Larry Bird vs Lebron James - Greatest SF of all Time

[arifgokcen]

Right, so we should do our NBA analysis in the same arbitrary manner that schools analyze test scores...and the schools that do have those cutoffs are highly criticized for it, because it's easy to see how arbitrary it is.

The difference between a 50 win team and a 49 win team is the same as the difference between a 51 win team and a 50 win team. 50 is just a random arbitrary number...what about 51+ win teams? Why not make that the cutoff?

Because 50 is a more significant number. Think of a 50th Birthday party or 50th year Wedding Anniversary. 49th year or 49th birthday or 51st year or 51st birthday does not hold the same weight. You know this. Cmon now.

This is childish reasoning. You're basically saying 50 is more significant, because it's a nice round number and 51 is not.

And comparing birthdays or wedding anniversaries to winning basketball games? Seriously?

this is,of course,childish reasoning.Jordanbulls is a very strange case he is very sensible and logical poster concerning anything but lebron but if a thread is about lebron,he suddenly becomes the most ridiculous troll you see on this site.Its really baffling

Look now he is using scheduled flights to NBA wins.

Jordanbulls i know you are too blind to see it but you can compare NBA wins to weight of apples.

For example you buy 50 apples.They weigh close to 10 pounds.You buy 49 apples or 51 apples and they still weigh close to 10 pounds.You see you are comparing apples and oranges.(amount and quantity)

[Narf]

Bird's best year: 28.1 points, 9.2 rebounds, 7.6 assists, 1.8 steals, 0.9 blocks, .612 TS%, 121 ORtg, 104 DRtg
James best year: 26.8 points, 8.0 rebounds, 7.3 assists, 1.7 steals, 0.9 blocks, .640 TS% 125 ORtg, 101 DRtg

Defensively, Bird was a good man defender. Not sure why that fallacy is out there.
Anyway
Regular season it's very closer, but LBJ is ahead there.
Playoff time, Bird. No question in my mind. He had an extra gear that LBJ lacks.

Bird's longevity is his big knock. But that's really it.

Bird was more than capable of dunking. But he'd put in a layup instead because that was the old-school way of thinking. You beat them, you don't show off. Maybe if he'd dunked more he'd be considered better.

[RSCD3_]

Bird's best year: 28.1 points, 9.2 rebounds, 7.6 assists, 1.8 steals, 0.9 blocks, .612 TS%, 121 ORtg, 104 DRtg
James best year: 26.8 points, 8.0 rebounds, 7.3 assists, 1.7 steals, 0.9 blocks, .640 TS% 125 ORtg, 101 DRtg

Defensively, Bird was a good man defender. Not sure why that fallacy is out there.
Anyway
Regular season it's very closer, but LBJ is ahead there.
Playoff time, Bird. No question in my mind. He had an extra gear that LBJ lacks.

Bird's longevity is his big knock. But that's really it.

Bird was more than capable of dunking. But he'd put in a layup instead because that was the old-school way of thinking. You beat them, you don't show off. Maybe if he'd dunked more he'd be considered better.

Bird was a trash talker, he's not some kind of saint.

He dunked many times when he was younger ( he entered the nba very late in today's time ) and then as he got older and started having injury problems, then he started being more of a shooter.

Also LBJ does have an extra gear as shown many times in the playoffs.

Sent from my SCH-I800 using RealGM Forums mobile app

[rich316]

Bird's best year: 28.1 points, 9.2 rebounds, 7.6 assists, 1.8 steals, 0.9 blocks, .612 TS%, 121 ORtg, 104 DRtg
James best year: 26.8 points, 8.0 rebounds, 7.3 assists, 1.7 steals, 0.9 blocks, .640 TS% 125 ORtg, 101 DRtg

Defensively, Bird was a good man defender. Not sure why that fallacy is out there.
Anyway
Regular season it's very closer, but LBJ is ahead there.
Playoff time, Bird. No question in my mind. He had an extra gear that LBJ lacks.

