SI Top 100 2021-22

[old skool]

In 2011 Dirk was almost 33 years old and at the end of his prime. So obviously no one would say the year after he was the best player in the game. Dirk wasn't in the MVP conversation in 2011 but he turned it up in the playoffs and had an incredible stretch during those playoffs. 2011 MVP voting was 1) Rose, 2) Dwight, 3) Lebron, 4) Kobe, 5) Durant and 6) Dirk. I don't remember people thinking Dirk and Mavs could replicate that again, it was a miracle run.

Dirk's ultimate prime was 2005-2008 and he was arguably the best player in the league at that time (along with Kobe and Nash).

Giannis is 27 years old and still technically may be reaching his prime so may not be as much of a stretch.

That's not the point lol. The point is that the best player on the championship team is not always the best player in the league just because he's the reigning champion's best player. In 2014 when the Spurs won, was Kawhi, Parker, or Duncan the best player in the league? Obviously not.

That's all I'm saying.

I agree with you.

The difference here is that Giannis was the MVP in 2019 and 2020 and then was the FMVP in 2021. So he was the best player in the league in the two years prior. He was also 4th MVP voting in 2021 as well. And have to correct myself, I thought Giannis was 27 but he's actually only 26.

Dirk was the MVP in 2007, but he wasn't really in the MVP conversation after that. In 2008 he was 11th in MVP voting, in 2009 he was 10th in MVP voting, in 2010 he was 7th in MVP voting and in 2011 he was 6th in MVP voting. By 2011 he turned 33 so he was viewed as reaching the end of his prime while at 26 Giannis is viewed as in his prime or even just entering his prime.

So I'm not putting Giannis #1 simply because he was the best player on the title team. It's because he literally won MVP the two seasons prior and is about to enter his prime being only 26 years old. I don't think Giannis has reached his peak yet.

When Lebron was 27/28 he won his first title with the Heat.

When MJ was 27 he won his first title with the Bulls.

If Giannis wasn't a true MVP caliber and this young and won MVP by being the best player on his team by default, I would be more inclined to agree with you on that.

Jordan was born in February 1963. When he was 27 the Bulls lost to the Pistons in the ECF.

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[Swag]

Kyrie @ 19 is ridiculous.


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[PistolPeteJR]

In 2011 Dirk was almost 33 years old and at the end of his prime. So obviously no one would say the year after he was the best player in the game. Dirk wasn't in the MVP conversation in 2011 but he turned it up in the playoffs and had an incredible stretch during those playoffs. 2011 MVP voting was 1) Rose, 2) Dwight, 3) Lebron, 4) Kobe, 5) Durant and 6) Dirk. I don't remember people thinking Dirk and Mavs could replicate that again, it was a miracle run.

Dirk's ultimate prime was 2005-2008 and he was arguably the best player in the league at that time (along with Kobe and Nash).

Giannis is 27 years old and still technically may be reaching his prime so may not be as much of a stretch.

That's not the point lol. The point is that the best player on the championship team is not always the best player in the league just because he's the reigning champion's best player. In 2014 when the Spurs won, was Kawhi, Parker, or Duncan the best player in the league? Obviously not.

That's all I'm saying.

I agree with you.

The difference here is that Giannis was the MVP in 2019 and 2020 and then was the FMVP in 2021. So he was the best player in the league in the two years prior. He was also 4th MVP voting in 2021 as well. And have to correct myself, I thought Giannis was 27 but he's actually only 26.

Dirk was the MVP in 2007, but he wasn't really in the MVP conversation after that. In 2008 he was 11th in MVP voting, in 2009 he was 10th in MVP voting, in 2010 he was 7th in MVP voting and in 2011 he was 6th in MVP voting. By 2011 he turned 33 so he was viewed as reaching the end of his prime while at 26 Giannis is viewed as in his prime or even just entering his prime.

So I'm not putting Giannis #1 simply because he was the best player on the title team. It's because he literally won MVP the two seasons prior and is about to enter his prime being only 26 years old. I don't think Giannis has reached his peak yet.

When Lebron was 27/28 he won his first title with the Heat.

When MJ was 27 he won his first title with the Bulls.

If Giannis wasn't a true MVP caliber and this young and won MVP by being the best player on his team by default, I would be more inclined to agree with you on that.

All I’m going to say is that MVP in no way means “best player in the league”. I hope I don’t need to break this one down lol…

[Pelly24]

Giannis is better at every single thing involved with defense (this remains half of basketball) Giannis has a significantly better handle, Giannis has a far superior post game high, mid and low, Giannis is better at passing, Giannis is better at rebounding on both ends, Giannis has far better footwork as he can both gather and finish both left or right or two footed better, Giannis is a better finisher around the basket left and right handed, etc etc etc. All we have here is a bunch of guys who have convinced themselves that a better jumpshot is everything.

