SoTD: Bargnani's defensive numbers over 4 years

[Local_NG_Idiot]

Bosh was producing as a 210lb rookie playing out of position and in year 5 posters are still creating abstract excuses for Bargnani's play.

Producing what? Playing 37 minutes on the worst team in the league in 2005? We won 27 games and got the 1st overall pick when we ask bosh to anchor our defence, HA!

Ah, true Barg supporter attempting to defer the arguement by introducing the Bosh agenda.

I'll clear this up for you, Bosh was never a defensive liability yet never had a big defensive impact. Bargs has shown the potential to be as good of an offensive player as Bosh was for the Raps, however Bargs to this point in his 4 year career has shown he's a defensive liability.

Triano knew this and subbed him out for defense/offense possesions in close games last season. BC has now gone out this past offseason and attempted to surround Bargs with much more athletic, defensive minded players eventhough some plans fell apart (Chandler, Diaw, Kleiza, Wright, Davis).

I just don't understand how anyone can argue against on any level that he's been a stinky bad team defender that has hurt the Raps defense more than helped it in his 4 years.

[ZefSyde]

The question was about whether Bosh could play major minutes on a good defense and he's proven he can. Stop trolling.

So bosh plays major minutes on a 27 win team that gets the 1st overall pick and you're all up in his muffin because the TEAM was ranked 7th in defence? And I'm the troll right? I must wonder why Bosh' defence got worse and worse every year?

I guess if he is capable, then he must not have been trying. I guess what you are really trying to tell us that Bosh CAN play good defence but he just didnt feel like it for the past 5 years.

Either case, he either can and he hasnt or he cant and he wont. Either way it looks bad for him and for you, support such a loser.

[ZefSyde]

Bosh was producing as a 210lb rookie playing out of position and in year 5 posters are still creating abstract excuses for Bargnani's play.

Producing what? Playing 37 minutes on the worst team in the league in 2005? We won 27 games and got the 1st overall pick when we ask bosh to anchor our defence, HA!

Ah, true Barg supporter attempting to defer the arguement by introducing the Bosh agenda.

I'll clear this up for you, Bosh was never a defensive liability yet never had a big defensive impact. Bargs has shown the potential to be as good of an offensive player as Bosh was for the Raps, however Bargs to this point in his 4 year career has shown he's a defensive liability.

Triano knew this and subbed him out for defense/offense possesions in close games last season. BC has now gone out this past offseason and attempted to surround Bargs with much more athletic, defensive minded players eventhough some plans fell apart (Chandler, Diaw, Kleiza, Wright, Davis).

I just don't understand how anyone can argue on any level that he's been a stinky bad team defender that has hurt the Raps defense more than helped it in his 4 years.

Boshs big defensive impact left us last in the league in defence. Thats some impact.

Or maybe you are telling me Bosh is a great capable defender but Bargs is so horrid that he brought the team down to last place. If Bargs was injured all year we would be 7th in the league in defence and win 27 games and get the 1st overall pick.

hah

[Local_NG_Idiot]

Ah, true Barg supporter attempting to defer the arguement by introducing the Bosh agenda.

I'll clear this up for you, Bosh was never a defensive liability yet never had a big defensive impact. Bargs has shown the potential to be as good of an offensive player as Bosh was for the Raps, however Bargs to this point in his 4 year career has shown he's a defensive liability.

Triano knew this and subbed him out for defense/offense possesions in close games last season. BC has now gone out this past offseason and attempted to surround Bargs with much more athletic, defensive minded players eventhough some plans fell apart (Chandler, Diaw, Kleiza, Wright, Davis).

I just don't understand how anyone can argue on any level that he's been a stinky bad team defender that has hurt the Raps defense more than helped it in his 4 years.

Boshs big defensive impact left us last in the league in defence. Thats some impact.

Or maybe you are telling me Bosh is a great capable defender but Bargs is so horrid that he brought the team down to last place. If Bargs was injured all year we would be 7th in the league in defence and win 27 games and get the 1st overall pick.

hah

Oh man, what I'm telling you is the bolded part. Please read before responding to save yourself the keystrokes.

