Political Roundtable Part XXXI

[dobrojim]

I wish I had a way to instill some joy and hope in the those on this thread who are depressed and see no positive news on the horizon. My limited study of history suggests the human spirit is quite resilient and in many cases, indomitable. Things look bleak at the moment but I'm confident we'll muddle through it.

In the long run I do think we could muddle through. Problem is how long it might take and
how much needless human suffering will happen first.

Hard to be optimistic when a large portion of one of our 2 major parties
is either willfully blind to or will happily celebrate the suffering of others.

When Golfy mocked a disable person, that should have told us all we needed to know.
But it didn't.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/10/the-cruelty-is-the-point/572104/

[pancakes3]

I wish I had a way to instill some joy and hope in the those on this thread who are depressed and see no positive news on the horizon. My limited study of history suggests the human spirit is quite resilient and in many cases, indomitable. Things look bleak at the moment but I'm confident we'll muddle through it.

I wish there was a way for you to understand my depression.

I don't think that when we each read the news story of 50 migrant workers dying from heat exhaustion in the back of a trailer, we have the same reaction. Or when yet another school is shot up, we have the same reaction. Or when we see Obergefel being threatened, the fear it instills in the LGBTQ+ community. Or when another person of color is murdered at a routine traffic stop. Or any number of horrific stories out there. I don't think we have the same reaction.

And yeah, maybe I should try and instill some joy and hope into my world view, but maybe you should try and understand why I'm depressed, and see how these policies are genuinely hurting and killing people who have since run out of time to instill joy and hope into their lives.

Like, that's the politics of it all. You are ok with the occasional mass murder of migrants who risk their lives because you... don't like immigration? for vague, unarticulated economic reasons? You are ok with the occasional mass murder of schoolchildren because... it's protected by the 2nd Amendment? Is the 2nd Amendment a good amendment? Are we safe from the government? Are you or I truly free from tyranny because we have access to guns?

It's not necessary to delve any deeper but I think you should know that I'm not depressed because my political party is losing. I'm depressed because of the consequences of the Republican Party winning. I'm depressed, because I keep reading these news stories about people dying, or being treated unequally, as a direct result of political decisions - and I fail to see the justification of these decisions that would warrant the suffering and pain that it causes. And I can't turn off that empathic part of my brain. And maybe you can't turn on that part of your brain, and maybe this lack of empathy is the root cause of our political disagreements. And THAT makes me sad.

Because on paper, I'm fairly well off, have good friends, good family, decent job, and none of the GOP's policies are likely to ever impact me directly. And yet, there is a part me that hurts enormously when I see what is happening to immigrants, and minorities, and innocent schoolchildren, and I can't pray that pain away. I can't just sleep at night without a gnawing feeling in the pit of my stomach. And i argue with people like you online, and I see how futile the discourse is and that makes me sadder still. And I have no answers, and then tonight, you just tell me to smile more, and it'll ok... and I'm just about as depressed as I've ever been re: the state of politics in this country.

[montestewart]

Holy chocolate cake, Batman!

Popper, I really appreciate your coming to this thread as very much a minority voice, with virtually no one (including me) agreeing with most of your stances.

In the last few pages I have seen some really fine posts from cakes, jim, dck, zonker, and others, written as responses to your posts, written in dialogue with you, and you have been holding down your end of the discussion virtually alone. Well done! SD20 did similar for years, but was unfortunately a little too bombastic to draw out such responses.

Other righties stop by, but usually only to troll. You and Nate are the only frequent visitors who actually try to state your case, and nothing against Nate “I am the law” Cartman but when he’s on his debate game, it can be a little intimidating. Your approach complements Nate’s forensics with a sincere curiosity that has elicited some very sincere and well-stated responses.

I have no idealism left in me (thank you, Wizards), but I sincerely believe that if people are regularly talking directly with each other, they are somewhat less likely to kill each other. I’ll call that a win. Thanks, Popper!

[pancakes3]

https://www.dispatch.com/story/news/2022/07/01/ohio-girl-10-among-patients-going-indiana-abortion/7788415001/


Can't sleep.

