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pepe1991 wrote:

Skin wrote:

JBSouthpaw wrote:
Cute that you think that it's Coach.. Mo can't keep himself healthy.

Well we ARE taking about a coach that put Christian Wood in his doghouse and didn't understand his player.

This is missleading and not true.
Wood was undrafted, signed with 76ers, but his second 10 day contract was last.
Than he joined Hornets, didn't play much.
Entered FA, ended up with Dallas ( never played) than Suns, basically never played, than Bucks, never played, than Pelicans.

So it has nothing to do with Clifford, he playeyed for 5 nba teams before Detroit, including Dallas coach ( former nba champion) and Mike Budenholze ( coach of the year). He just wasn't good.

He had no outside jumpshot up until last year and he is that 6'10 -210 pounds center that was nothing but rim runner.

Even today, he does average 23 ppg ,but 92% of all his FGM are assisted. Overall even before and after Harden trade he is in great situation. Being center with Wall , Harden, with great floor spacing of Tucker, Mclemore, Gordon, Sterling Brown isn't that hard. Just roll of pick&roll and you will get easiest looks in basketball. Credit to him, he learned how to shoot over time.


Clifford isn't top 5 coach, he loves some things in basketball that fans hate ( boring offense, controled turnovers, controled defense), he prefers players who are not wrackless but is also guy who gets his "dogs" like MCW and Bacon ( who suck), but his relationship with young players is pretty much flying grades. In his career he put only 2 guys in doghouse that were young. Noah Vonleh and Malik Monk. 2 complete scrubs.

He may of had a hand with JJ being in the doghouse too. They did have players like Bogan, Pietrus, and Lee tho.

It's weird that we spent those early years that Redick was on the bench as a team that was a SG away. He was just as good then as he is now, he just didn't get an opportunity.

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basketballRob wrote:

pepe1991 wrote:

Skin wrote:Well we ARE taking about a coach that put Christian Wood in his doghouse and didn't understand his player.

This is missleading and not true.
Wood was undrafted, signed with 76ers, but his second 10 day contract was last.
Than he joined Hornets, didn't play much.
Entered FA, ended up with Dallas ( never played) than Suns, basically never played, than Bucks, never played, than Pelicans.

So it has nothing to do with Clifford, he playeyed for 5 nba teams before Detroit, including Dallas coach ( former nba champion) and Mike Budenholze ( coach of the year). He just wasn't good.

He had no outside jumpshot up until last year and he is that 6'10 -210 pounds center that was nothing but rim runner.

Even today, he does average 23 ppg ,but 92% of all his FGM are assisted. Overall even before and after Harden trade he is in great situation. Being center with Wall , Harden, with great floor spacing of Tucker, Mclemore, Gordon, Sterling Brown isn't that hard. Just roll of pick&roll and you will get easiest looks in basketball. Credit to him, he learned how to shoot over time.


Clifford isn't top 5 coach, he loves some things in basketball that fans hate ( boring offense, controled turnovers, controled defense), he prefers players who are not wrackless but is also guy who gets his "dogs" like MCW and Bacon ( who suck), but his relationship with young players is pretty much flying grades. In his career he put only 2 guys in doghouse that were young. Noah Vonleh and Malik Monk. 2 complete scrubs.

He may of had a hand with JJ being in the doghouse too. They did have players like Bogan, Pietrus, and Lee tho.

Sent from my SM-G950U using RealGM mobile app

JJ wasn't in doghouse, he just wasn't that good. It's one of most boring lies without any context.

He was regularly the worst rotation player on defense ( along Ryan Anderson ) during era of basketball where 3 point shooting wasn't that important.
It's 2010-11, nba teams take 18 threes a game and your 3 point specialist can't defend anybody, while you running 14th ranked offense and 3rd best defense, you are elite because of your defense, not offense, and you already have to deal with Nelson being **** defender and Hedo being slow footed. How many bad defenders can you put on floor and bank on 6'9 center to bail them out? Oh there is also out of his prime, with bummed knees Carter at wing who also can't really defend that well and Anderson can't stay in front of chair.
At average that years, teams made 6 threes a game. Six. As a team. Total. Today every game has one player that goes off alone and makes 5.