And again, a thread and discussion of Barg's defensive woes, and you continue the Bosh agenda.....

[evenflow]

Also a note on PDSS DRat, if i'm not mistaken it takes into account help D and defensive rebounding therefor giving a better picture of a players whole defensive game. The author goes into his reasoning here and he makes some great point
http://community.raptorspace.com/topic/ ... Stats.html

If you look at the formula for it, it looks at man to man defensive stats as the variables. Team defensive stats are hard to quantify so it's undesrstandable that it doesn't include those. But I feel that on/off drtg does the best job at quantifying the total defensive impact of a player. Of course there needs to be some context to it (who's replacing who, sample size etc...)

But it also takes into account if the player made the right play in regards to help D:

"- Forced field goal misses (FM) - recorded as each time a particular player's man misses a shot. Blocks are added to these to create total forced field goal misses. When an unguarded man misses a shot, it is a team FM. When a help defender comes over to help cause an offensive player to miss, then both the main defender and the help defender get half a FM."


The reason the on/off stats are not good at quantifying the total defensive impact of a player is because there are too many variables involved, competition, the players surrounding said player, the system used etc. There are just too many variables involved in the on/off drat to come to any reliable conclusion about an individuals total defensive impact.

[andreafan]

Try rooting for 7 foot "WHITE' with an exceptional skill set and you get all bully on me. Oh sure i can cheer on 7 foot black guys with skill but they are a dime a dozen. And besides most fans or paying fans are white anyhow, can't we root for our own kind, or would that be deemed racism comon.

[Hendrix]

["- Forced field goal misses (FM) - recorded as each time a particular player's man misses a shot. Blocks are added to these to create total forced field goal misses. When an unguarded man misses a shot, it is a team FM. When a help defender comes over to help cause an offensive player to miss, then both the main defender and the help defender get half a FM."

You can't quantify a players total defensive team impact with that stat. What about guarding the pick and roll, or showing to help the helper, or bumping cutters, or the times a player neglects to rotate over to help? Man to man stats are the main variables in that equation. It attempts to add a bit of "help" defense, but it's just way too hard to quaqntify, and hard to weight accuratly in such a stat imo.

The reason the on/off stats are not good at quantifying the total defensive impact of a player is because there are too many variables involved, competition, the players surrounding said player, the system used etc. There are just too many variables involved in the on/off drat to come to any reliable conclusion about an individuals total defensive impact.

Yes there is some context needed when looking at that stat. You defintily can't just take 1/2 a seasons worth of data and conclude that player x with a -2.1 on off drtg is better then player y with a -1.5 on off drtg. But with over 4 years worth of data of consistantly horrible #'s then it's a pretty damn good indication. Where there's smoke there's fire. And really all anyone needs to do is watch the guy. The #'s simply reinforce what people are seeing out there on the court. There's a reason Bargs gets swapped out on defensive possesions down the stretch of games for Amir. Yet the stat you presented tries to say they are pretty much the same.

[Courtside]

\
Lots of stats
...
The epic failure of this teams defense last season was due to a few factors: The starting SF positions decline in defense, Jose’s consistent poor defense, and Bargnani’s further decline.

Thanks for going into those - it's more of an apples to apples with supersub's original post. I wasn't posting those numbers to prove or refute anything, just trying to add some additional context to the changes over the 4 year span being discussed. I've said many times that Bargnani's game is incomplete and needs a whole lot of improvement - especially defensively - I just like to see the bigger picture than looking at things in isolation.

What we've both proven is that our team defense has been a **** for years and even our best defensive player is only average when playing alongside better defenders than himself - and when he decided he wants to play. That we're looking at our worst defenders over and over and over without trying to figure out what to change in the bigger overall picture is what I question.

People say that posters are emotionally attached to certain players and that;s why they defend them, but don't the people who attack those same players with an equal zeal also have some sort of emotional motive driving them? Is one worse than the other - and if so - which?

Bosh has shown the ability to be a part of a good team defense so long as he has a competent big next to him.

