is just an average player. Just having the same number as Zion will drive his sales. This is more of an issue in college football, but is one nonetheless. Should players be able to capitalize on their likeness - yes, that's something I agree with. But you don't change up the entire college system for outliers. The easiest thing to do would be for the NBA to end the OAD rule.

It doesn't HAVE to have a name on it. If it's branded as a Zion Williamson shirt he should get a cut.

And I linked earlier to Duke jersey with his name on it. I'll take a wild guess and say he doesn't get a cut off that but the school does.

Again, this is pretty simple stuff.

[madmaxmedia]

Keep focusing on the part I said I agree with and ignoring everything else.

you keep saying it's complicated.

it's not. it's a simple concept: if Duke sells a Zion jersey, Zion should get a cut.

not sure what's complicated about that.

You keep narrowing down the argument to something I already said I agreed with and ignoring the overall complications related to colleges paying players.

Even with jersey sales, it's not that simple. you're using an extreme outlier as an example. Official jersey's don't have names - lets say someone comes in next year and has the same number as Zion, but is just an average player. Just having the same number as Zion will drive his sales. This is more of an issue in college football, but is one nonetheless. Should players be able to capitalize on their likeness - yes, that's something I agree with. But you don't change up the entire college system for outliers. The easiest thing to do would be for the NBA to end the OAD rule.

In an ideal world, there would be a labor agreement, just as has been done in the pro sports. They hash it all out and come to an agreement that representatives on both sides agree to, and that's that. It then becomes less about right or wrong, and more about what is negotiated. What is more valuable, guaranteed 4-year scholarships or a little extra jersey money? When both parties can negotiate something then both parties can act in their best self-interest. And because that's the country we live in, and generally that process works well.

But in the real world, the NCAA will never allow anything that compromises the amateur status of student-athletes. They're not going to allow student-athletes anything, whether that means TV money, endorsement money, or booster money.

[the_flash__]

...hiring hundreds of people that work within the program to make it work...

Yeah. Let's hire hundreds of people to make it work but not the main product. That's a student.

It's funny that people who have no idea what's going on within a successful basketball program and overall athletic program just think "pay all the players." When paying teenagers (because committing as a 13 year old is a possibility) you open up a pandora's box of issues that will affect all levels of basketball, as when money is involved and being dangled in front of every half-decent teenage recruit in the country it will change how things are done.

There's always a pandora's box of issues when progressing forward. The answer is NOT to keep things the way they are. The answer is to solve those new issues too.

Or you just continue on with the model now, where the successful NCAA players leave after a year or two of world class training and exposure to become uber rich while the 99% of players who aren't going to make it can just enjoy being young adults playing basketball to get a $100,000 education for free and increase their post-college professional earning power.

Have you seen what courses they are forced into taking? What post-college professional earning power?

What happens if one of these athletes getting their FREE world class training for a year or two suffer a career ending injury? Their NBA prospects disappear.

Pay them for their labor as per free market now. What their post-college NBA potential might be is not your business NCAA.

[First Step]

you keep saying it's complicated.

it's not. it's a simple concept: if Duke sells a Zion jersey, Zion should get a cut.

not sure what's complicated about that.

You keep narrowing down the argument to something I already said I agreed with and ignoring the overall complications related to colleges paying players.

Even with jersey sales, it's not that simple. you're using an extreme outlier as an example. Official jersey's don't have names - lets say someone comes in next year and has the same number as Zion, but is just an average player. Just having the same number as Zion will drive his sales. This is more of an issue in college football, but is one nonetheless. Should players be able to capitalize on their likeness - yes, that's something I agree with. But you don't change up the entire college system for outliers. The easiest thing to do would be for the NBA to end the OAD rule.

It doesn't HAVE to have a name on it. If it's branded as a Zion Williamson shirt he should get a cut.

And I linked earlier to Duke jersey with his name on it. I'll take a wild guess and say he doesn't get a cut off that but the school does.

Again, this is pretty simple stuff.

