Larry Bird Thinks LeBron James Is Potentially The Best Player In NBA History, Tells Haters To Stop Whining

[Sedale Threatt]

Larry Bird was a great player, top 5-7 all time. But he's the same guy who called MJ God and he dropped 63 on him. He's always been someone very loose with praises.

I look at it more like game recognizing game. As much sht as he talked and as hard as he competed, he wasn't a hater. If you could play he respected you. The better you were, the bigger the praise.

[NUMBERICA]

"If I wanna have fun, I'll choose LeBron. If I wanna win, I'd take Kobe"

Kobe did nothing without top talent next to him.

Lebron took a bunch of truck drivers to the NBA finals.

[afarmenian]

Tell me you are old enough to have watched Bird in the 80s. Im pretty positive you arent.

According to your post just above, you yourself started watching in the late 80s lol.

I’m 5 years younger than you and started watching around the same time, although I was very young and didn’t become a “real” fan until early 90s in my teenage years. I never watched Bird live during his prime years but I did rewatch a ton of his games on the old espn classic and youtubes. Now, I’m not sure what sort magical insight someone that watched him live has, that you and I don’t have, but I know I am very familiar with his game as a whole.

And I know its a different poster that said it, but judging from your post here AND posting history, I would think you have the same take (though i could be wrong).

Therealbig3 is so right and its not the first time I’ve seen this absurd take on this forum. Objectively speaking, there are probably ZERO things that Bird does better than Lebron on a basketball court, unless you count things like “better trash talker” and “better at telling you the move he’s gonna do and then doing it” like we keep seeing in all these old player tales.

But anything you can classify as a basketball skill or ability or whatever you want to call it and even when it comes to physical attributes or abilities, Lebron is pretty much better than Bird at everything.

Let me start off by the most obvious imo, is shooting. Lebron is a much better shooter than Bird from deep or anywhere else on the court. People love to say Larry is a top 3 shooter ever or close to there, but it’s simply not true. Lebron can consistently hit shots with a difficulty level that Bird never even attempted or probably never even practiced. Yes they didn’t do that back then and that’s precisely the point. Lebron uses the midrange less than players back then did, but is easily as efficient as Bird while being much better the deeper you get.

Lebron is a better overall scorer and playmaker, ball handler, better at driving and finishing, driving and passing out, better left hand finishing, better at left hand passing. Keep in mind that for the last two, Bird was one of few players in those years that could even do this, now half the league can and a lot are better than the ones then.

Lebron is much more athletic than Bird, even though people love to keep reminding us that Bird was “super” athletic, which he for sure was, but its not comparable to freaks like Lebron, Wilt or MJ.

Lebron is a better defender accross the board, he handles the much better perimeter offensive players of today better than even Bird could, and I don’t doubt Bird would be quite good in this as well. I have no doubt he’s a better post up defender as well although this is kinda moot for him. He’s better shotblocker and i doubt he’s worse than Bird at steals off the dribble or passing lanes, but who knows, maybe this goes to Bird.

How someone who presumably knows both these players very well, can sit there and say that Bird or “prime” Bird is better than Lebron shows an incredible lack of knowledge and understanding about the sport OR shows their bias and what they actually mean is “I personally like Bird more”.

The other comparison that I keep hearing to raise Bird above a guy like Lebron is about attitude or mentality or will to win or whatever else you want to call this. Mostly how Lebron has a “loser” mindset and is not a “winner” like guys back then which is such a joke. Lebron is a winner through and through. The idea that a guy who won 4 championships in a much more talented era with 10 more teams to compete against is less of a winner than a guy who won 3 championship on one of the 2 stacked teams in a league of 20 teams is so beyond stupid. The trash talking and ego that Bird had are real things, and Lebron is very much NOT like that but this guy is always trying to win but has faced much better competition than teams in the 80s or 90s.

There’s a massive denial about how a very young pro league has become better and better in its short lifespan because people don’t want the heroes they grew up watching to be forgotten, so instead they make up stuff about them and make it seem like they were larger than life. But its so wrong to do that imo, instead you should recognize that without Wilt/Russell, Kareem/Oscar, Magic/Bird and of course MJ, we have no Lebron/Durant. Thats the best part of their legacy, and it should be obvious that a pro league that was barely 30-40 years old at the time, has improved tremendously in the 30-40 years after as well… BECAUSE OF THEM.

Im not going to post paragraphs of stuff like you but i will say the following…..when you said James is a better shooter than Larry Bird i couldnt help but laugh. In no way shape or form is James a better shooter from mid range, 3 point line, or free throw line than Larry Bird. Thats a horrible take. Bird, imo, was also a better passer than James. He had insane court vision and an uncanny knack for passing the ball in tight spaces. Bird was not an overall better basketball player than James, but yes, Bird was better than James at a few things. Also, if im a GM im picking Bird over James. Why? Cause Bird isnt leaving when the going gets tough. Agree…disagree….i really dont care. Its my opinion.

I have to laugh at someone that says these things with such conviction. Assuming you are watching the same things I am. The reality is Larry Bird hit his jumpers with practically no defensive resistance. It's embarrassing to watch film see these all time great players get 5 feet of space and no closeouts and try to compare to modern basketball. It's no contest. Except free throws. Gotta give Bird that.

Watch this game and see how rough it is...it's not even evolved enough to call it real basketball at this point. Just a bunch of big dudes running around forcing drives and throwing up bricks when they are
Wide open


https://youtu.be/TdHRTzbllEg?si=D7bg57gQXAWjsu-w

[MavsDirk41]

According to your post just above, you yourself started watching in the late 80s lol.

I’m 5 years younger than you and started watching around the same time, although I was very young and didn’t become a “real” fan until early 90s in my teenage years. I never watched Bird live during his prime years but I did rewatch a ton of his games on the old espn classic and youtubes. Now, I’m not sure what sort magical insight someone that watched him live has, that you and I don’t have, but I know I am very familiar with his game as a whole.