First off - this is a specious argument. He's proven to be average at best, but let's set that aside for a moment. Why is is that Bosh is allowed to be good only when playing alongside other good defenders, but Bargnani somehow has to be good even when playing with poor defenders? Do you not think Bargs would have looked much better defending in FIBA games where his team mates were superstars like James, Wade, Kidd, etc... ? The Olympic Bosh has no relation to the Raptors Bosh, since he changes his game entirely.

[evenflow]

["- Forced field goal misses (FM) - recorded as each time a particular player's man misses a shot. Blocks are added to these to create total forced field goal misses. When an unguarded man misses a shot, it is a team FM. When a help defender comes over to help cause an offensive player to miss, then both the main defender and the help defender get half a FM."

You can't quantify a players total defensive team impact with that stat. What about guarding the pick and roll, or showing to help the helper, or bumping cutters, or the times a player neglects to rotate over to help? Man to man stats are the main variables in that equation. It attempts to add a bit of "help" defense, but it's just way too hard to quaqntify, and hard to weight accuratly in such a stat imo.

The reason the on/off stats are not good at quantifying the total defensive impact of a player is because there are too many variables involved, competition, the players surrounding said player, the system used etc. There are just too many variables involved in the on/off drat to come to any reliable conclusion about an individuals total defensive impact.

Yes there is some context needed when looking at that stat. You defintily can't just take 1/2 a seasons worth of data and conclude that player x with a -2.1 on off drtg is better then player y with a -1.5 on off drtg. But with over 4 years worth of data of consistantly horrible #'s then it's a pretty damn good indication. Where there's smoke there's fire. And really all anyone needs to do is watch the guy. The #'s simply reinforce what people are seeing out there on the court. There's a reason Bargs gets swapped out on defensive possesions down the stretch of games for Amir. Yet the stat you presented tries to say they are pretty much the same.

The PDSS stat takes into consideration when a player doesn't make the right rotations as well. In fact it takes into account if a player made the right play for every situation in a game. What it won't do is ding player A because Player B did not do his job, one of the biggest knocks against on/off drat. Is it subjective, hell yeah, does that mean it is useless, hell know. The subjectivity can be mitigated by the person doing the PDSS, if they know basketball than there is a great chance the data would be reliable.

Your 4 years worth of data does not show anything in regards to individual defensive play because the variables over those four years are not consistent. I'm curious though how the on/off drat stat is weighted for competition, how does one weight the data for playing against a NBA starter vs a NBA bench player?

In regards to being subbed out for defensive possessions, if my memory is right, that was in the first half of the season. In the second of the season Andrea was finishing every game. Also the defensive substitutions can be a reflection of match ups. By your logic, in the second half of the season Andrea was a better defensive player than Amir because he was left in down the stretch.

[turnbuckle]

SuperSub's stats did not show the whole picture, as was noted by Courtside. The team as a whole declined defensively - it wasn't just all on Bargs. To ascertain from some stats that Bargs in the lineup meant 8 less victories for the team is ridiculously presumptuous - not sure how we're supposed to swallow that Koolaid.

You don't need stats to conclude that Bargnani has improvements to make defensively - it's been evident from the first time he donned a Raptors uniform. There have been some strides made however even though some stats junkies would disagree. His man to man is ok, he blocks some shots and boxes out reasonably well.

If he can finally start to figure out his help defence deficiencies and improve his rebounding there will be hope for him yet on the defensive end. I said it before and I'll say it again - I think the absence of Bosh will be a positive for Bargnani - he is now the senior forward on the team in terms of tenure - he has no one (especially no Bosh) to defer to - on many occasions I saw Bargnani box out very well and have an easy chance at a rebound only to let Bosh grab it.

I've never gotten the impression that Bargnani is a attention seeker, unlike Bosh. He didn't mind deferring to the elder statesman, the "star". Well - now there is no star, and I have a feeling Bargnani will seize the opportunity and become more assertive in grabbing rebounds. There have been hints of it in recent int'l games..hopefully it carries over into the NBA season.

If Bargnani somehow manages to get most of the pieces together this season he could be a pretty impactful player. He's capable of being a 24-9-3-3 player...this year more than ever we'll get to see whether it's possible or not.

