NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2023-24 (Part 5: So who's winning MVP? )

[Peregrine01]

No matter what configuration, lineup changes or what have you, the Nuggets still look like a lottery team without Jokic. And they're a contender (perhaps even favorites) with him. Crazy.

[AleksandarN]

No matter what configuration, lineup changes or what have you, the Nuggets still look like a lottery team without Jokic. And they're a contender (perhaps even favorites) with him. Crazy.

They need to trade whatever picks they can and cap filler(RJ and Zeke) for Caruso this offseason. Caruso would be the perfect backup guard for Denver

[Peregrine01]

No matter what configuration, lineup changes or what have you, the Nuggets still look like a lottery team without Jokic. And they're a contender (perhaps even favorites) with him. Crazy.

They need to trade whatever picks they can and cap filler(RJ and Zeke) for Caruso this offseason. Caruso would be the perfect backup guard for Denver

I can think of a few things now to make their bench rotation better - stop playing Reggie Jackson.

[QPR]

Their roster is built for the playoffs, where rotations are shortened.

[AleksandarN]

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[SweaterBae]

Their roster is built for the playoffs, where rotations are shortened.

Cop out way of saying they refused to spend and have a trash bench.

[Manimal]

Their roster is built for the playoffs, where rotations are shortened.

Cop out way of saying they refused to spend and have a trash bench.

Unfair to say they refused to spend, because they just simply didn't have the ability to spend. You can definitely argue that using the MLE to re-sign Reggie Jackson was a poor decision and it should've been used elsewhere. But once Bruce decided to leave, securing a backup PG that can score/create a bit (especially with Murray's poor health in recent seasons) became priority number one. Beyond Reggie, the only other PG options that were available for that price were guys like Derrick Rose, Dennis Smith Jr, and Patrick Beverley. So not exactly a big missed opportunity there anyway. And even looking at options beyond PG, there really wasn't much out there that they could've gotten for the exceptions they had to work with.

The Nuggets were, and still are, in a difficult position as far as filling out their bench with quality players. Not a lot you can do when all you have to spend in free agency is a 5 mill taxpayer MLE. Even worse when your largest tradeable contract (beyond the starting 5) is a 4 million dollar deal. They also don't have a big chest of draft picks to trade, though they're in a better position than a lot of other contenders. They've done fairly well the past couple years with the late 1st round draft picks they have made (Braun, Watson, Strawther) to help fill out the roster, but it still takes some time (plus luck) for those guys to become true contributors.

On the brightside the starting 5 is so well constructed and pretty well locked in long term, so the hard part is out of the way at least. But unless Denver suddenly turns into the kind of destination quality vets want to sign minimum deals with to ring chase with...it's going to be a difficult task to continually build out the bench every season with the limited resources they have at their disposal.

[Bob8]

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What do you think happens with Jokic's on/off numbers, if Denver would have had decent backup C instead of DAJ?

Not having decent replacement C might be the biggest Denver's problem in the playoffs, if everyone is healthy of course.

Celtics having just absurd roster, which makes impossible for Tatum to have good on/off. Obsession with +/- is just unexplainable to me. It's really easy to predict,

- Great starting lineup, great on court +/-.
- Bad replacement player, great on/off.

[Exp0sed]

Their roster is built for the playoffs, where rotations are shortened.

Cop out way of saying they refused to spend and have a trash bench.

Unfair to say they refused to spend, because they just simply didn't have the ability to spend.

they should have traded for Micic, a 2nd rounder would have done the trick

[AleksandarN]

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What do you think happens with Jokic's on/off numbers, if Denver would have had decent backup C instead of DAJ?

Not having decent replacement C might be the biggest Denver's problem in the playoffs, if everyone is healthy of course.

Celtics having just absurd roster, which makes impossible for Tatum to have good on/off. Obsession with +/- is just unexplainable to me. It's really easy to predict,

- Great starting lineup, great on court +/-.
- Bad replacement player, great on/off.

If only Jokic had other metrics than just this one. This is just An example. I provided others before in this and the previous thread.

