PG - Knicks fooled easily by Magic

[god shammgod]

we might just be learning that unless you draft a few of your top players you face a really tough team winning it all. especially nowadays.

it used to be that young teams needed to wait until they were in their primes to have a chance at winning. but more than ever this year it seems that younger, athletic teams are thriving and older teams, some who should theoretically be in their prime, are having a harder time with the speed of the game. okc, houston, detroit, san antonio should have too many young guys to be this good but it doesn't seem to matter anymore.

It has pretty much always been that way. Drafting quality or good players is almost a necessity. Knicks havent drafted anyone that has stuck since Deuce which puts us at a disdvantage. We make up for it somewhat with signing some players on cheaper deals (Brunson). We missed the defensive energy of OG and Deuce, but even when they play we still look slow at times. But yea, thats why its worthwhile to try to develop some of these young guys. Not expecting stars, but if they could at least give some solid min with some energy it can help. We def still have other issues so that wont solve it all.

yes but i'm not just talking about the need to draft homegrown talent. look at the ages of some of these teams best players and how well those teams are doing -

cade 24, duren 22,
segun 23, amen 22
chet 23, jalen will 24
wemby 21, castle 21, vassel 25

it's different now

[god shammgod]

A lot of complaining in here, myself included, but our next two games are against high school squads so I'm assuming all will be forgotten.

yep

If we lose these next two do you think they fire Mike brown??!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

no. he'll get some more time. if christmas rolls around and we don't look very different i think it'll be a wrap.

[JayTWill]

Last season on this day the Knicks bench was Sims, Payne, Dadiet and Kolek, and Mitch was out. The east was also tougher. So although the team was shaky last year, the coach was doing more with much less at this point.

Today they were without 1 starter in OG, another starter in Mitch plays limited minutes and Shamet played 3 minutes as a starter. Brunson, Clarkson, Hart, Mikal and KAT basically played starters minutes which is a worse 5 man unit than last year at this time. The lower minute guys were Mitch, Yabu, Diawara and Kolek. Mitch is better than lower minute guys from last year but that's it.

I'd rather have last year's group with OG at this time. It's too early for me to say how tough the east is at this point. No one knew the Cavs would sustain as the top team in the East or the Pistons would jump up near the Knicks level at this point last year.

Knicks were 6-2 without OG last season, the coach was able to win without him. Mitch played limited minutes last season too and we only had him for 17 reg season games.

The team was supposedly going to take a huge leap this season without being held back by the previous coach. Why are the other East teams much better but not us?

The win against Pacer's without Turner was the only win against an above .500 team (Edit - Two teams - Houston without Sengun, Smith and FVV) last year without OG and I was just comparing the lineups you mentioned at this day. You wouldn't rather have the lineup with OG?

I never said this team would take a huge leap this season. I have always had issues with the roster construction. I definitely had my issues with the previous coach but I never said he was the source of all the problems. I was the weirdo in the Yabu celebration thread asking how does he help solve the issues of the roster construction.

Some other teams may have taken some leaps because they had much more room to grow and have more assets to improve their teams. That is the issue with trading all your young players and picks for guys who are all around the age of 29, 30 now. Not everyone is Lebron, KD or Curry and play some extremely high level into their 30's and even their peak impact years may have been around age 25 to 28. Our core players have likely peaked and some of them have already begun trending downwards.

[spree8]

The hypocrisy of asking for patience now after making the game threads toxic after every game in what happened to be our best season in decades

Now this is some serious revisionist history. It was the same usual suspects who made the game threads toxic after every game last year lol… all the KAT, Mikal, bench and kids haters.. like you. Trying to act like it was all the anti-Thibs crowd (who were correct and that’s why he was fired) and now it’s hypocritical they’re complaining about the anti-Brown crowd is disingenuous to say the least.

Feels a little early to spike the football about firing Thibs being the right decision. This front office gave big money to Evan Fournier once upon a time and had to use picks to get out of other bad contracts they had. Not sure pointing to them doing something as it being correct decision. But using your logic, why aren’t Payne, Precious, and Wright back with the team if the front office didn't think that last years bench was bad? Those guys are now either not rotation players or out of league. Mikal is clearly playing a lot better than last year but still isn’t the defender that we expected to get when we traded for him. Thibs was obviously wrong about playing 8 man rotations last year but the “kids” still aren’t playing. Does that make Mike Brown a “kid hater” too”

So because the FO signed Fournier they were wrong to fire Thibs?

