2021-22 NBA Rookie Thread (part 3)

[LAL1947]

They are sorted by EPM (Estimated Plus-Minus). This is the best advanced stat I've found that I have access to so far. The only one that may be slightly better is DARKO/DPM, but I haven't worked out how to pull that in a stable way yet.

Also note I've put limits on minutes (10+) and games (> 40% of max) so there are some rookies who don't show up until they reach those thresholds.

Thanks for sharing both stats, EPM and DARKO/DPM.

Glad to see and be able to use stats that have not been given dumbass names, like LEBRON or RAPTOR. These two stats need to be banned IMO, for sneakily trying to make those two words household items. At least, Darko could refer to anyone and has a humorous connection because of Darko Milicic.

[LoveMyRaps]

I don't think even the biggest Barnes fans expected 15/8/3 from Barnes after 19 games. The kid is the future for the Raptors, and the front runner for the ROY.

It's so hard to pin point a comparison because it really does seem he has bits of pieces of so many different players in his game. I would not be surprised if Barnes hits a stat line of 26/8/6/2 and becomes a future MVP contender. If you haven't seen the kid play, I really do encourage you to watch a Raptors game this season. Barnes is special.

He is not front runner for the ROY. Mobley is.

Bro ignore this srhcan dude. There's a zero percent chance he's a legit Raptors fan.
Go through his posts (only has about 30 so shouldn't take long)...
He ranks Giddey ahead of Barnes
Even suggested trade Barnes for Myles Turner

100% a troll.

[Blacksheep25]

I don't think even the biggest Barnes fans expected 15/8/3 from Barnes after 19 games. The kid is the future for the Raptors, and the front runner for the ROY.

It's so hard to pin point a comparison because it really does seem he has bits of pieces of so many different players in his game. I would not be surprised if Barnes hits a stat line of 26/8/6/2 and becomes a future MVP contender. If you haven't seen the kid play, I really do encourage you to watch a Raptors game this season. Barnes is special.

Barnes is very good but is not the front runner at all. Mobley is head and shoulders above everyone literally and figuratively. He is a certain +500 player which I don’t think any of the rookies are.

The irony is that Barnes’s offensive capabilities have translated better then expected but his defensive capabilities has wavered. Still for sure second best no doubt but Mobley is an All NBA defender right now and the offensive stuff is a free bonus.

Watch Cavs will start winning again like before when he was out it was just a blip on the radar.

10-6 with
0-4 without including sitting out last q through injury

Averaged 18/8 and the Cavs went 5-1 when Marks/Sexton were out. Don’t want Marks to start stifling Mobley again.

And there isn’t much separation talent wise on both lists. Raps wing depth and quality beats out the Cavs.

Also Lamelo and Ben won the award averaging less ppg so I have no doubt Mobley will win by a decent margin at the end if all play enough games.

Really bizarre that he’s the opposite of what he was thought to be. Looked good shooting tonight, nice to see him put up 9 3s on good efficiency, yet got blown by all night once again and was easily the worst player for the Raps if the objective is winning the game. Has no ability to guard smaller quick guys.

He actually looks slow footed on defense. Truly strange.kid played nice, but just take his scouting report and switch strengths and weaknesses. I’m laughing at the comparisons to elite defenders. He can’t guard anything right now.

Pippen was one of the best defensive players of all time and a top 50 all time player.

[LoveMyRaps]

I don't think even the biggest Barnes fans expected 15/8/3 from Barnes after 19 games. The kid is the future for the Raptors, and the front runner for the ROY.

It's so hard to pin point a comparison because it really does seem he has bits of pieces of so many different players in his game. I would not be surprised if Barnes hits a stat line of 26/8/6/2 and becomes a future MVP contender. If you haven't seen the kid play, I really do encourage you to watch a Raptors game this season. Barnes is special.

Barnes is very good but is not the front runner at all. Mobley is head and shoulders above everyone literally and figuratively. He is a certain +500 player which I don’t think any of the rookies are.

The irony is that Barnes’s offensive capabilities have translated better then expected but his defensive capabilities has wavered. Still for sure second best no doubt but Mobley is an All NBA defender right now and the offensive stuff is a free bonus.