[AleksandarN]

Cop out way of saying they refused to spend and have a trash bench.

Unfair to say they refused to spend, because they just simply didn't have the ability to spend.

they should have traded for Micic, a 2nd rounder would have done the trick

He is even worse defensively than RJ. I doubt Malone wanted him

[Exp0sed]

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What do you think happens with Jokic's on/off numbers, if Denver would have had decent backup C instead of DAJ?

Not having decent replacement C might be the biggest Denver's problem in the playoffs, if everyone is healthy of course.

Celtics having just absurd roster, which makes impossible for Tatum to have good on/off. Obsession with +/- is just unexplainable to me. It's really easy to predict,

- Great starting lineup, great on court +/-.
- Bad replacement player, great on/off.

as someone who watched most Nuggets games in the past few seasons, my unbiased opinion\guess would be - less dramatic than u think. DAJ is washed (and has been for a while) but he's not the core issue in the bench units, plus he can still rim protect (a bit), rebound well and can still finish inside at a passable level

obviously if you'd bring a guy like Hartenstien off the bench, Denver's bench unit would be better than it is, will get outscored less and thus the on\off gap would def get smaller. question is - how much smaller?

Nuggets have been around 20 pts gap in the Jokic vs. non Jokic mins for three straight seasons
how much do you think that changes if you replace DAJ with idk..Plumlee?

it wouldn't make that much of a difference but yes, it'll go from +20 to +17 haha

fwiw, DAJ mostly gets DNP's he only plays occasionally. it's mostly AG playing small ball center. do u think AG is that bad as backup C?


edit: to be clear, i'm not a big advocate of on\off as you well know. there's alot of things that can possibly skew it, it's def not the end all be all. Jokic is the Nuggets, most of these guys low-key suck

that is, they have some good and even great skills like MPJ's shooting or AG attacking the tim but they're a group of incredibly poor decision makers. if u let MPJ, AG, Reggie, Watson, Braun (even Murray) added responsibility - they'd f it up, they need their maestro for the synergetic effect and we can see that very clearly everytime he goes to the bench. literally every time, it's just bananas
it's not about DAJ or having a better backup C

u put MPJ on the Wizards he'd be on shaqtin a fool instead of Poole, you give AG a prominent offensive role and ur team will suck
that's the main reason those guys look lost without Jokic - they're just not that good in those roles

but with Jokic making the decisions for everyone and defining the roles for them, picking the spots and setting them up - they're a very good and effective players

that's not on\off that's just watching the games and understanding basketball

[Bob8]

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What do you think happens with Jokic's on/off numbers, if Denver would have had decent backup C instead of DAJ?

Not having decent replacement C might be the biggest Denver's problem in the playoffs, if everyone is healthy of course.

Celtics having just absurd roster, which makes impossible for Tatum to have good on/off. Obsession with +/- is just unexplainable to me. It's really easy to predict,

- Great starting lineup, great on court +/-.
- Bad replacement player, great on/off.

as someone who watched most Nuggets games in the past few seasons, my unbiased opinion\guess would be - less dramatic than u think. DAJ is washed (and has been for a while) but he's not the core issue in the bench units, plus he can still rim protect (a bit), rebound well and can still finish inside at a passable level

obviously if you'd bring a guy like Hartenstien off the bench, Denver's bench unit would be better than it is, will get outscored less and thus the on\off gap would def get smaller. question is - how much smaller?

Nuggets have been around 20 pts gap in the Jokic vs. non Jokic mins for three straight seasons
how much do you think that changes if you replace DAJ with idk..Plumlee?

it wouldn't make that much of a difference but yes, it'll go from +20 to +17 haha

fwiw, DAJ mostly gets DNP's he only plays occasionally. it's mostly AG playing small ball center. do u think AG is that bad as backup C?

He played 36 games.

The whole Denver bench is awful, one of the reasons is that Denver is playing massive minutes with starting lineup, while Dallas is having 1 of the Luka/Kyrie always on the court. I would guess that difference in on/off would be much bigger for Luka and Kyrie, if they have been playing the whole game together.