Wrong. The school doesn't get any money off that. If anything, the school probably tries to sue that company. That website you posted as nothing to do with Duke. Anyone can make a bootleg jersey and sell it. I've got some Gucci flip flops for 40 bucks if you want to buy them..

[the_flash__]

How much do you pay the 12th guy on the division III schools? How much do you pay the 12th guy on Duke? How much do you pay the 7th best hurdler on the best track team in the nation?

How much should some random guy in a coffee shop with a guitar get paid for singing a song versus Drake? The regulatory scheme that everyone that players a sport for a college gets the same compensation is a creation of the NCAA and Congress, it's not something that has to be the case.

Let the schools decide. If Oregon wants to pay a hurdler $50k on top of a scholly let them. If Duke thinks their 12th man should be happy with just a scholly, fine, but if North Carolina wants to offer him $100k on top of that then he can go to UNC.

There are 500,000 college athletes in the world. Do we pay them all?

Yes. If you're going to make money from them, give them a cut.

[clyde21]

You keep narrowing down the argument to something I already said I agreed with and ignoring the overall complications related to colleges paying players.

Even with jersey sales, it's not that simple. you're using an extreme outlier as an example. Official jersey's don't have names - lets say someone comes in next year and has the same number as Zion, but is just an average player. Just having the same number as Zion will drive his sales. This is more of an issue in college football, but is one nonetheless. Should players be able to capitalize on their likeness - yes, that's something I agree with. But you don't change up the entire college system for outliers. The easiest thing to do would be for the NBA to end the OAD rule.

It doesn't HAVE to have a name on it. If it's branded as a Zion Williamson shirt he should get a cut.

And I linked earlier to Duke jersey with his name on it. I'll take a wild guess and say he doesn't get a cut off that but the school does.

Again, this is pretty simple stuff.

Wrong. The school doesn't get any money off that. If anything, the school probably tries to sue that company. That website you posted as nothing to do with Duke. Anyone can make a bootleg jersey and sell it. I've got some Gucci flip flops for 40 bucks if you want to buy them..

that website has been up and running for a while. there's no way Duke is letting that website run without getting a profit from them. that's not how it works.

and please, for the people at home, do let us know why the players can't make a cut off their own jerseys or their own ticket sales? one legitimate argument. Go.

[mademan]

Immoral to who? If you're coming from the perspective that everyone is Anthony Davis, Ben Simmons, or Zion Williamson then sure.. maybe. But it's not immoral to everyone else. What is illegal about it? If you're going to use terms like "illegal", you need to point to a place where they are breaking the law.
I'm not saying there isn't room for reform. I've already said players should be able to make money off their likeness. I think Zion should be able to sign a massive shoe deal with Nike right now. My point is, that the system, as currently structured actually meets the needs for most of the student athletes who aren't going to make any money playing pro, and can't get an endorsement deal.

The second you set out a venture where labour isnt paid, it becomes immoral. This isnt communist russia; you cant make money off of people without paying them. It goes against all capitalistic ideas we believe in. If someone brings value, they get paid for that value. It's not "if someone brings in value, we'll decide unilaterally how best to spread it around while keeping some of it". Businesses in america arent allowed to operate like that, and it's a travesty that the NCAA is able to play the 'amateur' card while raking in billion in revenue.

[clyde21]

There are 500,000 college athletes in the world. Do we pay them all?

amazong has 600,000 employees...do they have to pay them all?

[madmaxmedia]

Or you just continue on with the model now, where the successful NCAA players leave after a year or two of world class training and exposure to become uber rich while the 99% of players who aren't going to make it can just enjoy being young adults playing basketball to get a $100,000 education for free and increase their post-college professional earning power.

Have you seen what courses they are forced into taking? What post-college professional earning power?

What happens if one of these athletes getting their FREE world class training for a year or two suffer a career ending injury? Their NBA prospects disappear.

Pay them for their labor as per free market now. What their post-college NBA potential might be is not your business NCAA.

He is also not aware that not all student-athletes actually get that full 4-year education, scholarships can and are revoked for many reasons- including injury. And when that's a bad look for the school, coaches will run off scholarship players that aren't contributing to wins.