Bird's longevity is his big knock. But that's really it.

Bird was more than capable of dunking. But he'd put in a layup instead because that was the old-school way of thinking. You beat them, you don't show off. Maybe if he'd dunked more he'd be considered better.

86-87 Celtics had 98.6 possessions per 48 minutes.
12-13 Heat had 90.7 possessions per 48 minutes.

This means that Larry Bird had more opportunities to accumulate counting stats than Lebron James did. Per game stats are often deceiving when comparing across eras.

Saying "Bird was a good man defender" doesn't dismiss the significant difference between the two players as defenders. Yes, he wasn't David Lee out there. He also wasn't Lebron James.

I'm not sure about "extra gears" and whatnot. FWIW, Lebron averages 31.5 PPG in elimination playoff games, per Elias. Seems decent.

[laaboy808]

I'd side with Bird because he was able to turnaround the Celtics franchise from worst to first in his rookie year. LeBron wasn't able to do that in Cleveland and needed the assistance of Wade & Bosh in Miami before he was able to win his championship.

This is why I side with Bird. He was able to build upon the team in which he started his career and catapult them into the championship realm.

[rich316]

I'd side with Bird because he was able to turnaround the Celtics franchise from worst to first in his rookie year. LeBron wasn't able to do that in Cleveland and needed the assistance of Wade & Bosh in Miami before he was able to win his championship.

This is why I side with Bird. He was able to build upon the team in which he started his career and catapult them into the championship realm.

Yes, it's truly a blight on Lebron's legacy that in his sophomore season, he wasn't able to convince the GM of the Golden State Warriors to trade to the Cavs the picks that would have enabled him to draft Kevin McHale and Robert Parish.

In seriousness, though, Bird had a little more help from the front office of the team that drafted him.

[blessofcurse]

The Heat 's still not faced a 50 win team in their 2 championship run.
Not including finals.

And as for the 50 game mark...why 50? It's an arbitrary number. What about 48 win teams? Or 49 win teams? Are the teams that win 50 games just WAY better than the 48-49 win teams?

What im trying to say is Heat never faced a real title contender, it supposed to be Bulls if Rose didn't injured.

[PaulieWal]

The Heat 's still not faced a 50 win team in their 2 championship run.
Not including finals.

And as for the 50 game mark...why 50? It's an arbitrary number. What about 48 win teams? Or 49 win teams? Are the teams that win 50 games just WAY better than the 48-49 win teams?

What im trying to say is Heat never faced a real title contender, it supposed to be Bulls if Rose didn't injured.

The Spurs last year weren't a title contender? What about OKC in 2012? People like to act now that the 2012 Finals were supposed to be won by Miami but before the Finals began OKC was the favorite. That same team ran roughshod over a Spurs team which had won 20 straight.

Edit: I saw your OP saying not including Finals but that's still disingenuous as therealbig3 pointed out. Pacers both years were a very good team. Bosh was out in 2012 and Miami had to go through Indiana and Boston.

[laaboy808]

I'd side with Bird because he was able to turnaround the Celtics franchise from worst to first in his rookie year. LeBron wasn't able to do that in Cleveland and needed the assistance of Wade & Bosh in Miami before he was able to win his championship.

This is why I side with Bird. He was able to build upon the team in which he started his career and catapult them into the championship realm.

Yes, it's truly a blight on Lebron's legacy that in his sophomore season, he wasn't able to convince the GM of the Golden State Warriors to trade to the Cavs the picks that would have enabled him to draft Kevin McHale and Robert Parish.

In seriousness, though, Bird had a little more help from the front office of the team that drafted him.

It's true that Bird had the benefit of the greatest GM of all-time in Red Auerbach, but he also didn't hurt his chances by making "alleged personal" demands like LeBron James did during his Cleveland tenure.