And I know its a different poster that said it, but judging from your post here AND posting history, I would think you have the same take (though i could be wrong).

Therealbig3 is so right and its not the first time I’ve seen this absurd take on this forum. Objectively speaking, there are probably ZERO things that Bird does better than Lebron on a basketball court, unless you count things like “better trash talker” and “better at telling you the move he’s gonna do and then doing it” like we keep seeing in all these old player tales.

But anything you can classify as a basketball skill or ability or whatever you want to call it and even when it comes to physical attributes or abilities, Lebron is pretty much better than Bird at everything.

Let me start off by the most obvious imo, is shooting. Lebron is a much better shooter than Bird from deep or anywhere else on the court. People love to say Larry is a top 3 shooter ever or close to there, but it’s simply not true. Lebron can consistently hit shots with a difficulty level that Bird never even attempted or probably never even practiced. Yes they didn’t do that back then and that’s precisely the point. Lebron uses the midrange less than players back then did, but is easily as efficient as Bird while being much better the deeper you get.

Lebron is a better overall scorer and playmaker, ball handler, better at driving and finishing, driving and passing out, better left hand finishing, better at left hand passing. Keep in mind that for the last two, Bird was one of few players in those years that could even do this, now half the league can and a lot are better than the ones then.

Lebron is much more athletic than Bird, even though people love to keep reminding us that Bird was “super” athletic, which he for sure was, but its not comparable to freaks like Lebron, Wilt or MJ.

Lebron is a better defender accross the board, he handles the much better perimeter offensive players of today better than even Bird could, and I don’t doubt Bird would be quite good in this as well. I have no doubt he’s a better post up defender as well although this is kinda moot for him. He’s better shotblocker and i doubt he’s worse than Bird at steals off the dribble or passing lanes, but who knows, maybe this goes to Bird.

How someone who presumably knows both these players very well, can sit there and say that Bird or “prime” Bird is better than Lebron shows an incredible lack of knowledge and understanding about the sport OR shows their bias and what they actually mean is “I personally like Bird more”.

The other comparison that I keep hearing to raise Bird above a guy like Lebron is about attitude or mentality or will to win or whatever else you want to call this. Mostly how Lebron has a “loser” mindset and is not a “winner” like guys back then which is such a joke. Lebron is a winner through and through. The idea that a guy who won 4 championships in a much more talented era with 10 more teams to compete against is less of a winner than a guy who won 3 championship on one of the 2 stacked teams in a league of 20 teams is so beyond stupid. The trash talking and ego that Bird had are real things, and Lebron is very much NOT like that but this guy is always trying to win but has faced much better competition than teams in the 80s or 90s.

There’s a massive denial about how a very young pro league has become better and better in its short lifespan because people don’t want the heroes they grew up watching to be forgotten, so instead they make up stuff about them and make it seem like they were larger than life. But its so wrong to do that imo, instead you should recognize that without Wilt/Russell, Kareem/Oscar, Magic/Bird and of course MJ, we have no Lebron/Durant. Thats the best part of their legacy, and it should be obvious that a pro league that was barely 30-40 years old at the time, has improved tremendously in the 30-40 years after as well… BECAUSE OF THEM.

Im not going to post paragraphs of stuff like you but i will say the following…..when you said James is a better shooter than Larry Bird i couldnt help but laugh. In no way shape or form is James a better shooter from mid range, 3 point line, or free throw line than Larry Bird. Thats a horrible take. Bird, imo, was also a better passer than James. He had insane court vision and an uncanny knack for passing the ball in tight spaces. Bird was not an overall better basketball player than James, but yes, Bird was better than James at a few things. Also, if im a GM im picking Bird over James. Why? Cause Bird isnt leaving when the going gets tough. Agree…disagree….i really dont care. Its my opinion.

I have to laugh at someone that says these things with such conviction. Assuming you are watching the same things I am. The reality is Larry Bird hit his jumpers with practically no defensive resistance. It's embarrassing to watch film see these all time great players get 5 feet of space and no closeouts and try to compare to modern basketball. It's no contest. Except free throws. Gotta give Bird that.

So your expert opinion is that James is a better shooter than Bird was? Im talking 10 feet and out… Bird averaged 1.9 3 point attempts per game in his career. His career field goal pct was .50% and he wasnt getting alot of dunks per game. He was a great shooter. And defensive resistance? Today? When everybody is spaced out, centers are smaller, and the lane is wide open? Oh yea pal there is some great defense being played in todays nba. You notice these 145-150 point games?

[reddyplayerone]

"If I wanna have fun, I'll choose LeBron. If I wanna win, I'd take Kobe"

Kobe did nothing without top talent next to him.

Lebron took a bunch of truck drivers to the NBA finals.

This is one of the most tired narratives in sports.

LeBron never won anything without top talent next to him either.

Pretty much none of the all time great players won without top tier talent to play with. This should not be a revelatory or particularly controversial thing to say.

It's still a team game, despite fans insistence on fetishizing individualism.

I have to laugh at someone that says these things with such conviction. Assuming you are watching the same things I am. The reality is Larry Bird hit his jumpers with practically no defensive resistance. It's embarrassing to see these all time great players get 5 feet of space and no closeouts and try to compare to modern basketball. It's no contest. Except free throw. Gotta give Bird that.

Wow that's really nice of all those players in the 80's, letting Larry just hit open jumpers on them unabated like that.

I guess these pics from simply googling "Larry bird jumpshot" are some deepfake AI or something?:

Spoiler:

[MavsDirk41]

According to your post just above, you yourself started watching in the late 80s lol.

I’m 5 years younger than you and started watching around the same time, although I was very young and didn’t become a “real” fan until early 90s in my teenage years. I never watched Bird live during his prime years but I did rewatch a ton of his games on the old espn classic and youtubes. Now, I’m not sure what sort magical insight someone that watched him live has, that you and I don’t have, but I know I am very familiar with his game as a whole.

And I know its a different poster that said it, but judging from your post here AND posting history, I would think you have the same take (though i could be wrong).