Denver's approach is playing best 5 as much as possible together and somehow survive bench minutes. It works, if they're all healthy, because of great construction of starting unit. On/off is ballooned because of that.
They had extremely easy path to win title last year. I doubt it will work like that this year.

[Exp0sed]

He played 36 games.

The whole Denver bench is awful, one of the reasons is that Denver is playing massive minutes with starting lineup, while Dallas is having 1 of the Luka/Kyrie always on the court. I would guess that difference in on/off would be much bigger for Luka and Kyrie, if they have been playing the whole game together.

Denver's approach is playing best 5 as much as possible together and somehow survive bench minutes. It works, if they're all healthy, because of great construction of starting unit. On/off is ballooned because of that.

I edited my previous post and added a paragraph, plz read that too


36 games is less than half the games and he played just a few mins in some of those, he is not the Nuggets main backup for Center (that's AG an Nnaji but the latter is always hurt and that's when DAJ usually plays) and as I said - he isn't the main issue either

as for your post:
idk what "massive minutes with the starting lineup" means
5 man lineups are one thing and playing the stars together is another

Murray is injured now, but Denver does the same as Kidd with Luka\Kyrie as Malone does with Jokic\Murray, one of them is on the floor at all times

Luka is playing 37.5 mpg, he'd share most of his PT with Kyrie either way, even if we assume those in 10 mins he doesn't play - Kyrie is always on the floor, that would still mean Kyrie plays 24 out of his 34 mpg with Luka..

that's probably about the same for Jamal as well

edit: i mean, ur acting like they play 5 bench guys together that's simply not the case
Jamal plays a bunch of his mins leading the bench unit taking the #1 role (same as Kyrie without Luka) and Jokic himself comes back to play with the scrubs in almost every game, whereas MPJ and AG only come back a bit later

they're getting extra rest while Jokic is carrying the Campazzos and Justin Holidays of the world

He impacts the game in so many ways Luka simply does not..
they are comparable as passers and scorers (with Luka having the edge in volume scoring and Jokic in efficiency)
but he's also one of the premier rebounders in the league, an elite and willing screener whose in the top 5 in screen assists and a much better defender. he's just a big man doing both big and guard things

that's not a knock on Luka at all

Luka mainly does 3 things on the court: he scores, playmakes and rebounds and he does all these things incredibly well but that's where his impact ends. when he's not scoring, passing or rebounding - he's not contributing much to winning and Jokic does

the eye test, all the metrics (not just +- or on\off) confirm it and the proof is in the pudding, as we all saw during last year's run
just how much the total package that is the Joker - lead to team wins

[Dirk]

The one game we needed the MVP to win and he can't pull it off. Smh.

[Bob8]

He played 36 games.

The whole Denver bench is awful, one of the reasons is that Denver is playing massive minutes with starting lineup, while Dallas is having 1 of the Luka/Kyrie always on the court. I would guess that difference in on/off would be much bigger for Luka and Kyrie, if they have been playing the whole game together.

Denver's approach is playing best 5 as much as possible together and somehow survive bench minutes. It works, if they're all healthy, because of great construction of starting unit. On/off is ballooned because of that.

I edited my previous post and added a paragraph, plz read that too


36 games is less than half the games and he played just a few mins in some of those, he is not the Nuggets main backup for Center (that's AG an Nnaji but the latter is always hurt and that's when DAJ usually plays) and as I said - he isn't the main issue either

as for your post:
idk what "massive minutes with the starting lineup" means
5 man lineups are one thing and playing the stars together is another

Murray is injured now, but Denver does the same as Kidd with Luka\Kyrie as Malone does with Jokic\Murray, one of them is on the floor at all times

Luka is playing 37.5 mpg, he'd share most of his PT with Kyrie either way, even if we assume those in 10 mins he doesn't play - Kyrie is always on the floor, that would still mean Kyrie plays 24 out of his 34 mpg with Luka..

