Better player next season: Simmons or Doncic?

[Texas Chuck]

This board is so anti-Ben Simmons at times it's cringey.

One of the highest Bball IQs we've seen, got a max contract without having to shoot the ball.

Is starting to shoot the ball, and the rookie with a low ceiling and poor efficiency is being coveted more by some of you. It's ok Ben Simmons will shut a lot of its haters up, and Luka fans will come back down to earth.

100% with you on Simmons.

Not sure we should be calling Luka low-ceiling just yet and his efficiency should rise like any young player with better shot selection and the team increases talent around him.


I've never understood all those who view these comparisons as zero sum where to talk good about one player you must trash the other. On either side.

Both are very talented young players. Push comes to shove I'd probably say Simmons is the better player next year. I expect Luka to be the better offensive player, but not by enough yet to make up for the significant defensive edge Simmons has.

[leolozon]

Ben Simmons (23 y.o.) in 2018-19: 16.9 Pts, 8.8 Rebs, 7.7 Assists, 58.2 TS%, 20.07 PER.

Luka Doncic (20 y.o.) in 2018-19: 21.2 Pts, 7,8 Rebs, 6.0 Assists, 54.5 TS%, 19.61 PER.

This will be dependent on Doncic improving his efficiency. Otherwise they will be in similar boats needing to be surrounded by efficient players. A example of HOF shooting comparisons I like to use is Kobe Bryant vs Allen Iverson. Despite being bashed by a lot of non Laker fans, Kobe's career TS% is .550. AI's on the other hand is .518.

Where I am going with this is Ben Simmons helps his team by not shooting threes but he needs shooters around him. Until Doncic becomes more efficient, since efficiency and shooting threes is the name of today's game, someone on his team needs to be good at it as well.

This is so close with both players needing similar help from their teammates; but for different weaknesses. Simmons is no threat to shoot the three; which is his weakness vs Doncic who, at least in his rookie season ( .327 ), was below the league average for threes which is .355; that is his weakness. I voted Simmons due to his defense, next season Doncic could change my mind.

And before someone shouts Hawks fan no wonder. I give Trae the same critique as Doncic. He needs to become more efficient and a better three point shooter as well.

While I agree with what you’re saying, Doncic was actually more efficient than his numbers suggest. If you take out all shots over 30 feet (that he took a lot at the end of quarters), he shot .340 from 3 instead of .327. Still below average, but not bad, even more considering most of them aren’t assisted.

I wish those type of shots were considered in another shooting stat as they are « free shots » and have nothing to do with a guy’s ability to hit a 3.

[GeorgeMarcus]

Would like to hear what you thinking he will realistically average next season and his %'s.

I hope/expect to see 1 of the following:
- willingness to shoot wide open 3's with regularity (at 30+%)
- higher volume of midrange, probably in the form of pull-up jumpers (think 25+% volume of shot attempts beyond 10 ft)

If he does both, I will be thrilled. #1 would be preferable imo. Forcing defenders to guard him on the perimeter would elevate his game/impact to another level. At the end of the day, any amount of progress is worthwhile progress. It's not often established All-Stars have such an obvious avenue to improve.

Well expect to be disappointed, he won't shoot 30%+, 30% is the likely cap and that does not force any significant additional perimeter defence on him, teams will force him to take those and he will miss a majority of them. You are excessively pro-Simmons, down 3-2 in the playoffs and you'd be wishing for Doncic instead

So what you're telling me is, there's no difference between Ben's 3pt shooting ability versus Westbrook's? Since the defense won't defend them either way? What a relief. Please tell this to everyone obsessing over Ben's unwillingness to shoot 3s.

In any situation in the playoffs, I'll take the provenly better player: Simmons. Perhaps it is you who should "expect to be disappointed".

[Swish1906]

This board is so anti-Ben Simmons at times it's cringey.

One of the highest Bball IQs we've seen, got a max contract without having to shoot the ball.

Is starting to shoot the ball, and the rookie with a low ceiling and poor efficiency is being coveted more by some of you. It's ok Ben Simmons will shut a lot of its haters up, and Luka fans will come back down to earth.