Therealbig3 is so right and its not the first time I’ve seen this absurd take on this forum. Objectively speaking, there are probably ZERO things that Bird does better than Lebron on a basketball court, unless you count things like “better trash talker” and “better at telling you the move he’s gonna do and then doing it” like we keep seeing in all these old player tales.

But anything you can classify as a basketball skill or ability or whatever you want to call it and even when it comes to physical attributes or abilities, Lebron is pretty much better than Bird at everything.

Let me start off by the most obvious imo, is shooting. Lebron is a much better shooter than Bird from deep or anywhere else on the court. People love to say Larry is a top 3 shooter ever or close to there, but it’s simply not true. Lebron can consistently hit shots with a difficulty level that Bird never even attempted or probably never even practiced. Yes they didn’t do that back then and that’s precisely the point. Lebron uses the midrange less than players back then did, but is easily as efficient as Bird while being much better the deeper you get.

Lebron is a better overall scorer and playmaker, ball handler, better at driving and finishing, driving and passing out, better left hand finishing, better at left hand passing. Keep in mind that for the last two, Bird was one of few players in those years that could even do this, now half the league can and a lot are better than the ones then.

Lebron is much more athletic than Bird, even though people love to keep reminding us that Bird was “super” athletic, which he for sure was, but its not comparable to freaks like Lebron, Wilt or MJ.

Lebron is a better defender accross the board, he handles the much better perimeter offensive players of today better than even Bird could, and I don’t doubt Bird would be quite good in this as well. I have no doubt he’s a better post up defender as well although this is kinda moot for him. He’s better shotblocker and i doubt he’s worse than Bird at steals off the dribble or passing lanes, but who knows, maybe this goes to Bird.

How someone who presumably knows both these players very well, can sit there and say that Bird or “prime” Bird is better than Lebron shows an incredible lack of knowledge and understanding about the sport OR shows their bias and what they actually mean is “I personally like Bird more”.

The other comparison that I keep hearing to raise Bird above a guy like Lebron is about attitude or mentality or will to win or whatever else you want to call this. Mostly how Lebron has a “loser” mindset and is not a “winner” like guys back then which is such a joke. Lebron is a winner through and through. The idea that a guy who won 4 championships in a much more talented era with 10 more teams to compete against is less of a winner than a guy who won 3 championship on one of the 2 stacked teams in a league of 20 teams is so beyond stupid. The trash talking and ego that Bird had are real things, and Lebron is very much NOT like that but this guy is always trying to win but has faced much better competition than teams in the 80s or 90s.

There’s a massive denial about how a very young pro league has become better and better in its short lifespan because people don’t want the heroes they grew up watching to be forgotten, so instead they make up stuff about them and make it seem like they were larger than life. But its so wrong to do that imo, instead you should recognize that without Wilt/Russell, Kareem/Oscar, Magic/Bird and of course MJ, we have no Lebron/Durant. Thats the best part of their legacy, and it should be obvious that a pro league that was barely 30-40 years old at the time, has improved tremendously in the 30-40 years after as well… BECAUSE OF THEM.

Im not going to post paragraphs of stuff like you but i will say the following…..when you said James is a better shooter than Larry Bird i couldnt help but laugh. In no way shape or form is James a better shooter from mid range, 3 point line, or free throw line than Larry Bird. Thats a horrible take. Bird, imo, was also a better passer than James. He had insane court vision and an uncanny knack for passing the ball in tight spaces. Bird was not an overall better basketball player than James, but yes, Bird was better than James at a few things. Also, if im a GM im picking Bird over James. Why? Cause Bird isnt leaving when the going gets tough. Agree…disagree….i really dont care. Its my opinion.

I have to laugh at someone that says these things with such conviction. Assuming you are watching the same things I am. The reality is Larry Bird hit his jumpers with practically no defensive resistance. It's embarrassing to watch film see these all time great players get 5 feet of space and no closeouts and try to compare to modern basketball. It's no contest. Except free throws. Gotta give Bird that.

Watch this game and see how rough it is...it's not even evolved enough to call it real basketball at this point. Just a bunch of big dudes running around forcing drives and throwing up bricks when they are
Wide open


https://youtu.be/TdHRTzbllEg?si=D7bg57gQXAWjsu-w

Do me a favor…watch Lukas 70 point game. The guy was literally shooting uncontested layups throughout the game.

[MavsDirk41]

"If I wanna have fun, I'll choose LeBron. If I wanna win, I'd take Kobe"

Kobe did nothing without top talent next to him.

Lebron took a bunch of truck drivers to the NBA finals.

Truck drivers:

Wade
Bosh
Love
Irving
Davis

Terrible talent

[Iwasawitness]

So first and foremost...

Thanks to the user who PM'd me and told me this guy replied to me. If he knew what he was doing, I would have known about it already, but as such, I had no clue up until now, so thanks for that.

As for you SportsGuru, before I start, a couple things.

One, if you're going to respond to anyone's posts, make sure you quote them properly. Just putting quote isn't going to cut it. You need to paste the user into the quote as well, like this:

[ quote = "SportsGuru08" ] (get rid of the spaces)

When you do it that way, I get notified that you responded.

Second, kudos to you for being probably the first person to actually nut up and respond in full to my long winded posts. Normally people just whine about how long my posts are and use it as an excuse not to engage. This is kind of refreshing to see, so good on you. Alright, time for the post itself...

Why it was the case is irrelevant. The fact is he had plenty of help and the opponent was a team of geriatrics. 2011 is the ultimate answer to every Bron Stan's two favorite excuses; "doesn't have enough help/teammates are bums" and "opponent is too good/superteam"

No, it's not irrelevant. You are the one who brought up how good LeBron's teammates played, so it is absolutely relevant to point out that they got no defensive attention at all. If you didn't bring that up, then yeah, it would be irrelevant. But because you went that route, it needed to be said. No one here is making excuses, again, this comes back to having a brain and using it. Blindly ignoring that and trying to use how good his teammates played against him knowing that fact is downright illogical. Some of us prefer to live in the real world where facts and logic exist.