Brown has Deuce, Jordan, Hart and Yabu to play ahead of the kids off the bench and still plays Kolek, Mo, and Huk some.. even Jemison suited up. Thibs was running 7 man rotations at this point last season man, cmon now.

Cam isn’t back because we signed Jordan. Delon didn’t come back because we signed Brogdon. Precious didn’t come back because they signed Yabu. All upgrades or so they thought. Plus we added new draftees and there’s a salary cap/2nd apron we’re at so after Brogdon went down we kept Mo and Shamet instead of bringing back Delon. Smarter move considering we already have Jalen, Deuce, Jordan, Kolek, Mikal, Shamet, at pg/sg…

[HEZI]

This makes no sense lol.. we suck? That’s news to me. I see it as growing pains and the learning process.. typical with a new coach 18% into the season.

Believing “we suck” and cheering it/laughing about it kinda exposes you as a fake fan no? .. congrats

Growing pains?

You claimed if the previous coach made those adjustments it would bring instant success. There was no room for growing pains last year, it was the team was being held back. Now all of a sudden there are growing pains and we need more time. Clear double standard that’s why I don’t take you seriously. I guess only the real fans were the toxic ones during our best season in decades You keep exposing yourself with your hypocrisy

What are you talking about? You were extremely toxic last season with your hate of the players, bench, and kids lol. How have you never heard of a learning curve, that’s ridiculous. It’s 15 games and you n the usual suspects are declaring the season over. This is so unhinged it’s comical. Do you man, but I’ll make sure to pull these receipts of the tiny toxic club members come playoff time

I was actually right that the biggest issues were roster related and not coaching related and your own coach is proving me right The same issues with the roster are there that’s why we are struggling but go ahead and put your little rose colored glasses on and pretend everything is fine

[Gravy]

A lot of complaining in here, myself included, but our next two games are against high school squads so I'm assuming all will be forgotten.

If we beat these g-leaguers then Mike Brown is the goat.

If we lose its cause no OG, its early, learning new offense, Mitch minutes restriction, experiments, the east is crazy goood now..etc

[Capn'O]

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i think it's time guys, bring mentality back!!!!!!!!

The "denied 6-7x" kinda loses the plot. Wright, Kidd, Donovan, etc. were never really available. The only guy that was actually available who they seemed to take seriously was Jenkins and look how the Grizzlies look without him. I think he was a good choice. Also available:

Mike Malone: Recent champion. Always overachieved with his squads
Mike Bud: Recent Champion. Spurs tree. Winning track record with MIL and ATL
Frank Vogel: Recent Champion. Winning track record with LAL and IND. Forgettable stint with a forgettable Magic team.
Sam Cassell: Generally considered the best assistant in the league and well in line for a gig. Great rapport with players. Winning track record in playing and coaching days.
Johnnie Bryant: Former in house guy. Xs and Os wizard. Great rapport with our players. Ready for the move to the big time?

Like, all of these guys have their drawbacks but afaik we didn't even interview ANY of them. What??? I don't care what anyone says, that's a solid candidate list and we ignored it. I honestly think they wanted Brown all along and put up this facade with guys who weren't even available to say "look, we tried." And that, in my view, is a lot worse than the "rejected" narrative.

[god shammgod]

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i think it's time guys, bring mentality back!!!!!!!!

The "denied 6-7x kinda loses the plot. Wright, Kidd, Donovan, etc. were never really available. The only guy that was actually available who they seemed to take seriously was Jenkins and look how the Grizzlies look without him. I think he was a good choice. Also available:

Mike Malone: Recent champion. Always overachieved with his squads
Mike Bud: Recent Champion. Spurs tree. Winning track record with MIL and ATL
Frank Vogel: Recent Champion. Winning track record with LAL and IND. Forgettable stint with a forgettable Magic team.
Sam Cassell: Generally considered the best assistant in the league and well in line for a gig. Great rapport with players. Winning track record in playing and coaching days.
Johnnie Bryant: Former in house guy. Xs and Os wizard. Great rapport with our players. Ready for the move to the big time?