Watch Cavs will start winning again like before when he was out it was just a blip on the radar.

10-6 with
0-4 without including sitting out last q through injury

Averaged 18/8 and the Cavs went 5-1 when Marks/Sexton were out. Don’t want Marks to start stifling Mobley again.

And there isn’t much separation talent wise on both lists. Raps wing depth and quality beats out the Cavs.

Also Lamelo and Ben won the award averaging less ppg so I have no doubt Mobley will win by a decent margin at the end if all play enough games.

Really bizarre that he’s the opposite of what he was thought to be. Looked good shooting tonight, nice to see him put up 9 3s on good efficiency, yet got blown by all night once again and was easily the worst player for the Raps if the objective is winning the game. Has no ability to guard smaller quick guys.

He actually looks slow footed on defense. Truly strange.kid played nice, but just take his scouting report and switch strengths and weaknesses. I’m laughing at the comparisons to elite defenders. He can’t guard anything right now.

Pippen was one of the best defensive players of all time and a top 50 all time player.

He was terrific defensively to start the season. Was completely shutting down guys like Tatum, Brown, etc.
But the last couple of games he just looks less aggressive on both ends of the floor, especially the defensive end. I think it has more to do with his conditioning. He was coming off the bench in college and wasn't playing 30+mpg like Cade, Mobley, etc. That might be why he looks a bit slow footed on defense right now.

Regarding your "he was easily the worst player for the Raps" take... yeah, that's just straight up idiotic.

[CptCrunch]

Barnes plays well, the ROY chants start. He has a few crap games, whisper silent.

What is Barnes' case for ROY? Like a few fractions higher in counting stats at worse efficiency. Let's just ignore defense and the fact that Mobley has a legitimate case for all-NBA defensive team.

[MrBigShot]

Mobley is the front runner rn imo

[Got Nuffin]

Mobley is absolutely the front-runner and I can't recall many rookies ever having the kind of defensive impact he makes, but anyone saying Scottie Barnes was the worst?? player for Toronto has no idea what basketball is. He's consistently been the 2nd-3rd best player for his team all season on both ends which is more than you can say for the vast majority of rookies of any given year playing on a semi-decent team. He's way ahead of where he was supposed to be offensively, which I will take 100% of the time because we know he will have the ability to defend pretty well as he seasons.

Considering a lot of 'raw' rookies like Barnes have exponential growth to their abilities in years 2-4, I think it's fair to say that he will likely be a star in the league sooner or later.

Mobley is incredible but that shouldn't take anything away from what Barnes and Giddey are doing. Barnes because the knock on him was how raw he was and that he probably would have gone higher if he showed out more in college, Giddey because he's a year younger than all these guys and we might not even see his ceiling yet. Those 3 have been the most impressive rooks for me so far with Cade also showing flashes here and there early.

[QingJames]

Barnes plays well, the ROY chants start. He has a few crap games, whisper silent.

What is Barnes' case for ROY? Like a few fractions higher in counting stats at worse efficiency. Let's just ignore defense and the fact that Mobley has a legitimate case for all-NBA defensive team.

His case is essentially that he's a much better offensive player than Mobley, which is true. I don't personally think it outranks Mobley's defense, but that's the case for Barnes.

[God Squad]

Read on Twitter

Even though he's struggling shooting, some legit defensive prowess being shown so far by Suggs as a rookie

It's not just his shooting. It's his ball handling, lack of a jumper and finishing at the rim. Everything he was good or decent at in collage seems like a uphill battle in the league. His defense is 100% percent legit and has held true since summer league. He makes timely passes, but not elite by any means. If he can get some consistency on his jumper then his ceiling looks like a Jrue type-ish, if not then George Hill 2.0.

[God Squad]

Great game by Barnes tonight. Celts have played the Raps 3 times already and Scottie has been impressive in all 3 games.

Honestly people think we over hype him or are talking out of our A$$. There's something there with this kid, something special. He's still raw and a project so there will be trial and error. Raptors are trying to instill a scorers mentality into him as he's always been a passive play maker for the most part. Even the jump shot that everyone said was broken, doesn't look that far off to me. Everyone here keeps talking about Scotties lack of defense, that's' something I'm not worried about at all. They need to continue to hammer in that he needs to stay aggressive and get to his spots.