Speaking of logic, what do you mean he had plenty of help? Outside of Wade and Bosh, he had basically no one. Joel Anthony was their starting center for crying out loud. They had no depth, they had no PG rotation, they had center rotation. It was just three all stars and a bunch of scrubs. It's hilarious that you're trying to downplay the Dallas Mavericks, even though they were a much better team across the board compared to Miami.

Now let me be clear. Did LeBron play great in that series? No. Could he have been better? Yes. Do I think he deserves a pass for how he played in this series? **** no. But again, YOU brought up how his teammates played into this. If they all received equal defensive attention, they would not have outplayed LeBron, and he most likely would have had a very different performance as a whole had that not been the case. If you would have just said "LeBron played like **** in that series", I would have just probably agreed with you and either publicly acknowledge that or leave that point alone and move on.

The only reason that defensive scheme worked is because of how pathetic LeBron's jumpshot has always been. That's entirely LeBron's fault. So yes, you are making excuses for him.

And once again, no I'm not. And why would I be? No one's denying that LeBron was awful in that series. That was never the point. The point I've always made is that LeBron didn't choke in that series, he got shut down by the Dallas defense. The one thing you correctly stated is that LeBron's lack of a jumper in that series did hinder him. That is in fact his fault. There are other reasons (lack of spacing from the poor fit for example), but the lack of jumper is 100% on him for not working on it.

The Bulls were a long-running dynasty. The Mavericks were a one-year fluke whose recent playoff history had been pathetic to say the least; two first round exits, both of which came as Top 2 seeds. Dirk was a perennial choker until LeBron somehow managed to outchoke him.

A long running dynasty? Their last championship win was three years ago. The team they had in 96 was very different from the one they had in 93, and they were fresh off of being bounced out of the second round by the Orlando Magic. The point I'm trying to make is that the age of the team is not relevant at all. It's usually the more experienced and aged teams anyways that are able to make deep runs in the postseason to begin with.

Yes, Kobe was past his prime. Anyone who actually watched the 2011 playoffs could see he wasn't the same.

Stop trying to inflate the 2011 Mavericks to boost LeBron's legacy.

No one's trying to inflate anything. You called the 2011 Mavericks a team filled with geriatrics. You are the one trying to downplay the Mavericks as much as you possibly can because you can't accept the fact that they were in fact a great team.

Yes they were babies. They were only in the WCF because the Spurs laid an egg and they faced an 8 seed in the 2nd round.

So wait, this is a case of the Spurs laying an egg and NOT the 2011 Memphis Grizzlies just being a really great team? The double standards in your logic is insane.

Bron's 48 point performance came against the post-Ben Wallace Pistons. A team that would have only qualified as the 4th seed in the Western Conference. Bron didn't face anyone notable in the East that year, which is why Cleveland made it that far to begin with.

Ben Wallace was barely going to make a difference in that series, especially with how LeBron played. Multiple players have already stated that Flip Saunders was the problem with that team, not Ben Wallace not being there, who was already in a decline and wasn't the same player that he was in previous years.

No, it's called "making excuses" which is exactly what you're doing here; using simplistic box score analysis to excuse LeBron's poor performance.

And yes, I do mean "poor performance." Over 30% of his points came wheb trailing by 15 or more PPG. So excluding his stat-padding points, he wasn't any better than he was in 2011.

Did you really just accuse me of using simplistic box score analysis, and then literally go on to do the exact same thing?

Let me fill you in on something. That stat padding claim is something I saw all the time on reddit. It's a very easy point to shoot down and there's no validity to it whatsoever. But because I don't want to commit plagiarism, I'm just going to copy and paste it here so you can read yourself why this is a stupid take (and because I don't feel like doing the research):

I can't help but think that people who claim LeBron stat padded in the 2014 Finals didn't actually watch said Finals. It's made pretty clear when people point out the point deficit when he was scoring, but they don't bother taking into account when he actually scored and what the in-game situation was.

Some data:

LeBron averaged 1.3 PPG in the fourth quarter of the last three games in that series where the big blowouts occurred. Yeah, 1.3 PPG. That alone pretty much kills the stat padding narrative. Now keep in mind, LeBron averaged 28.2 PPG in that series, which means if you take away his 1.3 PPG, we come out of this with 26.9 PPG. I'm not going to adjust the shooting percentages because the point remains clear: LeBron very clearly had elite production in this series.

Now let's take this one step further. Let's go back through the third quarters then, where the deficits were probably pretty big. First, it needs to be said: no points that you score in the third quarter of an NBA Finals game is stat padding, regardless of how big of a difference in score. Your goal is to cut down the lead, that's it. So anyone who tries to claim it's still stat padding are talking out of their asses. With that said, game three was without question the worst game of the series for LeBron, who only had 22 points and scored a grand total of two points in the third quarter and a grand total of four in the fourth quarter. We won't count that because it doesn't matter, he was below his series average.

Game four and five is where things get interesting.

In game four, LeBron had 17 points in the third quarter of this game. Now just to give you an idea of how unceremoniously bad the Heat were outside of James (or how great the Spurs were, take your pick), despite him scoring 17 points, the lead from the start of the quarter for San Antonio to the end grew from 19 to 24. Yeah, a five point swing in SA's favor despite LeBron having a great quarter. Oh and btw, LeBron didn't score at all in the fourth quarter of this game. Not stat padding. And then there's game 5, where LeBron had seven points in the third quarter, and by the end of said quarter, the lead was 19 points. But what's interesting here is that San Antonio only had an eight point lead to start the half, which means SA had an 11 point swing in their favor. Now in this case, LeBron obviously did not have a great quarter. But it once again makes me question: where is the stat padding and when did it happen? He only had four points in the fourth quarter of this game. He had 31 points in this game, which means that he had 20 points going into the half. You're telling me 27 of his points were from stat padding?? You're telling me that was crucial to LeBron getting the 28 PPG mark?