that's probably about the same for Jamal as well

edit: i mean, ur acting like they play 5 bench guys together that's simply not the case
Jamal plays a bunch of his mins leading the bench unit taking the #1 role (same as Kyrie without Luka) and Jokic himself comes back to play with the scrubs in almost every game, whereas MPJ and AG only come back a bit later

they're getting extra rest while Jokic is carrying the Campazzos and Justin Holidays of the world

He impacts the game in so many ways Luka simply does not..
they are comparable as passers and scorers (with Luka having the edge in volume scoring and Jokic in efficiency)
but he's also one of the premier rebounders in the league, an elite and willing screener whose in the top 5 in screen assists and a much better defender. he's just a big man doing both big and guard things

that's not a knock on Luka at all

Luka mainly does 3 things on the court: he scores, playmakes and rebounds and he does all these things incredibly well but that's where his impact ends. when he's not scoring, passing or rebounding - he's not contributing much to winning and Jokic does

the eye test, all the metrics (not just +- or on\off) confirm it and the proof is in the pudding, as we all saw during last year's run
just how much the total package that is the Joker - lead to team wins

Look, Murray has missed 20+ games and Denver still has the most used lineup in the Nba with 895 minutes. Second most used lineup is OKC's with 782 minutes although they have played 16 more games together. So yes, Malone is playing his starting lineup far the most together. And furthermore, Denver's second most used lineup is 10th most used lineup in Nba, with 442 minutes. Mavs on the other hand, 141 minutes.

[AleksandarN]

Thank goodness he isn’t

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[Crunch 99]

he's (Jokic) also one of the premier rebounders in the league, an elite and willing screener whose in the top 5 in screen assists and a much better defender. he's just a big man doing both big and guard things.

Luka mainly does 3 things on the court: he scores, playmakes and rebounds and he does all these things incredibly well but that's where his impact ends. when he's not scoring, passing or rebounding - he's not contributing much to winning and Jokic does

the eye test, all the metrics (not just +- or on\off) confirm it and the proof is in the pudding, as we all saw during last year's run
just how much the total package that is the Joker - lead to team wins

I am all for Jokic winning the MVP, but this statement has me scratching my head. I agree that Jokic is a better screener, but the only time Luka or Jokic are not scoring, passing or rebounding is when they DNP.

Edit: My post sucks. Please ignore.

[Cubbies2120]

when he's (Luka's) not scoring, passing or rebounding - he's not contributing much to winning and Jokic does.

I am all for Jokic winning the MVP, but this statement has me scratching my head. So Jokic contributes to winning when he's not scoring, passing or rebounding? I am going to go get my second cup of coffee, come back and see whether the statement makes any more sense the second time I read it.

On another note, the only time Luka or Jokic are not scoring, passing or rebounding is when they DNP.

Next time you watch the Nuggets and Mavs play, watch for what each does when they don't have the ball.

Jokic is screening, re-screening, re-screening again, setting back-screens, commanding where players should go while doing this. Literally orchestrates the offense without the ball in his hand. That's a huge underrated part of his game - he creates a lot of space for his teammates to operate, pretty much every single play. He's 3rd in the league in screen assists.

[Crunch 99]

when he's (Luka's) not scoring, passing or rebounding - he's not contributing much to winning and Jokic does.

I am all for Jokic winning the MVP, but this statement has me scratching my head. So Jokic contributes to winning when he's not scoring, passing or rebounding? I am going to go get my second cup of coffee, come back and see whether the statement makes any more sense the second time I read it.

On another note, the only time Luka or Jokic are not scoring, passing or rebounding is when they DNP.

Next time you watch the Nuggets and Mavs play, watch for what each does when they don't have the ball.

Jokic is screening, re-screening, re-screening again, setting back-screens, commanding where players should go while doing this. Literally orchestrates the offense without the ball in his hand. That's a huge underrated part of his game - he creates a lot of space for his teammates to operate, pretty much every single play. He's 3rd in the league in screen assists.

Yes, I was just editing my post to quote more of ExpOsed's post and recgonize his points that Jokic is doing a lot of screening when he isn't scoring, passing or rebounding, as well as defending. I shouldn't have posted before I woke up and finished my first cup of coffee. LoL.