I don't know what his ceiling is as a player, But I know the Raptors brass think it's quite high given time and development.

[Blacksheep25]

Barnes plays well, the ROY chants start. He has a few crap games, whisper silent.

What is Barnes' case for ROY? Like a few fractions higher in counting stats at worse efficiency. Let's just ignore defense and the fact that Mobley has a legitimate case for all-NBA defensive team.

His case is essentially that he's a much better offensive player than Mobley, which is true. I don't personally think it outranks Mobley's defense, but that's the case for Barnes.

Barnes joined a team projected to win 37 games and they are under pace. Well under pace when he has played at 7-12.

They are a worse team when he’s on the court. That’s true of most rookies. His defense has become horrible. He was -22 last night, double the next closest guy. I don’t place a lot in +/- in any one game, but he was the worst last game, and they’re certainly sacrificing winning playing him so much as his defense dropped off a cliff.

When OG comes back, they need to make a choice between playing him 16 minutes a game and trying to win or tank by playing him starter minutes. He might be less a liability on defense with less minutes.

Mobley joined a team that was projected to win 25.5 games when it opened, lost their leading scorer, and is 10-6 when he plays. He’s a complete positive on the court. He’s the difference between winning and losing.

He’s the first or second best player on the team .

This isn’t close. It’s a matter of can Mobley stay healthy, and if so, they aren’t in the same conversation for those who value winning.

One is detracting from his team to be on the court. The other team is dependent on a rookie to win.

[XTC]

Barnes plays well, the ROY chants start. He has a few crap games, whisper silent.

What is Barnes' case for ROY? Like a few fractions higher in counting stats at worse efficiency. Let's just ignore defense and the fact that Mobley has a legitimate case for all-NBA defensive team.

His case is essentially that he's a much better offensive player than Mobley, which is true. I don't personally think it outranks Mobley's defense, but that's the case for Barnes.

Barnes joined a team projected to win 37 games and they are under pace. Well under pace when he has played at 7-12.

They are a worse team when he’s on the court. That’s true of most rookies. His defense has become horrible. He was -22 last night, double the next closest guy. I don’t place a lot in +/- in any one game, but he was the worst last game, and they’re certainly sacrificing winning playing him so much as his defense dropped off a cliff.

When OG comes back, they need to make a choice between playing him 16 minutes a game and trying to win or tank by playing him starter minutes. He might be less a liability on defense with less minutes.

Mobley joined a team that was projected to win 25.5 games when it opened, lost their leading scorer, and is 10-6 when he plays. He’s a complete positive on the court. He’s the difference between winning and losing.

He’s the first or second best player on the team .

This isn’t close. It’s a matter of can Mobley stay healthy, and if so, they aren’t in the same conversation for those who value winning.

One is detracting from his team to be on the court. The other team is dependent on a rookie to win.

It's like some people are trying to type it into existence that Scottie Barnes has been bad

You can try, but that doesn't mean it's true.

Pinning a teams record on a 20 year old rookie averaging 15/8/3... LMAO....I'd love to sig half the posters in this thread. I'm willing to bet Barnes will be an allstar caliber player very soon. Anyone care to have a sig bet? Especially those posters calling Barnes a future role player. I didn't hear aby chatter when Barnes was playing defense on KD a couple weeks back, and KD had nothing but praise for the kid... GTFO trolls

The jealousy is real, you can tell posters here are salty af The Raptors got the best player potentially in the draft at #4

Barnes and Mobley have similar stats (with Barnes leading in points, rebounds, assists, and steals), and the exact same PER at this point with 16.8... but one guy is a generational defensive force, and the other guy shouldn't play more than 16 minutes... because... plus minus...

I didn't know Patty Mills is the best player on the Nets with his +195 and a +/- of 14.5! I wonder if they should start playing KD and James Harden 16 minutes per game.

[God Squad]

His case is essentially that he's a much better offensive player than Mobley, which is true. I don't personally think it outranks Mobley's defense, but that's the case for Barnes.

Barnes joined a team projected to win 37 games and they are under pace. Well under pace when he has played at 7-12.