What I also find funny about this is that LeBron wasn't going to win with his haters in either scenario here. If he didn't shoot at all and just accepted his fate, people would have accused him of quitting again and giving up, but because in this situation he actually put in the effort to try to win when it wasn't too late yet, people just accuse him of stat padding because they're too lazy to look at anything except for the score.

LeBron was far from perfect and made a lot of mistakes, he got shut down by Leonard, but he most definitely did not stat pad. Anyone who says this, ignore them. They don't know what they're talking about.

I should take this guys advice and ignore you, but I'll continue.

You're also ignoring his piss awful defense on a baby Kawhi Leonard, who averaged 23 on 70% shooting in Games 3-5.

Again with the baby nonsense. Leonard had already been in the league for three years, was in the playoffs in every single one, and was a starter in the NBA Finals last year. His age was irrelevant: he was already battle tested and ready for this moment.

Also, thanks for even more proof that you didn't watch the series.

No they don't. Not nearly to the same degree as LeBron. Because almost nobody has him as the GOAT, in the Top 3, Top 5, or even Top 10.

Nobody has him as a GOAT candidate because he doesn't deserve to be one. He's not close to the player LeBron was, nor does he have the same accolades. But that hasn't stopped people from hailing him as one of the all time greats in the sport. Almost no one in their right minds points a finger at West and mentions his finals failures, because they know he was delt a bad hand. LeBron on the other hand is constantly criticized for his 4-6 record, even though that's a much better finals record than West and one I'm sure Jerry would loved to have had. So uh, yeah, West is definitely given far more passes.

LeBron has two Finals losses, one of them a gentleman's sweep, with a teammate averaging over 25 PPG.

You really brought up the one against the 2017 Warriors, a series where he averaged a triple double and it was against arguably the greatest team of all time

Oh and by the way, great job on once again doing the exact thing you just got done criticizing me of.

Actually the comparison does cut it because they both have a bunch of Finals losses, except West's were more competitive. But West doesn't get one-tenth as many passes for failure as LeBron does.

I've already addressed why this is a stupid point. It's one thing to try to act like LeBron deserves criticism for losing a finals series he is clearly not at fault for losing. But it's another thing to try to claim that he gets cut more slack for losing in his than Jerry West does. That's an idiotic take and you're lucky I'm even dignifying it with a response. Stop with the trolling already, no one's buying it.

Zero Top 10 players. Their core Big 3 were all on the wrong side of 30 and Kawhi was still a role player. Enough of this artificial inflation of LeBron's legacy.

This is the team LeBron lost by a record margin to. Any other player would be immediately and unconditionally forever removed from the GOAT discussion with that and 2011 on their roster resumes. Only LeBron gets such passes for failure.

This quote right here is why you do not deserve to be taken seriously as a poster. You are judging the 2014 Spurs greatness by whether or not they had any top ten players on their team. That's a ridiculous take, not to mention it's incorrect. Tim Duncan was by all accounts a top ten player still in 2014. And while we're at it, let's talk some more about that team shall we?

No one on that entire team averaged more than 30 minutes a game. Despite this, they won 62 games in one of the most stacked western conferences in NBA history. After their seven game series with Dallas in the first round, they blew out the next two teams they went up against (yeah, Miami wasn't the only victim). Again, also keep in mind how many injuries they had throughout the season and the fact that they still had 62 wins. They are one of, if not the deepest team of all time. No team in history demonstrated the combination of passing and shooting that they did. They were off the charts and revolutionized the game, and inspired a lot of the offenses that we see being played today. They were also a ridiculously great defensive team. People love to point out the age of their big three, well here's their big three with per36 stats.

Duncan: 19/12 with 2.3 BPG.
Parker: 20/7
Ginobli: 19/5/7, and before you try to claim "oh but he was the sixth man, those stats are inflated", they're right in line with what he normally did as the sixth man when compared to even his prime years.

So don't try to pretend their big three was out of their prime and not affective players anymore. All three were still very clearly elite players, but on top of that they had arguably the best 3/D player in the league in Danny Green, the Finals MVP in Leonard who shut down LeBron and averaged 23 PPG in that series, and one of the best benches of all time (and I mean of ALL time).

In other words, this was the best team Duncan ever played on. But I know you aren't smart enough to argue otherwise.

The 2011 Mavericks, 2004 Pistons and 1995 Rockets were all far bigger underdogs than the 2016 Cavaliers. The Warriors were down 3-1 in the previous series to a Thunder team with no shooting or depth. They weren't that good regardless of their record.

Jesus.

Okay for starters, what are you basing your claim that those teams were bigger underdogs on? Betting odds are your best bet when it comes to that.

2016 NBA Finals: Warriors -210 favorites to win, Cavaliers +162
2011 NBA Finals: Miami Heat -180 favorites to win, Mavericks +160

From this, we can very clearly see that the Warriors were more heavily favored to win than Miami was, and that the Cavaliers were ever so slightly less favored than Dallas. So uh, nice try but you are very clearly wrong about this one. But hey, what about the other teams, right? Well, you are very much correct about the 2004 Pistons, as the Lakers were -700 favorites to win that series, implying that Detroit was a historic underdog going into that series. But the thing is, we're talking about how impressive this is for LeBron, not teams as a whole. And the 2004 Lakers, no matter how you want to spin it, were not on the same level as the 2016 Warriors, who are still a historically great team despite the loss, more on that in a moment.

But the 95 Rockets is where I am going to take this opportunity to call out your blatant hypocrisy. See, Rockets were also not favored in that series, but let me ask you a question: are you going to make the same excuse for Shaq that you're making for Durant, Westbrook and Harden? After all, Shaq was just a "baby" in this series, having only been in the league for three years up to this point. According to YOUR logic, Shaq was far too young for this to be used against him, so it shouldn't count, right? Can't wait to see you try to spin your way out of that one.