But he's aware again that the reason why things are this way is that the NCAA represents the schools, not the student-athletes.

Take the worst, most owner-centric commissioner in the history of pro sports, and the NCAA tops that.

[magicman1978]

you keep saying it's complicated.

it's not. it's a simple concept: if Duke sells a Zion jersey, Zion should get a cut.

not sure what's complicated about that.

You keep narrowing down the argument to something I already said I agreed with and ignoring the overall complications related to colleges paying players.

Even with jersey sales, it's not that simple. you're using an extreme outlier as an example. Official jersey's don't have names - lets say someone comes in next year and has the same number as Zion, but is just an average player. Just having the same number as Zion will drive his sales. This is more of an issue in college football, but is one nonetheless. Should players be able to capitalize on their likeness - yes, that's something I agree with. But you don't change up the entire college system for outliers. The easiest thing to do would be for the NBA to end the OAD rule.

It doesn't HAVE to have a name on it. If it's branded as a Zion Williamson shirt he should get a cut.

And I linked earlier to Duke jersey with his name on it. I'll take a wild guess and say he doesn't get a cut off that but the school does.

Again, this is pretty simple stuff.

The school doesn't get money from some Chinese website selling knockoff jerseys (the NCAA changed their hypocritical rules and no longer allow names on jerseys when they previously profited off of selling them). So Zion only gets a cut of jerseys that had his number on it for the year he plays, nothing else - none of the other gear that probably gets sold because of him? Players will start fighting for his jersey number next year so they can make money on residual sales. Simple in your mind, not simple in reality. And are we just talking jersey sales now, not actually colleges paying players? because the money for the jersey sales should be going directly to the players, why funnel it through the colleges to then play the players? What about the overall sponsorship deals - like the $100M deal Michigan has with Nike, should players get a cut of that or just the jersey sales? Duke has a huge deal with Nike before Zion came on board, should Zion also get a cut of that deal? Yeah, lets narrow it down to just jerseys with numbers on it. that's all we need to pay players. simple stuff.

[First Step]

It doesn't HAVE to have a name on it. If it's branded as a Zion Williamson shirt he should get a cut.

And I linked earlier to Duke jersey with his name on it. I'll take a wild guess and say he doesn't get a cut off that but the school does.

Again, this is pretty simple stuff.

Wrong. The school doesn't get any money off that. If anything, the school probably tries to sue that company. That website you posted as nothing to do with Duke. Anyone can make a bootleg jersey and sell it. I've got some Gucci flip flops for 40 bucks if you want to buy them..

that website has been up and running for a while. there's no way Duke is letting that website run without getting a profit from them. that's not how it works.

and please, for the people at home, do let us know why the players can't make a cut off their own jerseys or their own ticket sales? one legitimate argument. Go.

For the same reason Gucci doesn't shut this site down. https://www.ioffer.com/c/1010291/gucci-bags
You think Gucci is getting a cut from bootleg stuff? Turns out China does not care about IP.
I've already stated many times that I am ok with them making money off their names. But the school doesn't sell jersey's with the names on the back of them... Let players make money off endorsements, Deals that they generate with whatever brands they want to partner with. They can make millions, and then you don't have to worry about paying the Lacrosse players 250 dollars each off ticket sales. THey would prefer a scholarship than a commission off ticket sales.

[inDe_eD]

You keep narrowing down the argument to something I already said I agreed with and ignoring the overall complications related to colleges paying players.

Even with jersey sales, it's not that simple. you're using an extreme outlier as an example. Official jersey's don't have names - lets say someone comes in next year and has the same number as Zion, but is just an average player. Just having the same number as Zion will drive his sales. This is more of an issue in college football, but is one nonetheless. Should players be able to capitalize on their likeness - yes, that's something I agree with. But you don't change up the entire college system for outliers. The easiest thing to do would be for the NBA to end the OAD rule.