JJ Redick was born in wrong era, in today's era he would be like Joe Harris. In era where he spent most of his career he was nothing but liability that could shoot, but nobody was shooting enough 3s to make it worth it.
Just like Drazen Petrovic in this era would be some mega-26/30 ppg scorer, but in early 1990s his 43% three point shooting had no implemetion in offense as teams flat out did not shoot that much for 3 nor runned anything for him often enough where his amazing shot would be that special. Same with Reggie Miller and Steve Nash. Those guys would be killers in this era.

basketballRob wrote:

pepe1991 wrote:

Skin wrote:Well we ARE taking about a coach that put Christian Wood in his doghouse and didn't understand his player.

This is missleading and not true.
Wood was undrafted, signed with 76ers, but his second 10 day contract was last.
Than he joined Hornets, didn't play much.
Entered FA, ended up with Dallas ( never played) than Suns, basically never played, than Bucks, never played, than Pelicans.

So it has nothing to do with Clifford, he playeyed for 5 nba teams before Detroit, including Dallas coach ( former nba champion) and Mike Budenholze ( coach of the year). He just wasn't good.

He had no outside jumpshot up until last year and he is that 6'10 -210 pounds center that was nothing but rim runner.

Even today, he does average 23 ppg ,but 92% of all his FGM are assisted. Overall even before and after Harden trade he is in great situation. Being center with Wall , Harden, with great floor spacing of Tucker, Mclemore, Gordon, Sterling Brown isn't that hard. Just roll of pick&roll and you will get easiest looks in basketball. Credit to him, he learned how to shoot over time.


Clifford isn't top 5 coach, he loves some things in basketball that fans hate ( boring offense, controled turnovers, controled defense), he prefers players who are not wrackless but is also guy who gets his "dogs" like MCW and Bacon ( who suck), but his relationship with young players is pretty much flying grades. In his career he put only 2 guys in doghouse that were young. Noah Vonleh and Malik Monk. 2 complete scrubs.

He may of had a hand with JJ being in the doghouse too. They did have players like Bogan, Pietrus, and Lee tho.

It's weird that we spent those early years that Redick was on the bench as a team that was a SG away. He was just as good then as he is now, he just didn't get an opportunity.

Sent from my SM-G950U using RealGM mobile app

That's not true and JJ Redick would say so as well.

pepe1991 wrote:

Skin wrote:

JBSouthpaw wrote:
Cute that you think that it's Coach.. Mo can't keep himself healthy.

Well we ARE taking about a coach that put Christian Wood in his doghouse and didn't understand his player.

This is missleading and not true.
Wood was undrafted, signed with 76ers, but his second 10 day contract was last.
Than he joined Hornets, didn't play much.
Entered FA, ended up with Dallas ( never played) than Suns, basically never played, than Bucks, never played, than Pelicans.

So it has nothing to do with Clifford, he playeyed for 5 nba teams before Detroit, including Dallas coach ( former nba champion) and Mike Budenholze ( coach of the year). He just wasn't good.

He had no outside jumpshot up until last year and he is that 6'10 -210 pounds center that was nothing but rim runner.

Even today, he does average 23 ppg ,but 92% of all his FGM are assisted. Overall even before and after Harden trade he is in great situation. Being center with Wall , Harden, with great floor spacing of Tucker, Mclemore, Gordon, Sterling Brown isn't that hard. Just roll of pick&roll and you will get easiest looks in basketball. Credit to him, he learned how to shoot over time.


Clifford isn't top 5 coach, he loves some things in basketball that fans hate ( boring offense, controled turnovers, controled defense), he prefers players who are not wrackless but is also guy who gets his "dogs" like MCW and Bacon ( who suck), but his relationship with young players is pretty much flying grades. In his career he put only 2 guys in doghouse that were young. Noah Vonleh and Malik Monk. 2 complete scrubs.

Yeah.... wood was just a lanky and long energy guy coming into the league. Hasn't put on much size since being in the league... but he's definitely stronger. Players flourish at different times... and i'm happy he did.... but people can't judge on hindsight. lol.... i bet the bucks would love to have him back too.