[Local_NG_Idiot]

If Bargnani somehow manages to get most of the pieces together this season he could be a pretty impactful player. He's capable of being a 24-9-3-3 player...this year more than ever we'll get to see whether it's possible or not.

In the past decade there have been 2 players put up those numbers (or better than those numbers). BOTH won the league MVP the year they put them up. Their names are Shaq and Tim.

Do you actually believe Bargnani is capable of being the league MVP?

[Tony_Montana]

First off - this is a specious argument. He's proven to be average at best, but let's set that aside for a moment. Why is is that Bosh is allowed to be good only when playing alongside other good defenders, but Bargnani somehow has to be good even when playing with poor defenders?

You can isolate instances of Bargnani sans Bosh and his defensive impact, statistically, is not very good. More to the point though, these numbers are driving home a bigger, more important message: Why pair your star perimeter-oriented PF with a poor rebounding poor defending C? It makes no sense. Bargnani was put into an awful situation by BC and he's failed. All these numbers are just coloring in that narrative of just how awful BC has failed in constructing a proper basketball team.

Do you not think Bargs would have looked much better defending in FIBA games where his team mates were superstars like James, Wade, Kidd, etc... ? The Olympic Bosh has no relation to the Raptors Bosh, since he changes his game entirely.

Honestly? He doesn't see the floor for a second on that team. Most coaches in the NBA wouldn't stand for his low-motor, aloof brand of basketball. It's not what wins games.

[Tony_Montana]

If Bargnani somehow manages to get most of the pieces together this season he could be a pretty impactful player. He's capable of being a 24-9-3-3 player...this year more than ever we'll get to see whether it's possible or not.

Jesus Christ.

[Tony_Montana]

Try rooting for 7 foot "WHITE' with an exceptional skill set and you get all bully on me. Oh sure i can cheer on 7 foot black guys with skill but they are a dime a dozen. And besides most fans or paying fans are white anyhow, can't we root for our own kind, or would that be deemed racism comon.

LOL. This is funny as heck, but still offensive.

[RedX]

so we should sit bargs? you also should take into account that he's probably sitting when other rebounding centers are sitting as well. Which means our other players do a better job vs tier 2 players they play against.

[Ripp]

Bosh was the starting centre of a team that won 27 games (which gave us the #1 pick) scrogin 16ppg in 38mins and the teams rating was so low because they slowed down the pace to a crawl.

It's a pace-adjusted stat, genius.

ZefSyde has revealed that he doesn't even understand this stat, how it is calculated, and what the implications of that are. In other words, he is talking about something he doesn't understand. Makes no sense to be debating with him...

[elmer_yuck]

Is there a D League Raptors forum for ZefSyde?

[dTox]

Try rooting for 7 foot "WHITE' with an exceptional skill set and you get all bully on me. Oh sure i can cheer on 7 foot black guys with skill but they are a dime a dozen. And besides most fans or paying fans are white anyhow, can't we root for our own kind, or would that be deemed racism comon.

just like I predicted, your hate for Bosh, and undying love for Bargnani the entire season was actually not their on court play, but a racial thing.......... bravo

[mihaic]

Numbers shmumbers. Why would we trust ON/OFF vs PDSS? Stats are there to prove whatever you want to prove. But superscrub's stats are those he chooses to push his agenda, I am surprised people did not catch on that

Anywho seeing how many Bargnani haters are there out in full force I can't help but smile thinking they'll have a long long year. Whether they are right or wrong

Personally I think with Andrea as #1 option we will not do much worse in comparison with last season - provided that Ed Davis/Amir will be decent. In fact with Turk gone that might compensate Bosh's leaving - addition by subtraction...

What this team's problem is, is the lack of a quality PG. Jose/JJ are very good backup guards but we have no starters

[Zarko]

While Bargnani is still atrocious in team defense, is one of the better man defenders in this league. You could also look @ the fact that the team in general got worse defensively every year hes been in the league.

TJ Ford to Jose Calderon
Anthony Parker to Demar DeRozan
Rasho Nesterovic to 2 mpg Rasho Nestorovic
Shawn Marion to Hedo Turkoglu

This isn't all on him.