Oh and by the way, the 2016 Warriors are an all time great team. Yeah, they were down 3-1 to the only team in the entire league that could actually matchup properly against them and who were fresh off of beating another all time great team in the Spurs (the second best team Duncan ever played on, more on that later). But guess what? They still won the series. So it makes no difference that they were down 3-1. The fact that they came back and took the series away from OKC says everything that needs to be said about why they were an all time great team in the first place.

None of Jordan's playoff eliminations are nearly at the level of failure as LeBron in 2011.

That's fine, none of Jordan's title wins were as impressive as LeBron in 2016 or 2013.

They also didn't have to travel and deal with hostile crowds on the road. The players complaining about how "trying and tough" it was are doing just that; complaining. They were staying at a Disney resort, not some Russian gulag or a sweat shop in China.

Stop acting as if practicing when nobody else can isn't a benefit. You're trying WAY too hard to make it seem like the Lakers weren't gift-wrapped every benefit.

They WEREN'T gift-wrapped every benefit. You need to stop pretending they were.

Nobody's claiming it isn't a championship. Only one that doesn't do anything for anyone's legacy. And given LeBron's track record in LA outside that one season, it's becoming clear the bubble was the only reason they won it that year.

So in other words, yeah, you're claiming it isn't a championship. This championship absolutely does something for LeBron's legacy. For one thing, it proved he didn't need a big three to win. It proved he could win in the Western Conference. It proved at that point that he was still an MVP caliber player. It's really idiotic to suggest that the bubble is why they won that year, especially when you consider the fact that they had the best record in the league going into said bubble. And since you want to keep mentioning those other seasons...

1st season: On pace to make playoffs until injuries.
3rd season: Made playoffs and on pace to beat the Suns who made the finals until injuries ruined that (and in fact injuries throughout the season led to their low seeding).
4th season: Pushed for the idiotic Westbrook trade, that one's on LeBron.
5th season: Made the WCF.

So stop with this idiotic narrative. I know you like to pretend that we aren't capable of critical thinking, maybe because this line of thinking that you demonstrate is shared with people who don't do such, but it's not going to work on us.

Yes it is. Because Kareem had the total points record for both the regular season and playoffs for 13 years, yet he was never the consensus GOAT during that whole time frame.

HUH? Kareem absolutely was considered a GOAT during that timeframe. The **** kind of nonsense is this?

People didn't start inflating the importance of total points until LeBron started getting close. And the only reason they inflated it so much is because his Finals resume is so pathetic that they needed a new talking point to inflate his legacy.

At this point you're just making **** up to try to satisfy your brain dead agenda. Either give me valid points that are based on actual history or move on to someone who didn't follow basketball and is stupid enough to believe the things you're saying. You'll have far better luck with them.

Which brings up another valid point; the total points record doesn't change the fact that he's a six time Finals loser. The only thing separating Bron from West is that West doesn't have all these empty longevity stats.

And LeBron being a six time finals loser doesn't mean he's not the GOAT. Team accomplishments are just that, team accomplishments, especially when applied with context.

First off, no he really didn't.

Yeah, he did. Stop being delusional.

Second off, LeBron played his entire prime in the Leastern Conference, which is why he made the Finals as many times as he did.

Why do you contradict everything you say so much? Is it really this hard for you to follow along with the things you say?

If LeBron only made the finals as many times as he did because of the conferences he played in, and yet Jerry West made the finals JUST as many times, had far more competitive finals series AND played in a tougher conference... then that pretty obviously means that West had better teams surrounding him. This really isn't that hard of a concept to understand and yet for some reason it's going right over your head.

Yeah, SURE you haven't. Which is why you sound exactly like every single paid shill and Klutch Sports media plant.

At this point, I'm starting to believe YOU'RE the one who gets all his talking points from media shills. You don't use context, you don't use facts, you use terrible talking points from skip bayless that were debunked a long time ago, it sounds to me like you aren't capable of coming up with an original thought. Either way, I don't watch those morons on ESPN, I have better things to do with my time.

I sure do hope that you can comeback with something more impressive than what you have given me here. I doubt it but here's to hoping.

[afarmenian]

Im not going to post paragraphs of stuff like you but i will say the following…..when you said James is a better shooter than Larry Bird i couldnt help but laugh. In no way shape or form is James a better shooter from mid range, 3 point line, or free throw line than Larry Bird. Thats a horrible take. Bird, imo, was also a better passer than James. He had insane court vision and an uncanny knack for passing the ball in tight spaces. Bird was not an overall better basketball player than James, but yes, Bird was better than James at a few things. Also, if im a GM im picking Bird over James. Why? Cause Bird isnt leaving when the going gets tough. Agree…disagree….i really dont care. Its my opinion.

I have to laugh at someone that says these things with such conviction. Assuming you are watching the same things I am. The reality is Larry Bird hit his jumpers with practically no defensive resistance. It's embarrassing to watch film see these all time great players get 5 feet of space and no closeouts and try to compare to modern basketball. It's no contest. Except free throws. Gotta give Bird that.

So your expert opinion is that James is a better shooter than Bird was? Im talking 10 feet and out… Bird averaged 1.9 3 point attempts per game in his career. His career field goal pct was .50% and he wasnt getting alot of dunks per game. He was a great shooter. And defensive resistance? Today? When everybody is spaced out, centers are smaller, and the lane is wide open? Oh yea pal there is some great defense being played in todays nba. You notice these 145-150 point games?

I wouldn't even say better as has better form and fundamentals (probably why lebrons free thows are mediocre bad fundamentals)

as far as getting his shot off in the game and the difficulty factor along with the lack of contested shots....yes worse than lebron. Larry's release was sloowww. He wouldn't even be able to get his shot off today so whats it matter. I don't know....maybe he adjusts but thats a massive assumption. The fact is he had minimal resistance on jump shots that's something you watch a minimal amount of 80s ball and it's the reality.

The film don't lie. They were sagging off everyone in that era barely defended the 3 point line and long jumpers and his percentages still weren't anything special.