[popper]

I wish I had a way to instill some joy and hope in the those on this thread who are depressed and see no positive news on the horizon. My limited study of history suggests the human spirit is quite resilient and in many cases, indomitable. Things look bleak at the moment but I'm confident we'll muddle through it.

I wish there was a way for you to understand my depression.

I don't think that when we each read the news story of 50 migrant workers dying from heat exhaustion in the back of a trailer, we have the same reaction. Or when yet another school is shot up, we have the same reaction. Or when we see Obergefel being threatened, the fear it instills in the LGBTQ+ community. Or when another person of color is murdered at a routine traffic stop. Or any number of horrific stories out there. I don't think we have the same reaction.

And yeah, maybe I should try and instill some joy and hope into my world view, but maybe you should try and understand why I'm depressed, and see how these policies are genuinely hurting and killing people who have since run out of time to instill joy and hope into their lives.

Like, that's the politics of it all. You are ok with the occasional mass murder of migrants who risk their lives because you... don't like immigration? for vague, unarticulated economic reasons? You are ok with the occasional mass murder of schoolchildren because... it's protected by the 2nd Amendment? Is the 2nd Amendment a good amendment? Are we safe from the government? Are you or I truly free from tyranny because we have access to guns?

It's not necessary to delve any deeper but I think you should know that I'm not depressed because my political party is losing. I'm depressed because of the consequences of the Republican Party winning. I'm depressed, because I keep reading these news stories about people dying, or being treated unequally, as a direct result of political decisions - and I fail to see the justification of these decisions that would warrant the suffering and pain that it causes. And I can't turn off that empathic part of my brain. And maybe you can't turn on that part of your brain, and maybe this lack of empathy is the root cause of our political disagreements. And THAT makes me sad.

Because on paper, I'm fairly well off, have good friends, good family, decent job, and none of the GOP's policies are likely to ever impact me directly. And yet, there is a part me that hurts enormously when I see what is happening to immigrants, and minorities, and innocent schoolchildren, and I can't pray that pain away. I can't just sleep at night without a gnawing feeling in the pit of my stomach. And i argue with people like you online, and I see how futile the discourse is and that makes me sadder still. And I have no answers, and then tonight, you just tell me to smile more, and it'll ok... and I'm just about as depressed as I've ever been re: the state of politics in this country.

I think most of us descend from immigrants Pancakes. I grew up poor and I understand the economic desperation that many experience and how that motivates them to come here and try to eek out a better life. It breaks my heart to see the suffering around the world and here in our own country. I can relate to your depression as well. I went through my own period of depression two decades ago and barely made it out the other side. For me personally, it's healthier to stay as positive as I'm able to and maintain a hopeful outlook.

[popper]

BTW - depression can be a very dangerous threat and I urge anyone here to seek help if they begin to have prolonged feelings of hopelessness. I spent two years fighting it and was fortunate to get through it.

[Zonkerbl]

Not to spoil the mood here but, in the interest of transparency, here are my thoughts on spiritualism:

A spiritualist is someone who believes what they are told to believe, or want to believe based on what someone told them.

Which means they don't think for themselves.

Which means they are not sentient. And only sentient beings can have a soul.

So for me, it is absolutely imperative that I not simply accept things that people tell me, but to try as hard as I can to prove things to be true to myself.

Now I know friends, liberal friends even, who take "skepticism" too far, and believe conspiracy theories, but I think of that as "believing what you want to believe," which is the same problem. There is objective truth out there, and in that truth is the beauty of the universe, and being a sentient being that can appreciate that beauty is what we are here for.

[Zonkerbl]

Read on Twitter

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[dckingsfan]

Read on Twitter

Hope is not a plan. If you are a woman and live in a state that restricts your rights - move. If you have girls - move.

Be rooted in realism. Understand that you as a woman don't have equal rights in those states.

[dckingsfan]

And I have no answers, and then tonight, you just tell me to smile more, and it'll be ok... and I'm just about as depressed as I've ever been re: the state of politics in this country.

Be rooted in realism. This is not going to get better. It is going to get much worse.

The only thing that can get better is how you deal with the impending disaster and how you take care of yourself and your own.

Time to be selfish and just worry about yourself and your own. You could even think about it as a net positive - one less person clogging up what don't have in terms of a mental health system.