It was also very impressive how Bird was able to flip the Celtics from first to worst in his rookie season and lead them to the playoffs. They didn't have McHale & Parish during his rookie season. LeBron didn't make the playoffs until his third season in the league.

[Narf]

I'd side with Bird because he was able to turnaround the Celtics franchise from worst to first in his rookie year. LeBron wasn't able to do that in Cleveland and needed the assistance of Wade & Bosh in Miami before he was able to win his championship.

This is why I side with Bird. He was able to build upon the team in which he started his career and catapult them into the championship realm.

Yes, it's truly a blight on Lebron's legacy that in his sophomore season, he wasn't able to convince the GM of the Golden State Warriors to trade to the Cavs the picks that would have enabled him to draft Kevin McHale and Robert Parish.

In seriousness, though, Bird had a little more help from the front office of the team that drafted him.

It's true that Bird had the benefit of the greatest GM of all-time in Red Auerbach, but he also didn't hurt his chances by making "alleged personal" demands like LeBron James did during his Cleveland tenure.

It was also very impressive how Bird was able to flip the Celtics from first to worst in his rookie season and lead them to the playoffs. They didn't have McHale & Parish during his rookie season. LeBron didn't make the playoffs until his third season in the league.

Oh please. Stop using facts like "Bird didn't have McHale and Parish to turn the Celtics from worst to first". It ruins their storyline about how Bird wasn't that great, he just had help unlike LeBron.

[rich316]

Yes, it's truly a blight on Lebron's legacy that in his sophomore season, he wasn't able to convince the GM of the Golden State Warriors to trade to the Cavs the picks that would have enabled him to draft Kevin McHale and Robert Parish.

In seriousness, though, Bird had a little more help from the front office of the team that drafted him.

It's true that Bird had the benefit of the greatest GM of all-time in Red Auerbach, but he also didn't hurt his chances by making "alleged personal" demands like LeBron James did during his Cleveland tenure.

It was also very impressive how Bird was able to flip the Celtics from first to worst in his rookie season and lead them to the playoffs. They didn't have McHale & Parish during his rookie season. LeBron didn't make the playoffs until his third season in the league.

Oh please. Stop using facts like "Bird didn't have McHale and Parish to turn the Celtics from worst to first". It ruins their storyline about how Bird wasn't that great, he just had help unlike LeBron.

Where did "their storyline" come in? I've never said that "Bird wasn't that great." As of now, I have him ranked ahead of Lebron. Do you dispute that Larry Bird's supporting cast in Boston was better than Lebron's in Cleveland? I'd be interested to hear that argument.

Bird certainly had an impressive rookie season, and it probably helped him out a bit in comparison to Lebron that he was 22 years old and Lebron was an 18 year old rookie.

[tsherkin]

Age gap matters; you can't sensibly compare their respective level of impact during rookie years. Bird was wha, 4 years older?

[JordansBulls]

Age gap matters; you can't sensibly compare their respective level of impact during rookie years. Bird was wha, 4 years older?

Why not if they are playing on the same level? Why should one get a pass for claiming they are ready earlier than someone else? If two people start college at the same time, the person who is 15 won't get a break over the person who is starting school at 19 years old because of an age difference and the reason for this is simply because both are on the same level in this instance.

[tsherkin]

Age gap matters; you can't sensibly compare their respective level of impact during rookie years. Bird was wha, 4 years older?

Why not if they are playing on the same level? Why should one get a pass for claiming they are ready earlier than someone else? If two people start college at the same time, the person who is 15 won't get a break over the person who is starting school at 19 years old because of an age difference and the reason for this is simply because both are on the same level in this instance.

Experience, coaching, time spent practicing skills, etc, etc...

[MoneyMo]

The Heat 's still not faced a 50 win team in their 2 championship run.
Not including finals.

And as for the 50 game mark...why 50? It's an arbitrary number. What about 48 win teams? Or 49 win teams? Are the teams that win 50 games just WAY better than the 48-49 win teams?