They are a worse team when he’s on the court. That’s true of most rookies. His defense has become horrible. He was -22 last night, double the next closest guy. I don’t place a lot in +/- in any one game, but he was the worst last game, and they’re certainly sacrificing winning playing him so much as his defense dropped off a cliff.

When OG comes back, they need to make a choice between playing him 16 minutes a game and trying to win or tank by playing him starter minutes. He might be less a liability on defense with less minutes.

Mobley joined a team that was projected to win 25.5 games when it opened, lost their leading scorer, and is 10-6 when he plays. He’s a complete positive on the court. He’s the difference between winning and losing.

He’s the first or second best player on the team .

This isn’t close. It’s a matter of can Mobley stay healthy, and if so, they aren’t in the same conversation for those who value winning.

One is detracting from his team to be on the court. The other team is dependent on a rookie to win.

It's like some people are trying to type it into existence that Scottie Barnes has been bad

You can try, but that doesn't mean it's true.

Pinning a teams record on a 20 year old rookie averaging 15/8/3... LMAO....I'd love to sig half the posters in this thread. I'm willing to bet Barnes will be an allstar caliber player very soon. Anyone care to have a sig bet? Especially those posters calling Barnes a future role player. I didn't hear aby chatter when Barnes was playing defense on KD a couple weeks back, and KD had nothing but praise for the kid... GTFO trolls

The jealousy is real, you can tell posters here are salty af The Raptors got the best player potentially in the draft at #4

Barnes and Mobley have similar stats (with Barnes leading in points, rebounds, assists, and steals), and the exact same PER at this point with 16.8... but one guy is a generational defensive force, and the other guy shouldn't play more than 16 minutes... because... plus minus...

I didn't know Patty Mills is the best player on the Nets with his +195 and a +/- of 14.5! I wonder if they should start playing KD and James Harden 16 minutes per game.

You all put too much stock into what random realgm members think. As if their opinion means more than yours, or vise versa. I personally also have Mobley as ROY, but regardless of what I think Barnes is the leading candidate for ROY and that's facts, not opinion. In Mobes next game he could very well take that #1 spot because he's that good. Anyways ROY isn't the end all be all unless you're Jalen Green .

I just don't see the need for Barnes vs Mobley as IMO we're the teams that so far "won" on draft night. While Detroit and Houston who choose first and second could have had both if they actually scouted them properly. But Houston had a boner for Green and Troy Weaver IIRC did think about Mobley & Barnes, but fell for the "How can you pass on Cade" trap that the media and fans create.

Same way I can't be mad at Orlando for not taking Barnes because he wasn't an option for them, or Toronto with Mobley.

They're all just rookies and there will be ups and downs. But I do think Barnes scoring prowess and more so his mentality to actually score has been a revelation that no one, not even his biggest fans probably saw coming this early on. His jumpshot for all it's concerns doesn't look broken and he's been showing it since he got into the league.

Mobley on the other hand has been a defensive beast that I don't think anyone can really deny it. People thought he'd need to bulk up a ton and be a project, yet here he is contesting everything that goes up. The Cavs pairing Mobes with Allen front court has been a genius move that shouldn't be overlooked.

[God Squad]

I have an honest question for Pistons/Rocket fans. Do Green and Cade dislike each other? Or is it simply I have to outplay this guy drafted ahead of me? They both seem to relish the 1 vs 1 against one another. I ask because I noticed Barnes for example is close with Green/Suggs/Cade, but I'm not sure he has any ties or friendship to Mobley.

[QingJames]

Barnes plays well, the ROY chants start. He has a few crap games, whisper silent.

What is Barnes' case for ROY? Like a few fractions higher in counting stats at worse efficiency. Let's just ignore defense and the fact that Mobley has a legitimate case for all-NBA defensive team.

His case is essentially that he's a much better offensive player than Mobley, which is true. I don't personally think it outranks Mobley's defense, but that's the case for Barnes.

Barnes joined a team projected to win 37 games and they are under pace. Well under pace when he has played at 7-12.