Def Swami wrote:

basketballRob wrote:

pepe1991 wrote:
This is missleading and not true.
Wood was undrafted, signed with 76ers, but his second 10 day contract was last.
Than he joined Hornets, didn't play much.
Entered FA, ended up with Dallas ( never played) than Suns, basically never played, than Bucks, never played, than Pelicans.

So it has nothing to do with Clifford, he playeyed for 5 nba teams before Detroit, including Dallas coach ( former nba champion) and Mike Budenholze ( coach of the year). He just wasn't good.

He had no outside jumpshot up until last year and he is that 6'10 -210 pounds center that was nothing but rim runner.

Even today, he does average 23 ppg ,but 92% of all his FGM are assisted. Overall even before and after Harden trade he is in great situation. Being center with Wall , Harden, with great floor spacing of Tucker, Mclemore, Gordon, Sterling Brown isn't that hard. Just roll of pick&roll and you will get easiest looks in basketball. Credit to him, he learned how to shoot over time.


Clifford isn't top 5 coach, he loves some things in basketball that fans hate ( boring offense, controled turnovers, controled defense), he prefers players who are not wrackless but is also guy who gets his "dogs" like MCW and Bacon ( who suck), but his relationship with young players is pretty much flying grades. In his career he put only 2 guys in doghouse that were young. Noah Vonleh and Malik Monk. 2 complete scrubs.

He may of had a hand with JJ being in the doghouse too. They did have players like Bogan, Pietrus, and Lee tho.

It's weird that we spent those early years that Redick was on the bench as a team that was a SG away. He was just as good then as he is now, he just didn't get an opportunity.

Sent from my SM-G950U using RealGM mobile app

That's not true and JJ Redick would say so as well.

I listened to JJ in his Bamba podcast interview and i sensed resentment. He told Bamba a lot of it is being drafted into the right situation.

Bamba like JJ wasn't drafted into the right situation.

I wouldn't be surprised if JJ didn't request a trade later this year.

pepe1991 wrote:

basketballRob wrote:

pepe1991 wrote:
This is missleading and not true.
Wood was undrafted, signed with 76ers, but his second 10 day contract was last.
Than he joined Hornets, didn't play much.
Entered FA, ended up with Dallas ( never played) than Suns, basically never played, than Bucks, never played, than Pelicans.

So it has nothing to do with Clifford, he playeyed for 5 nba teams before Detroit, including Dallas coach ( former nba champion) and Mike Budenholze ( coach of the year). He just wasn't good.

He had no outside jumpshot up until last year and he is that 6'10 -210 pounds center that was nothing but rim runner.

Even today, he does average 23 ppg ,but 92% of all his FGM are assisted. Overall even before and after Harden trade he is in great situation. Being center with Wall , Harden, with great floor spacing of Tucker, Mclemore, Gordon, Sterling Brown isn't that hard. Just roll of pick&roll and you will get easiest looks in basketball. Credit to him, he learned how to shoot over time.


Clifford isn't top 5 coach, he loves some things in basketball that fans hate ( boring offense, controled turnovers, controled defense), he prefers players who are not wrackless but is also guy who gets his "dogs" like MCW and Bacon ( who suck), but his relationship with young players is pretty much flying grades. In his career he put only 2 guys in doghouse that were young. Noah Vonleh and Malik Monk. 2 complete scrubs.

He may of had a hand with JJ being in the doghouse too. They did have players like Bogan, Pietrus, and Lee tho.

Sent from my SM-G950U using RealGM mobile app

JJ wasn't in doghouse, he just wasn't that good. It's one of most boring lies without any context.

He was regularly the worst rotation player on defense ( along Ryan Anderson ) during era of basketball where 3 point shooting wasn't that important.
It's 2010-11, nba teams take 18 threes a game and your 3 point specialist can't defend anybody, while you running 14th ranked offense and 3rd best defense, you are elite because of your defense, not offense, and you already have to deal with Nelson being **** defender and Hedo being slow footed. How many bad defenders can you put on floor and bank on 6'9 center to bail them out? Oh there is also out of his prime, with bummed knees Carter at wing who also can't really defend that well and Anderson can't stay in front of chair.
At average that years, teams made 6 threes a game. Six. As a team. Total. Today every game has one player that goes off alone and makes 5.