The only thing Durant has done of note in the last three years that anyone can hang their hat on in a Giannis -Durant debate is that he was arguably better in a series he lost because he had a slightly higher PPG. This argument relies on ignoring every other thing that happened in those three years including 2 Giannis MVPs, 3 all NBA first teams, a DPOY, one of the greatest final series ever culminating in a ring, finals MVP and 50 point close out.

In closing we're relying on one series Durant lost were he played at peak levels and Giannis was maybe at C levels and ignoring all the above including him playing way above a level Durant is capable of in winning the finals. The argument entirely rests on him having a better jumpshot to crown him as better than Giannis. It's peak casual fan stuff.

Let me know when Durant wins any series without a superstar lead guard setting the table. Giannis won a title the first year he upgraded from Bledsoe to Holiday.

Whenever people talk about skills, it's clear that they're talking about offense. If we're talking about offensive skills, Giannis is leagues behind KD. People need to understand that Giannis literally just beat a team without any legit All-NBA players at this point. Giannis was literally about to lose this series I';m sorry lol. Like we can't just pretend this was just some normal year. This isn't even like the bubble. Literally all the best players were injured. Giannis literally got bounced by Jimmy Butler last year lol. Do we think something magical happened or is the answer that LeBron, AD, Kyrie, Harden, Murray, Kawhi and Anthony Davis were all injured, those preventing Giannis from facing a team that could beat him. He was by far and away the best player in the playoffs when he won the chip.

This is all arrant nonsense. The entire case for Durant being the best relies on him almost winning a series against Giannis. There is no case for Durant without Giannis' greatness and then it's still a theoretical one.

I was talking about Giannis being far and away the best player in the playoffs when he won the chip this year lol. After KD got injured, Giannis was all that was left. Giannis was not only the best player left, he also had roughly two all-star level guys on his team. I respect Giannis. No one else in the league combines his scoring ability with defense, maybe besides Embiid, who's only done it this year (and has superior shot-making ability, but regardless). I'm not even big on the whole KD>>>>Giannis thing. It's whatever. KD is also just kinda granted the BITW title every time LeBron is injured or something. If healthy, I think KD has less flaws then Giannis and would be in a better situation to win a series against any team, but I could see arguing that Giannis is better. One thing Giannis is not, though, is even close to as offensively skilled. KD has better crossovers, more creativity, more shot-making variety, league-best shooting, and he's a 50/40/90 guy/. KD would still be an all-star if he were 6'5" with his elite offensive skills. Giannis is so athletic that he literally can succeed by running past and dunking on people. Nothing wrong with that. That's what makes him GOAT-level in some ways. But KD is one of the most skilled offensive players to have ever picked up a basketball, and he's also a top 15 player ever lol.

He had a great second round series until he went 0-5 in overtime!

Wasn't the best player in any of the last three regular seasons or playoffs, wasn't even the best player on his own team over fat Harden until Harden's hammy went. But he scored a bunch in a losing series and won two cakewalk titles 4 years ago. Bizarre.

[_qubik]

The day the U.S. media(including talking heads) unanimously says a non-US player is the best player in the NBA will be the day pigs fly.

Sorry. I love Jokic as much as the next guy, but there is no way he is better than KD, Lebron, or Giannis. Not a single GM is picking him over these 3 guys if they had to put together a team for next season from scratch.

I don't even mean just Jokic. I don't think you'll ever hear a lot of talking heads ever say that Giannis is unquestionably the best player in the league. It's already like pulling teeth just to get some of them saying he's more valuable than current Lebron right now or at KD's level. Hell it's bad enough trying to get them to say that Jokic's pro career has already eclipsed guys like Melo's or that Giannis's has easily eclipsed A.I. and Melo's combined. It reminds me of boxing where some fans and boxers just have a problem saying that some foreign fighters are better than a lot of US born fighters and I don't know if its a cultural thing in regards to both sports or what. To me talent is talent and greatness is greatness period no matter where they're from.

I'm brazilian, I find it even funny US media regarding foreigner players. But Giannis is a polarizing player, he is a freak specimen, but he isnt over skilled, cant shoot, isnt a good passer or ball handler (when compared to Lebron and KD). Both guys are old, but they are more complete than Giannis and still very impactfull, KD is labeled as a top 2 in the league, can play both ends, and is almost unstoppable in any situation on offense. Lebron is a master mind, still more athletic than a lot of freaks, added so much to his game and can still get it done on defense when needed. Those dudes almost have no holes in their games, I would still take than over Giannis or Jokic.