How on earth Luka has low ceiling? Dude scored more in rookie season than Simmons probably ever will.

And Simmons has yet to score single 3 pointer in his NBA career. Giannis is like a Curry compared to him.

I think people already posted why but Luka has had high level coaching and has very refined skills already at a young age. Yes his conditioning can get better but it’s hard to see what he is going to add to his game given his athleticism.

I love how people write such stuff like Doncic is the next Andre Miller...

That was "chubby" rookie Luka with not even close to a NBA body:

Watch on YouTube

[Misteclipse]

Quite obviously Ben Simmons. Far superior defensive player.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[TheFinishSniper]

Luka because he is complete player.

[Yuri Vaultin]

Quite obviously Ben Simmons. Far superior defensive player.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Quite obviously Luka. Far superior offensive player.

(see how that works?)

[thenbaman]

One's an all star the others not,enough said.

That's the stupidest thing ever said, Luka almost made the all-star game as a rookie with fan voting / one plays in the west the other the east / one of them avg like 10pts in his final series.

Luka is better than Simmons now, why would he be better than him next season

That's the stupidest thing ever said,east,west lol really.

[LKN]

Ben Simmons (23 y.o.) in 2018-19: 16.9 Pts, 8.8 Rebs, 7.7 Assists, 58.2 TS%, 20.07 PER.

Luka Doncic (20 y.o.) in 2018-19: 21.2 Pts, 7,8 Rebs, 6.0 Assists, 54.5 TS%, 19.61 PER.

This will be dependent on Doncic improving his efficiency. Otherwise they will be in similar boats needing to be surrounded by efficient players. A example of HOF shooting comparisons I like to use is Kobe Bryant vs Allen Iverson. Despite being bashed by a lot of non Laker fans, Kobe's career TS% is .550. AI's on the other hand is .518.

Where I am going with this is Ben Simmons helps his team by not shooting threes but he needs shooters around him. Until Doncic becomes more efficient, since efficiency and shooting threes is the name of today's game, someone on his team needs to be good at it as well.

This is so close with both players needing similar help from their teammates; but for different weaknesses. Simmons is no threat to shoot the three; which is his weakness vs Doncic who, at least in his rookie season ( .327 ), was below the league average for threes which is .355; that is his weakness. I voted Simmons due to his defense, next season Doncic could change my mind.

And before someone shouts Hawks fan no wonder. I give Trae the same critique as Doncic. He needs to become more efficient and a better three point shooter as well.

Doncic had a .545 TS and host .340 from 3 if you remove shots over 30 feet (which most guys dont take to protect their percentages). His efficiency was actually great for a rookie at 19. Lebron put up a .488 TS as a rookie for reference.

[Buzzard]

Ben Simmons (23 y.o.) in 2018-19: 16.9 Pts, 8.8 Rebs, 7.7 Assists, 58.2 TS%, 20.07 PER.

Luka Doncic (20 y.o.) in 2018-19: 21.2 Pts, 7,8 Rebs, 6.0 Assists, 54.5 TS%, 19.61 PER.

This will be dependent on Doncic improving his efficiency. Otherwise they will be in similar boats needing to be surrounded by efficient players. A example of HOF shooting comparisons I like to use is Kobe Bryant vs Allen Iverson. Despite being bashed by a lot of non Laker fans, Kobe's career TS% is .550. AI's on the other hand is .518.

Where I am going with this is Ben Simmons helps his team by not shooting threes but he needs shooters around him. Until Doncic becomes more efficient, since efficiency and shooting threes is the name of today's game, someone on his team needs to be good at it as well.

This is so close with both players needing similar help from their teammates; but for different weaknesses. Simmons is no threat to shoot the three; which is his weakness vs Doncic who, at least in his rookie season ( .327 ), was below the league average for threes which is .355; that is his weakness. I voted Simmons due to his defense, next season Doncic could change my mind.

And before someone shouts Hawks fan no wonder. I give Trae the same critique as Doncic. He needs to become more efficient and a better three point shooter as well.