JJ Redick was born in wrong era, in today's era he would be like Joe Harris. In era where he spent most of his career he was nothing but liability that could shoot, but nobody was shooting enough 3s to make it worth it.
Just like Drazen Petrovic in this era would be some mega-26/30 ppg scorer, but in early 1990s his 43% three point shooting had no implemetion in offense as teams flat out did not shoot that much for 3 nor runned anything for him often enough where his amazing shot would be that special. Same with Reggie Miller and Steve Nash. Those guys would be killers in this era.

He had a good TS, and from what i hear that's more important than defense.

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basketballRob wrote:

Def Swami wrote:

basketballRob wrote:He may of had a hand with JJ being in the doghouse too. They did have players like Bogan, Pietrus, and Lee tho.

It's weird that we spent those early years that Redick was on the bench as a team that was a SG away. He was just as good then as he is now, he just didn't get an opportunity.

Sent from my SM-G950U using RealGM mobile app

That's not true and JJ Redick would say so as well.

I listened to JJ in his Bamba podcast interview and i sensed resentment. He told Bamba a lot of it is being drafted into the right situation.

Bamba like JJ wasn't drafted into the right situation.

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And with Van Gundy and J.J. Redick, that respect is certainly mutual.

“I think just in terms of intangibles and characteristics I think any NBA player should have, I think he taught me those things and he reinforced those things in me — professionalism, accountability, playing sort of hard and the same way every game, not taking any nights off, all that stuff, because he lives that,” Redick said. “I see how hard he works, how much he invests in his craft, and so as a player, playing for him, you really have no choice but to do the same.”


The two were together in Orlando, where Van Gundy coached Redick starting in his second season. And even though Redick’s minutes actually went down that year, he began forming a relationship that would shape his NBA career.

In addition to reinforcing the idea that self accountability was a necessary trait, on the court, Van Gundy helped shape Redick into a valuable defender despite athletic limitations that keep him from being a 1-on-1 stopper.

“Pretty much any sort of team defense concept that’s pertinent to modern NBA basketball, I learned from Stan,” Redick said.

https://www.dailynews.com/2016/11/08/jj-redick-learned-his-craft-from-piston-coach-stan-van-gundy/


There is literally no resentment.

ESPN’s Brian Windhorst revealed on “The Jump” this week that veteran guard JJ Redick played a big role in recruiting Van Gundy to the Pelicans. Redick played for Van Gundy on the Orlando Magic for five seasons from 2007 to 2012. They also made the NBA Finals together in 2009.

He even goes out of his way to praise Steve Clifford at the 2:43 mark.
"Clifford is one of my favorite people and favorite coaches that I've played for in this league."
;ab_channel=JJRedick

You're right. Bamba probably wasn't drafted into the right situation. It never made sense to invest the 5th pick into a center and sign Nik Vucevic to a 4 year deal.

And the way the Magic are treating Bamba is similar to the way SVG treated JJ Redick. But, that's because that's what Redick warranted early in his career to become a 14 year pro. Redick says it himself any chance he gets to. If Bamba is truly cut out for it, he'll earn his time and will be better for it in the long run.

Def Swami wrote:

basketballRob wrote:

Def Swami wrote:That's not true and JJ Redick would say so as well.

I listened to JJ in his Bamba podcast interview and i sensed resentment. He told Bamba a lot of it is being drafted into the right situation.

Bamba like JJ wasn't drafted into the right situation.

Sent from my SM-G950U using RealGM mobile app

And with Van Gundy and J.J. Redick, that respect is certainly mutual.

“I think just in terms of intangibles and characteristics I think any NBA player should have, I think he taught me those things and he reinforced those things in me — professionalism, accountability, playing sort of hard and the same way every game, not taking any nights off, all that stuff, because he lives that,” Redick said. “I see how hard he works, how much he invests in his craft, and so as a player, playing for him, you really have no choice but to do the same.”


The two were together in Orlando, where Van Gundy coached Redick starting in his second season. And even though Redick’s minutes actually went down that year, he began forming a relationship that would shape his NBA career.