What im trying to say is Heat never faced a real title contender, it supposed to be Bulls if Rose didn't injured.

Does that matter considering they've beaten the 2 best teams in the West? hell they were pushed more in the ECF then either the Spurs or Thunder were pushed in the West so its not like they went into the finals fresh and well rested.

[Owly]

Age gap matters; you can't sensibly compare their respective level of impact during rookie years. Bird was wha, 4 years older?

Why not if they are playing on the same level? Why should one get a pass for claiming they are ready earlier than someone else? If two people start college at the same time, the person who is 15 won't get a break over the person who is starting school at 19 years old because of an age difference and the reason for this is simply because both are on the same level in this instance.

Because James wasn't claiming to be ready to be better than Larry Bird. Just to play in the NBA. Which he was.

Because the situations aren't analagous, the course presumably has a time limit, but LeBron starting at 19 rather than 23 doesn't mean he has to finish up four years sooner than Larry Legend (indeed he's already close Larry in RS minutes, probably ahead in quality minutes, and within 1000 playoff minutes).

Not that starting earlier won't plausibly lop some minutes off the end of your career (though not necessarily, nor in all cases). But comparing that way just penalizes LeBron for being ready early in he HS jump era; and rewards Bird for dropping out of IU.

So the rookie comparison doesn't enlighten us much when it comes to career added value or peak added value. It just says Bird was a better rookie. Which we all already knew.

[acrossthecourt]

lebron plays in an era where the league purposefully geared the game towards the offensive side of the ball.

so of course his offensive numbers (PER and the like) will be superior to bird's.

but bird was an equal passer that generated his assists holding the ball a fraction of the time lebron needs to generate his assists... bird's a better rebounder... bird's a better clutch scorer... bird's tougher.

for these reasons, i think it depends on the era... if we played in this era, lebron has a chance... in a previous era, forget it... he's toast.. it's pre-2012 all over again.

This is a misappropriation of league context.

PER is adjusted for league average, so it wouldn't even matter if offense was actually easier to come by. Win Shares are too.

And who cares? Rules change. Let's get over it. Stop living in the past. The 24 second shot clock hurt a lot of guys. The three-point line helped smaller players. Things change.

Plus, it's a net zero game ... it's not like the rules were *only* made for LeBron. They were made for everyone, and LeBron (who has to guard those guys too) smoked everyone.

If it's easier for him, it's easier for EVERYONE. But competition is relative.

[KyletheDingbat]

This thread is revealing almost eerie ways Magic/Bird is similar to Lebron/Durant. For instance, Magic was in the easy West while Bird was in the treacherous East. Lebron aka Magic 2.0 is in the easy East while Bird 2.0 is in the treacherous West.

Also their games and mentalities fit as well.

[mademan]

Age gap matters; you can't sensibly compare their respective level of impact during rookie years. Bird was wha, 4 years older?

Why not if they are playing on the same level? Why should one get a pass for claiming they are ready earlier than someone else? If two people start college at the same time, the person who is 15 won't get a break over the person who is starting school at 19 years old because of an age difference and the reason for this is simply because both are on the same level in this instance.

Rookie Bird was> rookie Lebron. Who cares? Rookie Melo was probably better than rookie Lebron too. Doesn't change the fact that peak/career Lebron was better than peak/career Bird.

[laaboy808]

LeBron will never have a case over Bird because he couldn't do what Bird did. He never had the ability to take a franchise in the doldrums, revitalize them and lead them to a championship. Moreso, he played in the watered down East and still couldn't win a ring in Cleveland. Instead, he left the team that drafted him and joined up with two other all-stars in the still watered down East.

Bird never gave up on a challenge and never made things easier for himself by teaming up with Magic or Jordan. He wanted the challenge and he conquered the challenge. Bird will always be the GOAT SF. He has statistics, intangibles and hardware to back it up. Most importantly, he has the championship mindset that LeBron lacks.