Doncic had a .545 TS and host .340 from 3 if you remove shots over 30 feet (which most guys dont take to protect their percentages). His efficiency was actually great for a rookie at 19. Lebron put up a .488 TS as a rookie for reference.

I am glad you used LeBron as a example. He could not shoot a three to save his life in his rookie season ( .290 ). His second season he shot .351 from three point range and his TS% jumped to .554. He had one more average season of .552 in his fourth season and after that it was lights out.

As I said, If Doncic can improve his efficiency, he will change my mind. But until then, I will take Simmons advantage in defense over Luka's below average shooting three point advantage.

[PhilBlackson]

A lot depends if that good ol' gym footage of Ben translates at all to an actual NBA game...

If Ben starts actually hitting some jumpers that will completely open up his game and the floor THEN Simmons can be on the path to being a special player. But if he doesn't show that same confidence on a NBA court, barely takes any and his confidence appears shaky at best (which I believe is still a legit concern until he's shows otherwise) then I'll continue to give Luka the edge.

While Luka's shooting also needs some improvement, he clearly has some shooting touch...I just think he needs to be a little more selective and teammates that will help spread the court and get him easier looks which KP should do. Not sure why ppl think he's already almost at his peak as 21 year old lol complete joke.

The game is just going to keep slowing down for him and he's just going to continue to add more to his game, up his huge bball IQ more and more and the game will continue to get easier and easier for him...just watch. I'm not saying he's the same player or caliber but it reminds me of how Larry Bird picked apart the league. I understand that shooting was of course a massive part of Bird but a ton of it was he was just so much craftier and had an unbelievable bball IQ which I think is the same thing Luka will hone to his advantage more and more too.

[jason bourne]

Ben Simmons won ROY?

[Bob8]

The question is really simple. Do you believe, that Simmons will suddenly from 0 find his jumper and consequently become MVP? Because Simmons with a jumper is MVP. Or Luka with better conditioning, having time for first time in his life to really work on his body, will find 5 percentage points in 3 points shooting? Simmons might have higher ceiling, but the way to there is extremely difficult. On the other hand, Luka’s 25/8/8 is not really that far. This discussion is just about probability. Anything can happen, but 1 thing is more probable than other.

[Bob8]

This board is so anti-Ben Simmons at times it's cringey.

One of the highest Bball IQs we've seen, got a max contract without having to shoot the ball.

Is starting to shoot the ball, and the rookie with a low ceiling and poor efficiency is being coveted more by some of you. It's ok Ben Simmons will shut a lot of its haters up, and Luka fans will come back down to earth.

100% with you on Simmons.

Not sure we should be calling Luka low-ceiling just yet and his efficiency should rise like any young player with better shot selection and the team increases talent around him.


I've never understood all those who view these comparisons as zero sum where to talk good about one player you must trash the other. On either side.

Both are very talented young players. Push comes to shove I'd probably say Simmons is the better player next year. I expect Luka to be the better offensive player, but not by enough yet to make up for the significant defensive edge Simmons has.

They’re both great players. But I have never understood, why we should be politically correct and praise everyone the same? Simmons with a jumper is multiple MVP. He would have won this poll with 100%. But the fact is, that Simmons is not only incredible bad shooter, much worse, he’s not shooting at all. We’re living in shooting and pick& roll heavy era and you have a Pg, who’s not shooting at all? Is something wrong to say, he is good, but with fatal error, if he wants to be really one of the best?
On the other side, you have Luka, with supposedly low ceiling, having 21/8/6 in his rookie year, half of the season not playing his best position. Assists should go up this year, rebounds stay more or less the same, no more Jordan but KP. Points are more tricky, it depends how KP will look. But if Luka takes less shots, his efficiency should go much higher. My guess is, that Luka will be better.

If Simmons suddenly starts shooting, which he should, his efficiency would plunge. Because it’s no way, you become an average shooter from 0 in one summer. On the long term, this is the only way he should go, but we’re talking about next year. It’s really difficult to become an average shooter from Simmons position and even if he managed that, it will be a long process.