Though, after those guys is pretty hard to rank guys ahead Jokic, Giannis and Luka, theres no guys their ages matching their productions.

[chrisab123]

Kyrie @ 19 is ridiculous.


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As in too high or too low? There's an unpredictability factor with him that makes him tough to rank. If you're talking about pure god given talent then he deserves higher. But if you're talking about how great he might be this year it might be the right spot. Then again...Kawhi is missing most of the year and still ranked where he is.

[UcanUwill]

I will go out of my way and say that list overall is really good. I disagree with some rankings, but its a good list.

[Soulyss]

I will go out of my way and say that list overall is really good. I disagree with some rankings, but its a good list.

I agree... a tiers approach is always better to something like this.

Top 3 (Tier 1) - Looks basically correct.
Next 10 (Tier 2) - You can argue Dame at 8 vs 11, or can "Robin AD" be a top 10 player if he can't be the lead dog on a team, etc... but basically correct.
Next 20-ish (tier 3) - You get more variation on this vs. that but overall.. still mostly accurate..

Outside of the top 50: total crap shoot year to year.... WGAF?

[ShazamDaShiznt]

These top 100 player lists make no sense, like what are we supposed to do with it??? I can watch a highlight reel of say Vince Carter top 100 dunks cause I don't care about the rankings, I care about the action. These lists make no sense like what is the criteria??? Is it something to motivate these guys to play harder like them 2K ratings that some players care about?

[jokeboy86]

I'll put one prediction out there. I think Zach Lavine becomes a top 20 player in the league this year.

[kuclas]

I'll put one prediction out there. I think Zach Lavine becomes a top 20 player in the league this year.

There isn’t much difference between a top 15-30 nba player. So lots of variables in season play for Lavine to be easily top 20 or top 30.

I say it’s much tougher to crack the top 5 nba players. Than the top 6-10/ are all interchangeable. Those are the elite of the elite. Especially if they can stay there consistently

[Saints14]

The thing that bugs me about this KD vs Giannis debate is that many people who put KD over Giannis do so because KD in the ECSF > Giannis in the ECSF, but ignore that Giannis in the FINALS was more dominant than KD was against the Bucks. It really seems like Giannis hit a gear we haven't seen him hit and that KD frankly never has as the postseason progressed. Sure maybe KD would have performed just as well or better against PHX if his foot was behind the line, and I don't necessarily blame anyone who'd rather have KD than Giannis next season, but that's a hypothetical and at some point you have to give the benefit of the doubt to the guy with one of the most decorated 3-year stretches in NBA history

[Pennebaker]

These top 100 player lists make no sense, like what are we supposed to do with it??? I can watch a highlight reel of say Vince Carter top 100 dunks cause I don't care about the rankings, I care about the action. These lists make no sense like what is the criteria??? Is it something to motivate these guys to play harder like them 2K ratings that some players care about?

Debate

[FreeThrowLine]

Working my way from 1 to 20 and the first one I strongly disagreed with was Paul George, he should be at least 10 spots back

[Pelly24]

I'll put one prediction out there. I think Zach Lavine becomes a top 20 player in the league this year.

There isn’t much difference between a top 15-30 nba player. So lots of variables in season play for Lavine to be easily top 20 or top 30.

I say it’s much tougher to crack the top 5 nba players. Than the top 6-10/ are all interchangeable. Those are the elite of the elite. Especially if they can stay there consistently

I actually think there kind of is between top 15 and top 30, really even between top 20 and top 30. How I've come to look at things is sort of like how high their floor and ceilings are, but more so the floor. In Zach Lavine's case, I think the main "issue" has generally been his bad defense and then relatively speaking, he's not really a good playmaker. When you put those things together, when he's not scoring, his impact drops to significantly below all-star level. But he was consistent as a scorer last year, but he was less consistent the years before. So I think for Zach to be a top 20 player, he'd need to maintain his scoring efficiency and volume while becoming at least a neutral defender. That I think would make him definitely top 20, or maybe just after. He'd probably be better than Bradley Beal. Then, if he were to become a good playmaker on top of that, he'd be in that top 12-15 range, maybe even top 10. But it's hard to be good at all those things while still being an elite scorer. In my top 10-15, if you're a very bad defender, you gotta be a transcendent/all-time great kind of offensive player. If you're merely an *elite* offensive player who is maybe a great scorer and a good passer/playmaker, but not an elite one, you gotta be a passable defender. If you're only a very good offensive player, then you gotta be a very good to great defender. So Trae Young is a very bad defender, but he's a very good if not elite scorer and he's an elite passer (so he's an elite/borderline transcendent offensive player soon), so to me he's top 15. Jimmy Butler is a very good offensive passer (solid scorer/very good playmaker) and an elite defender.