Like, all of these guys have their drawbacks but afaik we didn't even interview ANY of them. What??? I don't care what anyone says, that's a solid candidate list and we ignored it. I honestly think they wanted Brown all along and put up this facade with guys who weren't even available to say "look, we tried." And that, in my view, is a lot worse than the "rejected" narrative.

are you looking for sense within a mentality post ?

malone is too much like thibs to get the job. vogel and bud have sort of fizzled out of late. cassell is the most interesting to me on that list but i don't think they were ever gonna hire a rookie head coach. but you're right, most of the search consisted of asking teams to talk to coaches who they had no reason to believe were available. maybe it was all just for appearances. it made them look crazy by the way. good job

[spree8]

we might just be learning that unless you draft a few of your top players you face a really tough team winning it all. especially nowadays.

it used to be that young teams needed to wait until they were in their primes to have a chance at winning. but more than ever this year it seems that younger, athletic teams are thriving and older teams, some who should theoretically be in their prime, are having a harder time with the speed of the game. okc, houston, detroit, san antonio should have too many young guys to be this good but it doesn't seem to matter anymore.

It has pretty much always been that way. Drafting quality or good players is almost a necessity. Knicks havent drafted anyone that has stuck since Deuce which puts us at a disdvantage. We make up for it somewhat with signing some players on cheaper deals (Brunson). We missed the defensive energy of OG and Deuce, but even when they play we still look slow at times. But yea, thats why its worthwhile to try to develop some of these young guys. Not expecting stars, but if they could at least give some solid min with some energy it can help. We def still have other issues so that wont solve it all.

yes but i'm not just talking about the need to draft homegrown talent. look at the ages of some of these teams best players and how well those teams are doing -

cade 24, duren 22,
segun 23, amen 22
chet 23, jalen will 24
wemby 21, castle 21, vassel 25

it's different now

I been sayin since 2002 when we passed up Amare for Nene and traded for McDyess, to fully rebuild thru the draft. Year in and year out it never happens. Leon is just another page in the book.. it’s always been the best way to build, sure now more so than ever, but it really has always been the case..

[prophet_of_rage]

There is no magic bullet. There is no one quick fix. The Knicks will win a lot of games but they have the same weaknesses they had last year.

The magic bullet was not expanding thr rotation. It was not firing Thibs. It waa not demoting Hart. It was not getting rid of Cam Payne. Assembling the Wildcats was not the magic bullet. Neither was getting rid of Randle. Those are sales tacticd to sell hope not win a championship.

The Knicks are a small team with weak defenders at the point and power forward. That means a 1-4/5 pick and roll will always kill us and if the other team has a 5 that can shoot we're hooped.

The Magic are strong everywhere we are weak. The Bucks are strong where we are weak.
Detroit can go toe to toe
Toronto may be able to go toe to toe
Cleveland can go toe to toe.

Accept us as a good team with flaws and not some automatic world beater or the door mat of the league.



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[Capn'O]

Read on Twitter

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i think it's time guys, bring mentality back!!!!!!!!

The "denied 6-7x kinda loses the plot. Wright, Kidd, Donovan, etc. were never really available. The only guy that was actually available who they seemed to take seriously was Jenkins and look how the Grizzlies look without him. I think he was a good choice. Also available:

Mike Malone: Recent champion. Always overachieved with his squads
Mike Bud: Recent Champion. Spurs tree. Winning track record with MIL and ATL
Frank Vogel: Recent Champion. Winning track record with LAL and IND. Forgettable stint with a forgettable Magic team.
Sam Cassell: Generally considered the best assistant in the league and well in line for a gig. Great rapport with players. Winning track record in playing and coaching days.
Johnnie Bryant: Former in house guy. Xs and Os wizard. Great rapport with our players. Ready for the move to the big time?

Like, all of these guys have their drawbacks but afaik we didn't even interview ANY of them. What??? I don't care what anyone says, that's a solid candidate list and we ignored it. I honestly think they wanted Brown all along and put up this facade with guys who weren't even available to say "look, we tried." And that, in my view, is a lot worse than the "rejected" narrative.

are you looking for sense within a mentality post ?

malone is too much like thibs to get the job. vogel and bud have sort of fizzled out of late. cassell is the most interesting to me on that list but i don't think they were ever gonna hire a rookie head coach. but you're right, most of the search consisted of asking teams to talk to coaches who they had no reason to believe were available. maybe it was all just for appearances. it made them look crazy by the way. good job

No but I've seen that repeated here a lot.

It was completely inexplicable. But if their thought was - it will look ridiculous if we just up and fired Thibs for Mike Brown - maybe they should have stopped and considered why that would look ridiculous.

[TheGreenArrow]

we might just be learning that unless you draft a few of your top players you face a really tough team winning it all. especially nowadays.

it used to be that young teams needed to wait until they were in their primes to have a chance at winning. but more than ever this year it seems that younger, athletic teams are thriving and older teams, some who should theoretically be in their prime, are having a harder time with the speed of the game. okc, houston, detroit, san antonio should have too many young guys to be this good but it doesn't seem to matter anymore.