They are a worse team when he’s on the court. That’s true of most rookies. His defense has become horrible. He was -22 last night, double the next closest guy. I don’t place a lot in +/- in any one game, but he was the worst last game, and they’re certainly sacrificing winning playing him so much as his defense dropped off a cliff.

When OG comes back, they need to make a choice between playing him 16 minutes a game and trying to win or tank by playing him starter minutes. He might be less a liability on defense with less minutes.

Mobley joined a team that was projected to win 25.5 games when it opened, lost their leading scorer, and is 10-6 when he plays. He’s a complete positive on the court. He’s the difference between winning and losing.

He’s the first or second best player on the team .

This isn’t close. It’s a matter of can Mobley stay healthy, and if so, they aren’t in the same conversation for those who value winning.

One is detracting from his team to be on the court. The other team is dependent on a rookie to win.

Only engaging with your blatant anti-Barnes agenda to correct the misinformation that the Raps were projected to win 37 games. Their O/U was 31.5.

You'd think Barnes was Trae Young with the way people are talking about his defense now, like he's the worst defensive player in the draft class. Such a blatant hit job. Yes his defense is slacking because he's taking a huge role on offense. We've seen him be an incredibly elite defender in the NBA already. He's tired, it is what it is. I'd rather him use his energy to keep pushing his boundaries on offense because he looks light years ahead of the rest of the rookies on that end in terms of his feel for the game, his decision making in the flow of the offense, and his ability to adjust his game really quickly, like he's done with his shot.

90% of the Raptors fans in this thread are saying Mobley is the frontrunner for ROY, including myself. It's just sad that some people have to pump him up by trying to diminish Barnes.

EDIT: I should say he looks light years ahead of the other rookies on offense with the exception of Franz, who is also showcasing a much more complete game on that end than people thought he would have. He's still been better than Franz offensively but the gap is much smaller than between Barnes and the rest of the rookies.

[OrlMagic05]

Suggs's calling card was PG. Thats how he was advertised. In the draft the consensus was he will be taken by Raptors to be their future foundational PG as their current PG Lowry is leaving. You cannot change his definition just 1 month into season. He will be compared with other PGs.
* He is at #4 among top 5 in assists (behind Giddey, Cade and Mitchell and just above Barnes).
* He has worst A/TO ratio among top 5 in assists.
* He has worst True Shooting %age among top 5 in assists.

He will NEVER be the fulltime PG for the Magic, so YES you can change his position considering he will be their SG. Fultz will be the starting PG when he gets back which will most likely push Cole to the bench as a 6th man, which leaves Suggs as the starting SG.

Please tell me why he should be designated to the PG spot considering that WILL NOT be his position moving forward?

This is your thinking that Suggs will not be PG moving forward. But Orlando drafted Suggs as a PG long-term. Before draft there was a big hole at PG spot as Orlando figured out that Fultz cannot be starting level PG in this league just like 76ers figured it out before. Thats why Orlando was super happy when Raptors did not draft Suggs. So the plan is still there that PG position is Suggs's to lose.

Cole will stay as SG in starting rotation. I dont think Orlando has anyone better than Cole for SG spot.

If Orlando figured Fultz couldnt be a starting level point guard, they wouldnt have given him a 4 year 60 MILLION DOLLAR contract. Fultz is the Starting PG for the Magic and the Magic drafted Suggs because he was supposedly the BPA, not because he was a PG.

[lobosloboslobos]

Not here to argue just to celebrate the growth of our team's future leader. Scottie hit 4 3s last night, which is shocking because going into the season nobody thought he could even hit from mid-range let alone deep. I think a lot of his current defensive issues are because the team is really working on developing his offensive game and there's only so much any of us can concentrate on at the same time, especially a kid playing in the NBA for the first time. Also, just for the delight of it, check out that sweeeet feed he delivers at 1:01. Again skipping the whole ROY argument I should think it's clear just why Raps fans are so excited about this kid. His ceiling is ridiculous... anyway, enjoy...

Watch on YouTube

[srhcan]

He is not front runner for the ROY. Mobley is.

Bro ignore this srhcan dude. There's a zero percent chance he's a legit Raptors fan.
Go through his posts (only has about 30 so shouldn't take long)...
He ranks Giddey ahead of Barnes
Even suggested trade Barnes for Myles Turner

100% a troll.

wow anybody you dont agree with is a troll? lol are you in middle school?