To me, someone like Beal is a mediocre defender but an excellent scorer and a mediocre passer. I think this reflects in his advanced stats often. Vuc is a very good offensive player but kind of a bad defender, and he's a big man so it hurts more, so to me he's closer to top 30. Beal is much better than him. Trae is even better than that, in my eyes.

But Zach can get to a really high ranking. His potential is really high because of his size/skills/athleticism.

[Pelly24]

The thing that bugs me about this KD vs Giannis debate is that many people who put KD over Giannis do so because KD in the ECSF > Giannis in the ECSF, but ignore that Giannis in the FINALS was more dominant than KD was against the Bucks. It really seems like Giannis hit a gear we haven't seen him hit and that KD frankly never has as the postseason progressed. Sure maybe KD would have performed just as well or better against PHX if his foot was behind the line, and I don't necessarily blame anyone who'd rather have KD than Giannis next season, but that's a hypothetical and at some point you have to give the benefit of the doubt to the guy with one of the most decorated 3-year stretches in NBA history

I think people look at these rankings in too concrete a fashion, as though there's a definite cutoff point for stuff when a lot of things don't happen in a vacuum. Giannis had a legendary run, but it's not necessarily comparable to Kevin Durant's, maybe besides the fact that KD was on a totally stacked team. The Suns are really a 2nd round team at best. They have two top 20 players (at best at this point) and everyone that could have seriously tested Giannis got screwed by injury. KD would literally run a train on the Suns and the nets with even one of KD or Harden beat them in 5 games, I'd bet. Maybe six. I don't think this is really a new gear for Giannis per se, but that's what people always do narratively with these championships. But yeah, when we saw KD against overmatched teams he was completely dominant and completely unstoppable in much the same way. FWIW, I never gave him much credit for that, either. LeBron's 2009 and 2015-2020 playoff runs were more impressive (than KDs') considering the circumstances. LeBron played against legit talent the whole way (Harden, Jokic/Murray, Jimmy and Bam). The Clippers screwed themselves, but they were gonna lose to the lakers regardless.

[Saints14]

The thing that bugs me about this KD vs Giannis debate is that many people who put KD over Giannis do so because KD in the ECSF > Giannis in the ECSF, but ignore that Giannis in the FINALS was more dominant than KD was against the Bucks. It really seems like Giannis hit a gear we haven't seen him hit and that KD frankly never has as the postseason progressed. Sure maybe KD would have performed just as well or better against PHX if his foot was behind the line, and I don't necessarily blame anyone who'd rather have KD than Giannis next season, but that's a hypothetical and at some point you have to give the benefit of the doubt to the guy with one of the most decorated 3-year stretches in NBA history

I think people look at these rankings in too concrete a fashion, as though there's a definite cutoff point for stuff when a lot of things don't happen in a vacuum. Giannis had a legendary run, but it's not necessarily comparable to Kevin Durant's, maybe besides the fact that KD was on a totally stacked team. The Suns are really a 2nd round team at best. They have two top 20 players (at best at this point) and everyone that could have seriously tested Giannis got screwed by injury. KD would literally run a train on the Suns and the nets with even one of KD or Harden beat them in 5 games, I'd bet. Maybe six. I don't think this is really a new gear for Giannis per se, but that's what people always do narratively with these championships. But yeah, when we saw KD against overmatched teams he was completely dominant and completely unstoppable in much the same way. FWIW, I never gave him much credit for that, either. LeBron's 2009 and 2015-2020 playoff runs were more impressive (than KDs') considering the circumstances. LeBron played against legit talent the whole way (Harden, Jokic/Murray, Jimmy and Bam). The Clippers screwed themselves, but they were gonna lose to the lakers regardless.