[Zonkerbl]

Poor people can't move. The forced birth movement has racism in its roots, it has been squarely aimed at punishing poor black women the entire time.

[nate33]

Poor people can't move. The forced birth movement has racism in its roots, it has been squarely aimed at punishing poor black women the entire time.

Yeah, all those racist conservatives hate blacks so much that they support a policy that will increase the birth rate of blacks. Diabolical!

[montestewart]

Poor people can't move. The forced birth movement has racism in its roots, it has been squarely aimed at punishing poor black women the entire time.

Yeah, all those racist conservatives hate blacks so much that they support a policy that will increase the birth rate of blacks. Diabolical!

The obvious counterpoint to that is that such policies may be believed to increase white birth rates more than they will increase black birth rates (I definitely think they would), and that the economy will always need a lower caste from which to draw people to change tires, bus tables, and what not. Under slavery, blacks were tolerated by racist whites as a necessary evil. Such “tolerance” is built into various strands of racist ideology, and with or without conscious intent, such desired ends may be built into these policy changes. If you reject CRT out of hand, I should probably stop there.

[Zonkerbl]

Poor people can't move. The forced birth movement has racism in its roots, it has been squarely aimed at punishing poor black women the entire time.

Yeah, all those racist conservatives hate blacks so much that they support a policy that will increase the birth rate of blacks. Diabolical!

It won't. Abortions will become more dangerous and more black women will die. No. of abortions will stay the same. And you know this.

[nate33]

Poor people can't move. The forced birth movement has racism in its roots, it has been squarely aimed at punishing poor black women the entire time.

Yeah, all those racist conservatives hate blacks so much that they support a policy that will increase the birth rate of blacks. Diabolical!

The obvious counterpoint to that is that such policies may be believed to increase white birth rates more than they will increase black birth rates (I definitely think they would), and that the economy will always need a lower caste from which to draw people to change tires, bus tables, and what not. Under slavery, blacks were tolerated by racist whites as a necessary evil. Such “tolerance” is built into various strands of racist ideology, and with or without conscious intent, such desired ends may be built into these policy changes. If you reject CRT out of hand, I should probably stop there.

Why would one think white birth rates would increase faster than blacks? Blacks have a WAY higher abortion rate than whites.

It's simply absurd to try and frame abortion as a racist policy. Hell, if conservatives were in favor of abortion, you would all be saying that, because blacks are more likely to have abortions, it was a racist, eugenic policy. Either way, you would frame conservatives as racist. It's all so tiresome.

[montestewart]

Yeah, all those racist conservatives hate blacks so much that they support a policy that will increase the birth rate of blacks. Diabolical!

The obvious counterpoint to that is that such policies may be believed to increase white birth rates more than they will increase black birth rates (I definitely think they would), and that the economy will always need a lower caste from which to draw people to change tires, bus tables, and what not. Under slavery, blacks were tolerated by racist whites as a necessary evil. Such “tolerance” is built into various strands of racist ideology, and with or without conscious intent, such desired ends may be built into these policy changes. If you reject CRT out of hand, I should probably stop there.

Why would one think white birth rates would increase faster than blacks? Blacks have a WAY higher abortion rate than whites.

It's simply absurd to try and frame abortion as a racist policy. Hell, if conservatives were in favor of abortion, you would all be saying that, because blacks are more likely to have abortions, it was a racist, eugenic policy. Either way, you would frame conservatives as racist. It's all so tiresome.

Policies frequently garner wide public support in defiance of logic or facts. Such confounding popular support seems particularly egregious in recent Trimes. Black women getting abortions at three times the rate of white women is a fact, one not necessarily incorporated in a racially motivated goal of promoting more white births, and a fact that hardly addresses the second point, regarding a low wage labor force.

I am happy to discuss further, and you typically do well buttressing your positions, but I doubt we will find much middle ground on these topics. From pregnant women all the way to SC justices, the subject of abortion seems clouded by emotions that firmly fix positions. But talking is better than not, so…

[Wizardspride]

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[Zonkerbl]

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[montestewart]

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Make up your mind, GOP, do you like child predators or not?

[dobrojim]

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No racism here. Move along.