It's really that simple, and nothing else has to change. If a guy like Zion has the option to go play on the biggest stage and make the most money, and still chooses to go to school, the arguments about coercion and illusion of choice will ring pretty hollow. Right now though, I tend to side with people thinking this is all pretty scummy, because it really is. Yes there are options, but if you're a borderline NBA talent, you really are gambling by taking anything other than the NCAA route.

[DiogoLandim]

After reading all posts I finally had my answers from my previous post answered. People really don't care about minor college programs or 99% of the players. They really care about Zion and the other elite players making bucks, wich is mind blowing to me.

How much % of Jersey and Tickets sales should i share with each player? 5%? 3%? Because, you know, we have more then one player in a team. If small college had to pay 60% of their revenue to players, HOW they would be able to offer free schoolarships?

The way some people want is to eliminate sports program from colleges at all and create some minor leagues instead. Yeah, let's worry about Zion earning more money while destroying thousands and thousands opportunities for those who will never make in their entire lives the Nike/whatever contract that Zion will sign as soon as he puts his foot out of Duke.

Said by literally no one in this thread, because that makes absolutely zero sense. Who are the people here that argued that college sports programs shouldn't exist?

And many of the arguments about the illegality and harm done by the NCAA has more to do with the non-stars, than the standouts. It's not about whether Zion gets paid (because he will get his no matter what after college), its that there is no legal or moral basis for how the entire system has been constructed.

Really, because I saw nobody counting small college programs money's here. It's coach K salary, Zion revenue, price tickets, etc. If these colleges has to pay for their athletes, how should they be able to offer free scholarship? You literally didn't answer any of the other points, because they do adress small time players.

How do you value market for players leaving HS? How contracts should be structured? People counting checks from the College should enjoy free scholarships programs? If a rookie leaves one program to play sophomore for another one who pays better, the secong program should pay the first one?

And after NCAA, they should pay for other programs as well? Gymnastic also has some people watching for them, let's start to share revenue with them?

Creating a market through a system that has a lot of contribution putting U.S.A on top of world when it comes to sports has more damage potential than anything else.

[madmaxmedia]

You keep narrowing down the argument to something I already said I agreed with and ignoring the overall complications related to colleges paying players.

Even with jersey sales, it's not that simple. you're using an extreme outlier as an example. Official jersey's don't have names - lets say someone comes in next year and has the same number as Zion, but is just an average player. Just having the same number as Zion will drive his sales. This is more of an issue in college football, but is one nonetheless. Should players be able to capitalize on their likeness - yes, that's something I agree with. But you don't change up the entire college system for outliers. The easiest thing to do would be for the NBA to end the OAD rule.

It doesn't HAVE to have a name on it. If it's branded as a Zion Williamson shirt he should get a cut.

And I linked earlier to Duke jersey with his name on it. I'll take a wild guess and say he doesn't get a cut off that but the school does.

Again, this is pretty simple stuff.

The school doesn't get money from some Chinese website selling knockoff jerseys. So Zion only gets a cut of jerseys that had his number on it for the year he plays, nothing else - none of the other gear that probably gets sold because of him? Players will start fighting for his jersey number next year so they can make money on residual sales. Simple in your mind, not simple in reality. And are we just talking jersey sales now, not actually colleges paying players? because the money for the jersey sales should be going directly to the players, why funnel it through the colleges to then play the players? What about the overall sponsorship deals - like the $100M deal Michigan has with Nike, should players get a cut of that or just the jersey sales? Duke has a huge deal with Nike before Zion came on board, should Zion also get a cut of that deal? Yeah, lets narrow it down to just jerseys with numbers on it. that's all we need to pay players. simple stuff.

But schools and colleges can go ahead and sign multi-million multi-year contracts with shoe companies, that's okay because we don't have to figure out a fair way to distribute the profits.

None of this is the problem, because none of what you state is why there is not distribution of jersey sales profits to players. The NCAA is fundamentally opposed to players getting any revenue whatsoever and does not even want to consider it, much less try. That is the problem.

I think most people assume that its okay to divert all the money to the NCAA, because they trust they will figure out the best way to allocate the funds in the best interest of all parties, except that there is plenty of evidence that indicates otherwise.