[OzThunder]

12 pages of calling Doncic a "more complete player." Very little mention of defense (half the game last i checked).

[moistnessfiscal]

I hope/expect to see 1 of the following:
- willingness to shoot wide open 3's with regularity (at 30+%)
- higher volume of midrange, probably in the form of pull-up jumpers (think 25+% volume of shot attempts beyond 10 ft)

If he does both, I will be thrilled. #1 would be preferable imo. Forcing defenders to guard him on the perimeter would elevate his game/impact to another level. At the end of the day, any amount of progress is worthwhile progress. It's not often established All-Stars have such an obvious avenue to improve.

Well expect to be disappointed, he won't shoot 30%+, 30% is the likely cap and that does not force any significant additional perimeter defence on him, teams will force him to take those and he will miss a majority of them. You are excessively pro-Simmons, down 3-2 in the playoffs and you'd be wishing for Doncic instead

So what you're telling me is, there's no difference between Ben's 3pt shooting ability versus Westbrook's? Since the defense won't defend them either way? What a relief. Please tell this to everyone obsessing over Ben's unwillingness to shoot 3s.

In any situation in the playoffs, I'll take the provenly better player: Simmons. Perhaps it is you who should "expect to be disappointed".

Westbrook shot 36.4% on 2.8 catch and shoot attempts per game which shows a modicum of skill enough for defences to marginally guard him on such attempts, his pull-up attempts though tell another story and defenders rightfully sag off. Ben's majority of his three-point attempts will likely come from lightly guarded or catch and shoot attempts, which he will shoot likely less than 30% on such attempts. If anything Ben's three-point shooting would likely compare more to Rondae Hollis-Jefferson's first season at 28% on less than an attempt per game as there is no precedent of him shooting at even a mediocre level.

As to your playoff point, what has he proven? Sure he's a terrific transition player, a generational passer, a good defender, and can score in the post and paint efficiently, but he's merely a third-option in the half-court right now, and that's much easier to replace than an efficient scorer like Doncic even if his defence is questionable. If getting kicked out in second rounds in consecutive years is proven then so be it. Without Embiid, it would've likely been a 5 game series...

[Wagonband]

12 pages of calling Doncic a "more complete player." Very little mention of defense (half the game last i checked).

Hard to swallow pill which people once knew subconciously but forgot lately, defence can be theoretically half of the game, but it's not half as important as offense. Any team will take a superior offensive player to a superior defensive player, it's just how the game works, since scoring is harder than defending by default.

For example, you can have guys like Kemba Walker and Kyrie Irving that are really weak defenders as Max players, because their offence is a very needed commodity. On the other hand, you have guys like Tony Allen, Robertson, Covington, Smart that will never sniff a max contract, despite being elite defenders...

Simmons was ok in the playoffs as a good defender to throw at guys, but he probably hurt the Sixers far more on the offence than he helped them on defence. Swap him with Doncic these playoffs; while you can't put him to guard Giannis, you could put him on a lesser threat and still have someone that the defence has to not only respect but gameplan against on the other side.

Imagine a lineup of Doncic/Reddick/Embiid/Harris/Butler... How the hell are you doubling Embiid? How the hell are you are loading the paint so guys can't drive? I would argue Doncic is superior playmaker to Simmons in half court offence, so that lineup would be completly unstoppable on that end.

Simmons is a very good player, but he has a fatal flaw which is unacceptable in todays NBA. And even if you believe Doncic can't improve (people have been saying that for 4 years now, and he made a mega-leap every single year), if he just gets in shape a bit more as people mentioned his stats will improve from an already insane rookie season with ease.

So unless Simmons shows up with a jumper next year, Doncic will definely be the better player.

[whatever_]

looking forward to bumping this thread by the end of the next season after ben's a consensus top 10 player in the league while luka goes through his sophomore slump

same way last year he was a european overrated bum, right?

There will be no slump for Luka

[Goon]

saying that Luka can't improve much is plain stupid

What's funny is that this exact argument has been hovering above Luka for a few 3 years now. Ever since he became an important player at Real Madrid at 18 years of age. And each and every season he came back better. People just never learn.