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[jvsimonetti0514]

we might just be learning that unless you draft a few of your top players you face a really tough team winning it all. especially nowadays.

it used to be that young teams needed to wait until they were in their primes to have a chance at winning. but more than ever this year it seems that younger, athletic teams are thriving and older teams, some who should theoretically be in their prime, are having a harder time with the speed of the game. okc, houston, detroit, san antonio should have too many young guys to be this good but it doesn't seem to matter anymore.

It has pretty much always been that way. Drafting quality or good players is almost a necessity. Knicks havent drafted anyone that has stuck since Deuce which puts us at a disdvantage. We make up for it somewhat with signing some players on cheaper deals (Brunson). We missed the defensive energy of OG and Deuce, but even when they play we still look slow at times. But yea, thats why its worthwhile to try to develop some of these young guys. Not expecting stars, but if they could at least give some solid min with some energy it can help. We def still have other issues so that wont solve it all.

yes but i'm not just talking about the need to draft homegrown talent. look at the ages of some of these teams best players and how well those teams are doing -

cade 24, duren 22,
segun 23, amen 22
chet 23, jalen will 24
wemby 21, castle 21, vassel 25

it's different now

Could it be that a players lateral quickness declines quicker than we realized? Or at least before what we consider athletic primes? Or has NBA trainers are helping players reach their peaks sooner? There’s just so much off ball movement in the half court now that it’s more important than ever. I think Mikal is a perfect example of this. He should probably be at his peak as a defender and he’s no where close to how good Dyson Daniels or Amen is defensively. We’re like 5 years removed from being a defensive player of the year candidate and he’s already declining on that end.

[god shammgod]

we might just be learning that unless you draft a few of your top players you face a really tough team winning it all. especially nowadays.

it used to be that young teams needed to wait until they were in their primes to have a chance at winning. but more than ever this year it seems that younger, athletic teams are thriving and older teams, some who should theoretically be in their prime, are having a harder time with the speed of the game. okc, houston, detroit, san antonio should have too many young guys to be this good but it doesn't seem to matter anymore.

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yep. but it's beyond that we didn't draft them. they're old compared to these teams. mcbride is our youngest guy we play at 25. mitch is 27 now. 27-30 used to be the age where players needed to be to contend. this was their prime. not so sure anymore. denver is the only contender that has guys in the traditional age range to be one. everyone else is younger.

[god shammgod]

It has pretty much always been that way. Drafting quality or good players is almost a necessity. Knicks havent drafted anyone that has stuck since Deuce which puts us at a disdvantage. We make up for it somewhat with signing some players on cheaper deals (Brunson). We missed the defensive energy of OG and Deuce, but even when they play we still look slow at times. But yea, thats why its worthwhile to try to develop some of these young guys. Not expecting stars, but if they could at least give some solid min with some energy it can help. We def still have other issues so that wont solve it all.

yes but i'm not just talking about the need to draft homegrown talent. look at the ages of some of these teams best players and how well those teams are doing -

cade 24, duren 22,
segun 23, amen 22
chet 23, jalen will 24
wemby 21, castle 21, vassel 25

it's different now

Could it be that a players lateral quickness declines quicker than we realized? Or at least before what we consider athletic primes? Or has NBA trainers are helping players reach their peaks sooner? There’s just so much off ball movement in the half court now that it’s more important than ever. I think Mikal is a perfect example of this. He should probably be at his peak as a defender and he’s no where close to how good Dyson Daniels or Amen is defensively. We’re like 5 years removed from being a defensive player of the year candidate and he’s already declining on that end.

it could be. most guys are faster when they're younger than what is supposed to be their prime ages. and it seems the game has changed in a way now where those young guys have such an advantage.

[robillionaire]

A lot of complaining in here, myself included, but our next two games are against high school squads so I'm assuming all will be forgotten.

If we beat these g-leaguers then Mike Brown is the goat.

If we lose its cause no OG, its early, learning new offense, Mitch minutes restriction, experiments, the east is crazy goood now..etc

The excuses aren’t doing it since I’m accustomed to being berated for supporting and defending this team including the coach for the past 5 years. But I would take ownership of everything that happened for better or worse in that time period including the culmination of a conference finals run that ended disappointingly. I’d do it all over again. We had an identity and a vision and a nearly consistently upward trajectory.