I ranked Barnes very high initially #1 (even above Mobley), when both his offense and defense were fantastic. But then Mobley start dominating while Barnes's defense went down. Currently I would say Barnes is a bit better than Mobley on offense but Mobley is much much better than Barnes on defense. So Mobley is clear #1 as of now unless Barnes picks up his defensive intensity and then Barnes may become #1 again.

CBS Sports rank rookies by week. The week when Mobley was hurt and not playing, both Cade and Giddey were awesome while Barnes had some below average games. That week Giddey was ranked #2 ahead of Barnes #3.

Regarding Myles Turner thread, if you want him then there are only 4 players who may incite Indiana to do the trade: OG, Siakam, Fred and Barnes. I give all of them as options but mention my preference is Fred for Turner with Barnes moving to PG position.

[Blacksheep25]

His case is essentially that he's a much better offensive player than Mobley, which is true. I don't personally think it outranks Mobley's defense, but that's the case for Barnes.

Barnes joined a team projected to win 37 games and they are under pace. Well under pace when he has played at 7-12.

They are a worse team when he’s on the court. That’s true of most rookies. His defense has become horrible. He was -22 last night, double the next closest guy. I don’t place a lot in +/- in any one game, but he was the worst last game, and they’re certainly sacrificing winning playing him so much as his defense dropped off a cliff.

When OG comes back, they need to make a choice between playing him 16 minutes a game and trying to win or tank by playing him starter minutes. He might be less a liability on defense with less minutes.

Mobley joined a team that was projected to win 25.5 games when it opened, lost their leading scorer, and is 10-6 when he plays. He’s a complete positive on the court. He’s the difference between winning and losing.

He’s the first or second best player on the team .

This isn’t close. It’s a matter of can Mobley stay healthy, and if so, they aren’t in the same conversation for those who value winning.

One is detracting from his team to be on the court. The other team is dependent on a rookie to win.

Only engaging with your blatant anti-Barnes agenda to correct the misinformation that the Raps were projected to win 37 games. Their O/U was 31.5.

You'd think Barnes was Trae Young with the way people are talking about his defense now, like he's the worst defensive player in the draft class. Such a blatant hit job. Yes his defense is slacking because he's taking a huge role on offense. We've seen him be an incredibly elite defender in the NBA already. He's tired, it is what it is. I'd rather him use his energy to keep pushing his boundaries on offense because he looks light years ahead of the rest of the rookies on that end in terms of his feel for the game, his decision making in the flow of the offense, and his ability to adjust his game really quickly, like he's done with his shot.

90% of the Raptors fans in this thread are saying Mobley is the frontrunner for ROY, including myself. It's just sad that some people have to pump him up by trying to diminish Barnes.

EDIT: I should say he looks light years ahead of the other rookies on offense with the exception of Franz, who is also showcasing a much more complete game on that end than people thought he would have. He's still been better than Franz offensively but the gap is much smaller than between Barnes and the rest of the rookies.

It certainly wasn’t 31.5. Might have opened at 35.5, and went to 36.5 now that I look, but I can promise it was never 31.5. I scope those out very closely every year and thought about a play. I wound have bet Toronto over 31.5.

I legit like Barnes. I liked all the kids. If I pulled against any kid it was green, but only because he was so insistent he should have been 1 and then didn’t look ready. I think he’s a good kid though.

You have a lot of fans. I truly don’t care about roty. I am far from convinced Mobley won’t have a couple more 5 game absences and it leans towards offense.

Mobley was already flexing his wrist again. Barnes much more NBA ready physically. I admit I might take a shot or troll a little as I see twitter after twitter feed of dudes from Toronto with ROTY in every comment on an article about Mobley and you just have so many fans, but I should leave that for there and not critique him unfairly here. He does look like he might be hitting a little wall or confused a little on defense. It’s been since Siakam came back.

He was my second favorite player coming into the draft. He’s actually the polar opposite of what I thought he was though. I thought he’d be a slightly better defender and would take until year 3 to ever score 15ppg.

[Bruin]

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