Also, those saying he's limited athletically only look at explosiveness like that's the only part of it. Let's disregard his body control and balance under contact, hist stopping ability, and speed in the open court. He can't jump high? Yeah, he must be a poor athlete. Smh.

[TheBallsDeeper]

12 pages of calling Doncic a "more complete player." Very little mention of defense (half the game last i checked).

Hard to swallow pill which people once knew subconciously but forgot lately, defence can be theoretically half of the game, but it's not half as important as offense. Any team will take a superior offensive player to a superior defensive player, it's just how the game works, since scoring is harder than defending by default.

For example, you can have guys like Kemba Walker and Kyrie Irving that are really weak defenders as Max players, because their offence is a very needed commodity. On the other hand, you have guys like Tony Allen, Robertson, Covington, Smart that will never sniff a max contract, despite being elite defenders...

Simmons was ok in the playoffs as a good defender to throw at guys, but he probably hurt the Sixers far more on the offence than he helped them on defence. Swap him with Doncic these playoffs; while you can't put him to guard Giannis, you could put him on a lesser threat and still have someone that the defence has to not only respect but gameplan against on the other side.

Imagine a lineup of Doncic/Reddick/Embiid/Harris/Butler... How the hell are you doubling Embiid? How the hell are you are loading the paint so guys can't drive? I would argue Doncic is superior playmaker to Simmons in half court offence, so that lineup would be completly unstoppable on that end.

Simmons is a very good player, but he has a fatal flaw which is unacceptable in todays NBA. And even if you believe Doncic can't improve (people have been saying that for 4 years now, and he made a mega-leap every single year), if he just gets in shape a bit more as people mentioned his stats will improve from an already insane rookie season with ease.

So unless Simmons shows up with a jumper next year, Doncic will definely be the better player.

I disagree with pretty much everything that you have written.

Offensive players get the max, that's the only bit I agree with. Why they get the max is a different story. In my opinion offensive players get more media exposure, sell more merchandise, they are more popular - basically they create more revenue, so they get paid well - but I don't think they help to win a championship more than a defensive player.

You have used Kyrie Irving and Kembla Walker as examples of why offense is higher rated - I would use those exact two players as why offense is overrated. I actually think you would struggle to find two players that are could be any more detrimental to your argument. Kyrie, Kemba, DeAnglo Russel, James Harden, Russell Westbrook are all max players, none of them play winning basketball. You switch Gobert with any one of those players and the team will be just as good.

Players like Gobert, Robert Covington are as valuable as the above offensive players - they are limited to one side of the ball, but impact the game just as much.

Two-way players - Kawhi, Durrant, Kobe, MJ, Lebon, Duncan, Shaq - They win championships.

Your say "Simmons was ok in the playoffs as a good defender to throw at guys, but he probably hurt the Sixers far more on the offence" Simmons averaged 14/7/6 in the 2019 playoffs, which is hardly an offensive liability, while also spending most of the time guarding the other teams best player. Also, you said "Swap him with Doncic these playoffs; while you can't put him to guard Giannis, you could put him on a lesser threat" - DeAngelo Russel would have knocked them out of the playoffs with JJ Reddick guarding him.

"Imagine a lineup of Doncic/Reddick/Embiid/Harris/Butler." - That backcourt would get destroyed on defense. Who does Donic and JJ guard in the Raptors series? Is Donic going to be guarding Kawhi? Or will Butler take him and Doncic guards Siakim? Maybe Doncic guards Lowrey and Reddick goes to Siakim??? There is no way that that line up makes it through to the finals. Doncics 32.7% three-point shooting is not going to suddenly make up for the lack of defense.

At this stage Doncic is a very good young player, but he has large flaws in his game - he is a below-average shooter and a below-average defender. Hopefully, he becomes a better than the average shooter, but there is nothing to suggest that he will become elite. Hopefully he becomes an average defender, because physically there is no way he becomes elite.

Simmons has a major flaw in his game, Doncic has a couple of large flaws. While both will be very good players, I think it's 50/50 as to who can overcome their floors and will be the better player.