In addition to reinforcing the idea that self accountability was a necessary trait, on the court, Van Gundy helped shape Redick into a valuable defender despite athletic limitations that keep him from being a 1-on-1 stopper.

“Pretty much any sort of team defense concept that’s pertinent to modern NBA basketball, I learned from Stan,” Redick said.

https://www.dailynews.com/2016/11/08/jj-redick-learned-his-craft-from-piston-coach-stan-van-gundy/


There is literally no resentment.

ESPN’s Brian Windhorst revealed on “The Jump” this week that veteran guard JJ Redick played a big role in recruiting Van Gundy to the Pelicans. Redick played for Van Gundy on the Orlando Magic for five seasons from 2007 to 2012. They also made the NBA Finals together in 2009.

He even goes out of his way to praise Steve Clifford at the 2:43 mark.
"Clifford is one of my favorite people and favorite coaches that I've played for in this league."

Watch on YouTube

;ab_channel=JJRedick

When I have a chance I'll listen to the Bamba podcast again and pinpoint where he talks about where you're drafted has a lot to do with how your career goes.

I mean how many starts did he get here, like 5 in 6 years? Then leaves here and starts 99% of the time.

Ducklett wrote:

JBSouthpaw wrote:

Ducklett wrote:
Cute that you think Coach Cliff could remove his head from his rear end long enough to put Bamba into the game. Keep that hope and hold it close friend.

Cute that you think that it's Coach.. Mo can't keep himself healthy.

So what health issue makes you not be able to play until garbage time for 2 minutes at a time?

Pretty simple to find your answer.

Bamba averaged more minutes per game last year than Birch.

He's been out 3 times for covid - Bubble last year, beginning of this year, and currently. He also took a knee to the back which cost him a game.
Cliff was ramping his minutes up until this last covid issue.

Man it will be tough to get at bottom 3

pepe1991 wrote:

Man it will be tough to get at bottom 3

Na not at all. Wolves will win more once KAT is back and I can see Washington winning more than us. I’d argue Detroit are the only worse team than us. And it’s debatable.

Husky1 wrote:

pepe1991 wrote:

Man it will be tough to get at bottom 3

Na not at all. Wolves will win more once KAT is back and I can see Washington winning more than us. I’d argue Detroit are the only worse team than us. And it’s debatable.

Hope you are right.

I just have bad feeling that Wizards will do fire sale, Pelicans flat out can't win games.
Kings are allegedly trading Bjelica ( and maybe Hield), Rockets could trade Tucker and Dipo...

This is great year to trade for stars and get better , ofc Magic , as usual are not shaped well to do anything but sell .

I heared on brodcasting team of OKC that Nets might be waiting for OKC to bought out Al Horford to sign him. So OKC is another team that won't win any games going forward.

But man, oh man, just imagine if you are Eastern conference contender and Nets just get Horford for nothing and add some wing defender like Ariza/RHJ/Roberson ...al for nothing

OKC will eventually trade or sit players. I don't think they will buy Horford out. I think they are trying to build his value to trade him. He is still under contract next season.
Houston might tank, they traded their pick this season, but it is top 4 protected, still unlikely they will keep it. OKC looking like gold on that pick.
Sacramento probably joins the tankers at some point. Just awful on defense. No chance.
Washington - Probably should trade Beal, then clearly join the race to the bottom.

Minnesota - i think they have to try to win to keep KAT happy. Their pick is top 3 protected so unlikely they keep it.
New Orleans - who knows. They are an injury away. That is looking like a weird team. They need to make some trades.

The Magic could pretty easily be a bottom 3 team, but it would require the front office to commit. And sooner rather than later, because other teams will join.
I realize that it is not advantageous statistically for teams to tank, but with all the teams fighting for the playoffs this year, and all the rest of the COVID related challenges, this is probably one of the best seasons to fight for the worst record.

Husky1 wrote:

pepe1991 wrote:

Man it will be tough to get at bottom 3

Na not at all. Wolves will win more once KAT is back and I can see Washington winning more than us. I’d argue Detroit are the only worse team than us. And it’s debatable.