[miamiheat319]

It doesn't HAVE to have a name on it. If it's branded as a Zion Williamson shirt he should get a cut.

And I linked earlier to Duke jersey with his name on it. I'll take a wild guess and say he doesn't get a cut off that but the school does.

Again, this is pretty simple stuff.

Wrong. The school doesn't get any money off that. If anything, the school probably tries to sue that company. That website you posted as nothing to do with Duke. Anyone can make a bootleg jersey and sell it. I've got some Gucci flip flops for 40 bucks if you want to buy them..

that website has been up and running for a while. there's no way Duke is letting that website run without getting a profit from them. that's not how it works.

and please, for the people at home, do let us know why the players can't make a cut off their own jerseys or their own ticket sales? one legitimate argument. Go.

http://www.authenticclippersstore.com/
http://www.authenticnuggetstore.com/
https://www.nuggetstoreonline.com/

There are plenty of bootleg websites up for college, NBA, and I'm sure for other professional leagues. Neither the school nor the players are benefiting from these sites. Here's the link to Duke's official online store:

https://shopdukestores.duke.edu/ePOS?form=shared3/gm/merch.html&item_number=47093&cat=961&store=106&design=106

where Zion's name is nowhere to be found on the jersey. In fact, when you search "Zion Williamson" on the Duke online store, not a single result comes up. Weird. Almost like Duke isn't selling merchandise to benefit off these kids.

https://shopdukestores.duke.edu/ePOS?store=106&search_category=Front+Page&listtype=begin&keytype=sku&index=0&form=shared3%2Fsearch%2Fsearch_results.html&design=106&KEY=zion+williamson&submit.x=0&submit.y=0

Bootleg sites exist all over the internet. If you're going to argue, at least present accurate evidence.

[clyde21]

You keep narrowing down the argument to something I already said I agreed with and ignoring the overall complications related to colleges paying players.

Even with jersey sales, it's not that simple. you're using an extreme outlier as an example. Official jersey's don't have names - lets say someone comes in next year and has the same number as Zion, but is just an average player. Just having the same number as Zion will drive his sales. This is more of an issue in college football, but is one nonetheless. Should players be able to capitalize on their likeness - yes, that's something I agree with. But you don't change up the entire college system for outliers. The easiest thing to do would be for the NBA to end the OAD rule.

It doesn't HAVE to have a name on it. If it's branded as a Zion Williamson shirt he should get a cut.

And I linked earlier to Duke jersey with his name on it. I'll take a wild guess and say he doesn't get a cut off that but the school does.

Again, this is pretty simple stuff.

The school doesn't get money from some Chinese website selling knockoff jerseys. So Zion only gets a cut of jerseys that had his number on it for the year he plays, nothing else - none of the other gear that probably gets sold because of him? Players will start fighting for his jersey number next year so they can make money on residual sales. Simple in your mind, not simple in reality. And are we just talking jersey sales now, not actually colleges paying players? because the money for the jersey sales should be going directly to the players, why funnel it through the colleges to then play the players? What about the overall sponsorship deals - like the $100M deal Michigan has with Nike, should players get a cut of that or just the jersey sales? Duke has a huge deal with Nike before Zion came on board, should Zion also get a cut of that deal? Yeah, lets narrow it down to just jerseys with numbers on it. that's all we need to pay players. simple stuff.

You have no idea what your even arguing on this point. In an effort to make it more complicated than it had to be, you confused yourself in the process.

Yes, if the jersey is being marketed as a Zion Williamson jersey, Zion Williamson should be able to make money off it. No one said Zion should be making money in perpetuity any time Duke sells a jersey with the #1 on it. That's just you trying to BS your way thru this discussion.

And it's not just limited to jerseys. If you specifically pay for a ticket to go watch the Duke players play, a portion of that ticket should go to the, you know actually players that you went there to watch. If the Duke players are on a poster, a portion of that should go to the players. If they're on a mug, or a t-shirt, or a sweater, they should get a cut. Anything that leverages their likeness a portion of it should go to the players. Point blank.