[afarmenian]

Im not going to post paragraphs of stuff like you but i will say the following…..when you said James is a better shooter than Larry Bird i couldnt help but laugh. In no way shape or form is James a better shooter from mid range, 3 point line, or free throw line than Larry Bird. Thats a horrible take. Bird, imo, was also a better passer than James. He had insane court vision and an uncanny knack for passing the ball in tight spaces. Bird was not an overall better basketball player than James, but yes, Bird was better than James at a few things. Also, if im a GM im picking Bird over James. Why? Cause Bird isnt leaving when the going gets tough. Agree…disagree….i really dont care. Its my opinion.

I have to laugh at someone that says these things with such conviction. Assuming you are watching the same things I am. The reality is Larry Bird hit his jumpers with practically no defensive resistance. It's embarrassing to watch film see these all time great players get 5 feet of space and no closeouts and try to compare to modern basketball. It's no contest. Except free throws. Gotta give Bird that.

Watch this game and see how rough it is...it's not even evolved enough to call it real basketball at this point. Just a bunch of big dudes running around forcing drives and throwing up bricks when they are
Wide open


https://youtu.be/TdHRTzbllEg?si=D7bg57gQXAWjsu-w

Do me a favor…watch Lukas 70 point game. The guy was literally shooting uncontested layups throughout the game.

I did. Yeah it was pretty Trash defense thats fair and yet still better than like 95 percent of the 80s to mid 90s garbage basketball. I mean at least they were putting a hand up. They weren't even contesting shots in the finals just double teaming post for no reason and lazy recovers

[MavsDirk41]

I have to laugh at someone that says these things with such conviction. Assuming you are watching the same things I am. The reality is Larry Bird hit his jumpers with practically no defensive resistance. It's embarrassing to watch film see these all time great players get 5 feet of space and no closeouts and try to compare to modern basketball. It's no contest. Except free throws. Gotta give Bird that.

So your expert opinion is that James is a better shooter than Bird was? Im talking 10 feet and out… Bird averaged 1.9 3 point attempts per game in his career. His career field goal pct was .50% and he wasnt getting alot of dunks per game. He was a great shooter. And defensive resistance? Today? When everybody is spaced out, centers are smaller, and the lane is wide open? Oh yea pal there is some great defense being played in todays nba. You notice these 145-150 point games?

I wouldn't even say better as has better form and fundamentals (probably why lebrons free thows are mediocre bad fundamentals)

as far as getting his shot off in the game and difficult and factoring in contested shots....yes worse than lebron. Larry's release was sloowww. He wouldn't even be able to get his shot off today so whats it matter. I don't know....maybe he adjusts but yhats a massive assumption.

The film don't lie. They were sagging off everyone in that era barely defended the 3 point line and long jumpers and his percentages still weren't anything special.

I watched a game last week. For 5 straight minutes, both teams ran up and down the court exchanging 3 point shots…..but neither team was making any of them. Finally Cam Payne made one!!!! Point being….no creative passsing, no ball movement, just run to the 3 point line and throw up a 3 as fast as they can. I love the nba….but there was nothing exciting or exceptional about watching that.

Another thing, do you watch players travel in todays game? Pay attention cause its every game, guys taking 3 or 4 steps. Never called. Flopping. Stopping the game 3 or 4 times every game to review a foul for potential flagrant. Bash the 80s/90s all you want, but modern nba has their own problems pal.

Finally, Bird would do just fine in todays nba. Luka is averaging 33/9/9 or something and he isnt the quickest, most athletic, deft defying athlete out there. Do you think his release is quick?

[Ben-N1ce]

LeBron was a better Shooter than Bird and Bird couldn't even get a shot off in today's NBA

[afarmenian]

So your expert opinion is that James is a better shooter than Bird was? Im talking 10 feet and out… Bird averaged 1.9 3 point attempts per game in his career. His career field goal pct was .50% and he wasnt getting alot of dunks per game. He was a great shooter. And defensive resistance? Today? When everybody is spaced out, centers are smaller, and the lane is wide open? Oh yea pal there is some great defense being played in todays nba. You notice these 145-150 point games?

I wouldn't even say better as has better form and fundamentals (probably why lebrons free thows are mediocre bad fundamentals)

as far as getting his shot off in the game and difficult and factoring in contested shots....yes worse than lebron. Larry's release was sloowww. He wouldn't even be able to get his shot off today so whats it matter. I don't know....maybe he adjusts but yhats a massive assumption.

The film don't lie. They were sagging off everyone in that era barely defended the 3 point line and long jumpers and his percentages still weren't anything special.

I watched a game last week. For 5 straight minutes, both teams ran up and down the court exchanging 3 point shots…..but neither team was making any of them. Finally Cam Payne made one!!!! Point being….no creative passsing, no ball movement, just run to the 3 point line and throw up a 3 as fast as they can. I love the nba….but there was nothing exciting or exceptional about watching that.

Another thing, do you watch players travel in todays game? Pay attention cause its every game, guys taking 3 or 4 steps. Never called. Flopping. Stopping the game 3 or 4 times every game to review a foul for potential flagrant. Bash the 80s/90s all you want, but modern nba has their own problems pal.

Finally, Bird would do just fine in todays nba. Luka is averaging 33/9/9 or something and he isnt the quickest, most athletic, deft defying athlete out there. Do you think his release is quick?

Well I think thats just old head parroting the same bs. There's plenty of traveling in that era. It's mainly found in the post with those lumbering uncoordinated oafs picking up there pivot foot. Does it happen more or less I don't know how you can quantify that.

I'd rather watch 3 point chucking then throwing the ball in the post 4 times in a row watching some awkward bs flail move though 3 guys that bricks and then the score is either a put back or the other team fast breaking off the turnover. That's like 75 percent of half court sets in the 80s garbage to watch and we pretend like it was amazing. That's why so many people watch games from back then because of that beautiful basketball.

Lukas release looks like Ray Allen compared to Birds windup over the head slow as molasses release.