Once the ping pong balls drop, I want to be top 5. Would very much prefer to be top 3, but I’ll settle for top 5 as I suspect some teams will value Mobley and Kuminga leaving us a chance still at Green.

So, can we get there?

Currently we are at #9.

Clearly Houston and Miami will get ahead of us = #7

New Orleans will only get better = #6

————————————————————————-

For me that is end the of the clear answers. Orlando needs to make some trades or make a commitment to the tank to get ahead of OKC. I want to see the impact KAT has on Minny before I declare them a threat. Washington could always trade Beal and tank themselves. The Sacramento defense is generationally bad. No one will catch Detroit.

We absolutely need to trade Fournier at a minimum. I’d also move Bamba if this FO is determined that Cliff is the HC.

jonbob17 wrote:OKC will eventually trade or sit players. I don't think they will buy Horford out. I think they are trying to build his value to trade him. He is still under contract next season.
Houston might tank, they traded their pick this season, but it is top 4 protected, still unlikely they will keep it. OKC looking like gold on that pick.
Sacramento probably joins the tankers at some point. Just awful on defense. No chance.
Washington - Probably should trade Beal, then clearly join the race to the bottom.

Minnesota - i think they have to try to win to keep KAT happy. Their pick is top 3 protected so unlikely they keep it.
New Orleans - who knows. They are an injury away. That is looking like a weird team. They need to make some trades.

The Magic could pretty easily be a bottom 3 team, but it would require the front office to commit. And sooner rather than later, because other teams will join.
I realize that it is not advantageous statistically for teams to tank, but with all the teams fighting for the playoffs this year, and all the rest of the COVID related challenges, this is probably one of the best seasons to fight for the worst record.

Bingo. The Magic have been close in these last 4 games. Weltman and Hammond are the crew to lean on injuries as a crutch for underperformance. I see them going the other way. I see them thinking we might grind this out to a play in game once we get MCW and Aminu back. But, if the Magic really wanted to, they could easily bottom out this season with one trade or giving Vucevic a fake injury.

A good, but depressing read tbh.

Knightro wrote:

Read on Twitter

A good, but depressing read tbh.

It's solid read but writer missed on other aspects of why Bamba is not playing more.
Crappy attitude, low energy, bad conditioning, lazy at practice or not even showing up for ones...

Also nba is moving away from "rim runners" and centers in general, also defensive minded center is no longer " must have" if you want to have good defense.

Jaxson Hayes showed much more upside last year than Bamba did in 3 years combined, yet fell off rotation because team went in other direction. Thon Maker is unsigned free agent in this moment. It happends.

Yesterday i tried to figure how many teams would even take Bamba and played him at all. My list stopped at potential 4 suitors, 0 teams where he would start. Pretty much outside maybe Detroit there is no active nba team that he would even compete for starting job.

jonbob17 wrote:OKC will eventually trade or sit players. I don't think they will buy Horford out. I think they are trying to build his value to trade him. He is still under contract next season.
Houston might tank, they traded their pick this season, but it is top 4 protected, still unlikely they will keep it. OKC looking like gold on that pick.
Sacramento probably joins the tankers at some point. Just awful on defense. No chance.
Washington - Probably should trade Beal, then clearly join the race to the bottom.

Minnesota - i think they have to try to win to keep KAT happy. Their pick is top 3 protected so unlikely they keep it.
New Orleans - who knows. They are an injury away. That is looking like a weird team. They need to make some trades.

The Magic could pretty easily be a bottom 3 team, but it would require the front office to commit. And sooner rather than later, because other teams will join.
I realize that it is not advantageous statistically for teams to tank, but with all the teams fighting for the playoffs this year, and all the rest of the COVID related challenges, this is probably one of the best seasons to fight for the worst record.

Horford's contract is just partially guaranteed for next year, that's why it's not outside relm of possiblility they just waive him.

pepe1991 wrote:

Horford's contract is just partially guaranteed for next year, that's why it's not outside relm of possiblility they just waive him.

He signed a 4 year deal the same offseason as Vuc, and it was similar in total dollars. So he has 2 more years left (after this one), but the last year isn't fully guaranteed.