Yeah you're totally right. I'm not an asterisks guy and I think putting asterisks on any fairly won championship is wrong, but context is important and it's fair to acknowledge the good fortune the Bucks had along the way. I just think Giannis proved, in a way that nobody else other than LeBron and maybe Kawhi in this era has, that he can be THE guy to completely take over for a championship team, whereas with KD it's more projection

[Pelly24]

The thing that bugs me about this KD vs Giannis debate is that many people who put KD over Giannis do so because KD in the ECSF > Giannis in the ECSF, but ignore that Giannis in the FINALS was more dominant than KD was against the Bucks. It really seems like Giannis hit a gear we haven't seen him hit and that KD frankly never has as the postseason progressed. Sure maybe KD would have performed just as well or better against PHX if his foot was behind the line, and I don't necessarily blame anyone who'd rather have KD than Giannis next season, but that's a hypothetical and at some point you have to give the benefit of the doubt to the guy with one of the most decorated 3-year stretches in NBA history

I think people look at these rankings in too concrete a fashion, as though there's a definite cutoff point for stuff when a lot of things don't happen in a vacuum. Giannis had a legendary run, but it's not necessarily comparable to Kevin Durant's, maybe besides the fact that KD was on a totally stacked team. The Suns are really a 2nd round team at best. They have two top 20 players (at best at this point) and everyone that could have seriously tested Giannis got screwed by injury. KD would literally run a train on the Suns and the nets with even one of KD or Harden beat them in 5 games, I'd bet. Maybe six. I don't think this is really a new gear for Giannis per se, but that's what people always do narratively with these championships. But yeah, when we saw KD against overmatched teams he was completely dominant and completely unstoppable in much the same way. FWIW, I never gave him much credit for that, either. LeBron's 2009 and 2015-2020 playoff runs were more impressive (than KDs') considering the circumstances. LeBron played against legit talent the whole way (Harden, Jokic/Murray, Jimmy and Bam). The Clippers screwed themselves, but they were gonna lose to the lakers regardless.

Yeah you're totally right. I'm not an asterisks guy and I think putting asterisks on any fairly won championship is wrong, but context is important and it's fair to acknowledge the good fortune the Bucks had along the way. I just think Giannis proved, in a way that nobody else other than LeBron and maybe Kawhi in this era has, that he can be THE guy to completely take over for a championship team, whereas with KD it's more projection

Yeah I get that on a literal level. If we're looking at what people have actually done, that's true. But I've always projected more. I don't think there's much to that status of being "the guy" that can do a lot of that stuff. A lot of people can do it in a way if the circumstances are right. KD and Russ just happened to run into the GOAT regular season team and if they hadn't, they still would've run into peak LeBron James and prime Kyrie and shooting. KD could've beat the 2008-2010 lakers, maybe beaten the Celtics, probably beaten the 2009 magic, etc. But things just didn't lineup. Russ and him were injured at inopportune times. KD and Russ beating 2016 Spurs is more of a significant accomplishment than Giannis beating the injured nets, the stacked, but too young Hawks and the completely flukish suns. I don't think there's some quality that KD or even Russ needed to reach to be capable of winning championships; they just played much better teams and dealt with injuries when they didn't. For Kawhi, his run was legitimately LeBron like and he played elite players the whole way outside the first round. That said, Klay Thompson and KD got injured, and that made it so there was no doubt that the Raptors would win; at that point, they had by far the better team. And it honestly didn't seem like Kawhi was better than Steph at all during that series. It was popular to say that Kawhi was the league's best player afterwards, but I still thought Steph and probably KD were better (IMO, they are. I mean seriously, it's Stephen Curry, aha). But yeah, that's my spiel. I get where you're coming from though, that's not a bad take.

[Chanel Bomber]

I'm not the biggest Randle fan but him being #41 after making the All-NBA second team (even if it's a perception award) is utterly ridiculous.

What have Fox, Ingram, Shai or KAT proven to be ahead of him in these rankings?

Also KD @ #1 give me a break.

Doncic 11 spots ahead of Trae is also a head-scratcher.

[LoveTheNBA23]

I can definitely see it because Simmons is an elite defender while Westbrook is one the worst defender at his position.

Watch on YouTube

watch the tape.

I cant wait for this season to start.

I already did and I disagree with the title of the video, and a good RS game is not going to change my mind.

You can also watch the last playoffs game he played :

Watch on YouTube

You can't watch it and come to the conclusion that RW is a good defender.
If you focus only on him on defense, you'll notice he is a lazy and distracted defender : he often has bad positioning on the weakside, loses track of his man or the ball, doesn't always provide help when he should, very rarely boxes out, puts little pressure on the ball, calls for unnecessary switches leading to mismatches, gets blown by too often, plays terrible P&R defense.
And the worst part is his transition defense, the guy's one of the fastest dude in the league yet very often he jogs back and is the last player back, that's not excusable especially in the playoffs.

The thing with RW is that he could be a good defender, but rarely wants to be one. To be fair it is mostly a problem of effort and energy. So yeah, he can look good sometimes thanks to his athletic abilities but very often he looks really bad on the defensive end.

Westbrook is an elite on ball defender. His issue has always been off ball either due to lack of focus, scheme, coaching or a combination of all those aspects. I think Vogel will bring the best out of him on that end.

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