That's like comparing Wilts grandpa post game to Embids or Jokic

[reddyplayerone]

I have to laugh at someone that says these things with such conviction. Assuming you are watching the same things I am. The reality is Larry Bird hit his jumpers with practically no defensive resistance. It's embarrassing to watch film see these all time great players get 5 feet of space and no closeouts and try to compare to modern basketball. It's no contest. Except free throws. Gotta give Bird that.

Watch this game and see how rough it is...it's not even evolved enough to call it real basketball at this point. Just a bunch of big dudes running around forcing drives and throwing up bricks when they are
Wide open


https://youtu.be/TdHRTzbllEg?si=D7bg57gQXAWjsu-w

Do me a favor…watch Lukas 70 point game. The guy was literally shooting uncontested layups throughout the game.

I did. Yeah it was pretty Trash defense thats fair and yet still better than like 95 percent of the 80s to mid 90s garbage basketball. I mean at least they were putting a hand up. They weren't even contesting shots in the finals just double teaming post for no reason and lazy recovers

If only the Celtics had you coaching them to tell them not to pointlessly double... *checks notes* ... Kareem Abdul Jabbar.

LeBron was a better Shooter than Bird and Bird couldn't even get a shot off in today's NBA

Oooh so you watched 1 whole game in 240p on YouTube once too!

[afarmenian]

"If I wanna have fun, I'll choose LeBron. If I wanna win, I'd take Kobe"

Kobe did nothing without top talent next to him.

Lebron took a bunch of truck drivers to the NBA finals.

This is one of the most tired narratives in sports.

LeBron never won anything without top talent next to him either.

Pretty much none of the all time great players won without top tier talent to play with. This should not be a revelatory or particularly controversial thing to say.

It's still a team game, despite fans insistence on fetishizing individualism.

I have to laugh at someone that says these things with such conviction. Assuming you are watching the same things I am. The reality is Larry Bird hit his jumpers with practically no defensive resistance. It's embarrassing to see these all time great players get 5 feet of space and no closeouts and try to compare to modern basketball. It's no contest. Except free throw. Gotta give Bird that.

Wow that's really nice of all those players in the 80's, letting Larry just hit open jumpers on them unabated like that.

I guess these pics from simply googling "Larry bird jumpshot" are some deepfake AI or something?:

Spoiler:

Oh, you're right, so because you found one picture of 1 or 2 guys within a couple feet of him and even from those angles they are barely contesting that just invalidates all the rest of the 95% of what you see in that era. Totally invalidates that because of those couple screenshots and the one in the grey aint even close thats garbage defense what are you talking about lol

[afarmenian]

Do me a favor…watch Lukas 70 point game. The guy was literally shooting uncontested layups throughout the game.

I did. Yeah it was pretty Trash defense thats fair and yet still better than like 95 percent of the 80s to mid 90s garbage basketball. I mean at least they were putting a hand up. They weren't even contesting shots in the finals just double teaming post for no reason and lazy recovers

If only the Celtics had you coaching them to tell them not to pointlessly double... *checks notes* ... Kareem Abdul Jabbar.

LeBron was a better Shooter than Bird and Bird couldn't even get a shot off in today's NBA

Oooh so you watched 1 whole game in 240p on YouTube once too!

Yeah, well, watch the actual game. And after you count up all the garbage bricks he throws up in the post that should have been the strategy. I guess Kareem played for the rest of the nba too.

Again I am watching film of the game in its entirety. You are just tossing out baseless cliche arguments.

Tell me where Kareem is dominating in the postbin that game that justified hard double teams all the time. Let me know what to look for because I missed it

[reddyplayerone]

Oh, you're right, so because you found one picture of 1 or 2 guys within a couple feet of him and even from those angles they are barely contesting that just invalidates all the rest of the 95% of what you see in that era. Totally invalidates that because of those couple screenshots and the one in the grey aint even close thats garbage defense what are you talking about lol

Shall I find you a 240p video of a single game instead?

Would that convince you, Mr. "Why Would You Double 6 Time MVP & All-Time Leading Scorer Kareem Abdul Jabbar that's POINTLESS!"?

I guess Kareem played for the rest of the nba too

I guess you think he did, since you're the only one here using a grainy video from one single game to disparage an entire generation of basketball!

[afarmenian]

Oh, you're right, so because you found one picture of 1 or 2 guys within a couple feet of him and even from those angles they are barely contesting that just invalidates all the rest of the 95% of what you see in that era. Totally invalidates that because of those couple screenshots and the one in the grey aint even close thats garbage defense what are you talking about lol

Shall I find you a 240p video of a single game instead?

Would that convince you, Mr. "Why Would You Double 6 Time MVP & All-Time Leading Scorer Kareem Abdul Jabbar that's POINTLESS!"?

Yes please? do so let's watch some actual film and not blindly parrot some cliche because its an all time great that we should all just thoughtless anoint as a basketball God. Sounds better to me

[afarmenian]

I guess you think he did, since you're the only one here using a grainy video from one single game to disparage an entire generation of basketball!

Hey it's one more game than you bothered to break down. And there are plenty more games to be found I never claimed to base my conclusions on one finals game bub

[reddyplayerone]

Oh, you're right, so because you found one picture of 1 or 2 guys within a couple feet of him and even from those angles they are barely contesting that just invalidates all the rest of the 95% of what you see in that era. Totally invalidates that because of those couple screenshots and the one in the grey aint even close thats garbage defense what are you talking about lol

Shall I find you a 240p video of a single game instead?

Would that convince you, Mr. "Why Would You Double 6 Time MVP & All-Time Leading Scorer Kareem Abdul Jabbar that's POINTLESS!"?

Yes please? do so let's watch some actual film and not blindly parrot some cliche because its an all time great that we should all just thoughtless anoint as a basketball God. Sounds better to me

Or Idk maybe we could look at the box scores from that Finals series. That would give us some idea of how Kareem did, right?

Here's the one from the game 7 you posted. You know, the one where Kareem was bricking everything:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/198406120BOS.html

Bricked his way to 29 points on 12-22 shooting lolol

Oh, and I'm not a bub.