Your turn to own it brown clowns. You have your utopia, this is the grand vision come to life, you drove off Randle, convinced Dolan to fire the coach, no picks until 2032 to get Mikal. we’re got the calculator out saying how great we are oh the net rating oh the ball movement what a breath of fresh air! So now I’m going to need to see something pretty damn fast. A trip to the finals was supposed to be priced in and now we look helpless against the Magic who just toy with us. We were just in the conference finals!

Oh but it must just be exclusively that a 5x all star(started in the AS game 8 months ago)3x all nba hall of fame bound big man forgot how to play. Even though he was in the conference finals the past two years with two different teams and two different coaches, no he’s now just a losing player holding us all back. Let’s just Randle him out of town too and everything will be magical. But could it be this coach is in over his head and has no idea what he’s doing? When was this dude ever a good coach? When LeBron carried him back before the iPhone was invented? The kings fired him after 31 games last year maybe we need to do the same now before this gets worse. Patience is zero. Brunson’s prime is now in jeopardy. Win now or get out. Now. Save Brunson

[god shammgod]

i didn't even do orlando

franz 24, paolo 23

knicks are looking like the old guy at the club all of a sudden

[prophet_of_rage]

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i think it's time guys, bring mentality back!!!!!!!!

The "denied 6-7x" kinda loses the plot. Wright, Kidd, Donovan, etc. were never really available. The only guy that was actually available who they seemed to take seriously was Jenkins and look how the Grizzlies look without him. I think he was a good choice. Also available:

Mike Malone: Recent champion. Always overachieved with his squads
Mike Bud: Recent Champion. Spurs tree. Winning track record with MIL and ATL
Frank Vogel: Recent Champion. Winning track record with LAL and IND. Forgettable stint with a forgettable Magic team.
Sam Cassell: Generally considered the best assistant in the league and well in line for a gig. Great rapport with players. Winning track record in playing and coaching days.
Johnnie Bryant: Former in house guy. Xs and Os wizard. Great rapport with our players. Ready for the move to the big time?

Like, all of these guys have their drawbacks but afaik we didn't even interview ANY of them. What??? I don't care what anyone says, that's a solid candidate list and we ignored it. I honestly think they wanted Brown all along and put up this facade with guys who weren't even available to say "look, we tried." And that, in my view, is a lot worse than the "rejected" narrative.

Yes, but that approach was always silly because it made Brown look like a consolation prize.

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[3toheadmelo]

the kat trade and firing thibs pretty much ruined this team.

[jvsimonetti0514]

Now this is some serious revisionist history. It was the same usual suspects who made the game threads toxic after every game last year lol… all the KAT, Mikal, bench and kids haters.. like you. Trying to act like it was all the anti-Thibs crowd (who were correct and that’s why he was fired) and now it’s hypocritical they’re complaining about the anti-Brown crowd is disingenuous to say the least.

Feels a little early to spike the football about firing Thibs being the right decision. This front office gave big money to Evan Fournier once upon a time and had to use picks to get out of other bad contracts they had. Not sure pointing to them doing something as it being correct decision. But using your logic, why aren’t Payne, Precious, and Wright back with the team if the front office didn't think that last years bench was bad? Those guys are now either not rotation players or out of league. Mikal is clearly playing a lot better than last year but still isn’t the defender that we expected to get when we traded for him. Thibs was obviously wrong about playing 8 man rotations last year but the “kids” still aren’t playing. Does that make Mike Brown a “kid hater” too”

So because the FO signed Fournier they were wrong to fire Thibs?

Brown has Deuce, Jordan, Hart and Yabu to play ahead of the kids off the bench and still plays Kolek, Mo, and Huk some.. even Jemison suited up. Thibs was running 7 man rotations at this point last season man, cmon now.

Cam isn’t back because we signed Jordan. Delon didn’t come back because we signed Brogdon. Precious didn’t come back because they signed Yabu. All upgrades or so they thought. Plus we added new draftees and there’s a salary cap/2nd apron we’re at so after Brogdon went down we kept Mo and Shamet instead of bringing back Delon. Smarter move considering we already have Jalen, Deuce, Jordan, Kolek, Mikal, Shamet, at pg/sg…

I’m confused? You said the people that people point out the bench was bad or the kids weren’t going to help were toxic for pointing that out but you agree with them that the bench needed to upgrade cuz the kids aren’t good?

Also my point about Evan was that the front office has made several mistakes before and just cuz they fired Thibs doesn’t make it the right decision. You/them could still be right cuz there’s still a lot of season left and you might be able to rub it in our faces later on but the initial results have been suspect.