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Lot of bad turnovers that were sloppy against good, savvy defenders, but the scoring is unprecedented. I think Zion is easily the best paint scoring teen of all time, and he’s the best post scorer to enter the league in years. Unprecedented scoring prowess.

The whole team looks lazy and lethargic on D except Josh Hart. No accountability.


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NO-KG-AI wrote:Lot of bad turnovers that were sloppy against good, savvy defenders, but the scoring is unprecedented. I think Zion is easily the best paint scoring teen of all time, and he’s the best post scorer to enter the league in years. Unprecedented scoring prowess.

The whole team looks lazy and lethargic on D except Josh Hart. No accountability.


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He needs to drill ball control like crazy in the off season. If he can stop losing the ball he can start taking the longer defenders outside the paint and using his speed

NO-KG-AI wrote:Lot of bad turnovers that were sloppy against good, savvy defenders, but the scoring is unprecedented. I think Zion is easily the best paint scoring teen of all time, and he’s the best post scorer to enter the league in years. Unprecedented scoring prowess.

The whole team looks lazy and lethargic on D except Josh Hart. No accountability.


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it's hard to evaluate his ceiling because of this.

He's not bringing any sort of all round game to the table, his playmaking is fine but unspectacular, his shooting will keep people honest but not a real threat, his defense is extremely good and does have DPOY ceiling but that doesn't win championships.

so in all honesty, I've always thought he'd be just outside the really great players in the league, at his peak a top 15 guy, I was pretty big on the blake griffin comparisons, but the ability to score in the paint, off drives, spin moves, lobs, this I did not see coming.

being a great interior scorer with limited range shouldn't make you a top 5 guy, but being that good in the paint, well I don't know. he just looks immune to defense at times.

akhan786 wrote:Another plug to get the conversation started on another Co-ROY

Zion and Ja are unprecedented

Kidd and Hill were unprecedented as well.

Would be a great story too and fodder for discussion/clicks/arguments etc

how are they unprecedented? What do you mean by that?

Last year we had 2 pretty amazing rookies, both of whom had better rookie campaigns than anyone from this year's class.

NO-KG-AI wrote:Lot of bad turnovers that were sloppy against good, savvy defenders, but the scoring is unprecedented. I think Zion is easily the best paint scoring teen of all time, and he’s the best post scorer to enter the league in years. Unprecedented scoring prowess.

The whole team looks lazy and lethargic on D except Josh Hart. No accountability.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

IMO too much too early by way of responsibility with the ball. But this to will come in due time, the more he sees the easier it will become to figure out the best way to handle it. He's not quite ready to read and dissect set defenses yet but he will be going forward. to still have this level of gravity and effectiveness whilst still playing with Bambi legs is impressive even for those of us who knew this was coming.

NO-KG-AI wrote:Lot of bad turnovers that were sloppy against good, savvy defenders, but the scoring is unprecedented. I think Zion is easily the best paint scoring teen of all time, and he’s the best post scorer to enter the league in years. Unprecedented scoring prowess.

The whole team looks lazy and lethargic on D except Josh Hart. No accountability.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

he's gonna have those odd turnovers especially in the lane when people will keep swiping at the ball, he's actually got smallish hands for his size so it's easier to knock out especially for guys with quick and strong swipes (LeBron did it cleanly last night)

shakes0 wrote:

akhan786 wrote:Another plug to get the conversation started on another Co-ROY

Zion and Ja are unprecedented

Kidd and Hill were unprecedented as well.

Would be a great story too and fodder for discussion/clicks/arguments etc

how are they unprecedented? What do you mean by that?

Last year we had 2 pretty amazing rookies, both of whom had better rookie campaigns than anyone from this year's class.

not really, Ja and Trae virtually the same box scores from their rookies year, but Ja is actually shooting better from the field and better from 3, better TS%, PER and WS/48 (and Ja wasn't even known as a shooter)

and I'd take Zion's rookie year so far over Luka's too. per minute basis Zion is having the best rookie year since Shaq, and best ever for a teenager.

clyde21 wrote:

shakes0 wrote:

akhan786 wrote:Another plug to get the conversation started on another Co-ROY

Zion and Ja are unprecedented

Kidd and Hill were unprecedented as well.

Would be a great story too and fodder for discussion/clicks/arguments etc

how are they unprecedented? What do you mean by that?

Last year we had 2 pretty amazing rookies, both of whom had better rookie campaigns than anyone from this year's class.

not really, Ja and Trae virtually the same box scores from their rookies year, but Ja is actually shooting better from the field and better from 3, better TS%, PER and WS/48 (and Ja wasn't even known as a shooter)

and I'd take Zion's rookie year so far over Luka's too. per minute basis Zion is having the best rookie year since Shaq, and best ever for a teenager.

Context matters Clyde. Trae put up his stats while being double teamed at half court more than just about any player in the league. He might've actually been tops in that department league wide. Ja never gets double teamed over half court.

Comparing 3pt% doesn't make sense when one guy shoots 3x as many 3s as the other. Also, let's not forget the astronomical leap in Trae's shooting from the first couple months of the season compared to January on.

Trae averaged 19 and 8, Ja is aty 17 and 7. Both great, but I don't really think they're on the same level in terms of rookie years. Let's see if Ja can go on even close to the tear that Trae went on after last year's all star break. He had a good start wit the game vs LA Saturday night.

clyde21 wrote:

shakes0 wrote:

akhan786 wrote:Another plug to get the conversation started on another Co-ROY

Zion and Ja are unprecedented

Kidd and Hill were unprecedented as well.

Would be a great story too and fodder for discussion/clicks/arguments etc

how are they unprecedented? What do you mean by that?

Last year we had 2 pretty amazing rookies, both of whom had better rookie campaigns than anyone from this year's class.

not really, Ja and Trae virtually the same box scores from their rookies year, but Ja is actually shooting better from the field and better from 3, better TS%, PER and WS/48 (and Ja wasn't even known as a shooter)

and I'd take Zion's rookie year so far over Luka's too. per minute basis Zion is having the best rookie year since Shaq, and best ever for a teenager.

Ja vs Trae tonight should be exciting.

Grizzlies at Hawks from a rookie standpoint:
Ja, Clarke ( out ), Hunter, Reddish ( questionable ), Fernando

Compared to last season, this years rookie class has been boring. In my opinion its Ja and not much else due to Zion's injury woes.

shakes0 wrote:

clyde21 wrote:

shakes0 wrote:
how are they unprecedented? What do you mean by that?

Last year we had 2 pretty amazing rookies, both of whom had better rookie campaigns than anyone from this year's class.

not really, Ja and Trae virtually the same box scores from their rookies year, but Ja is actually shooting better from the field and better from 3, better TS%, PER and WS/48 (and Ja wasn't even known as a shooter)

and I'd take Zion's rookie year so far over Luka's too. per minute basis Zion is having the best rookie year since Shaq, and best ever for a teenager.

Context matters Clyde. Trae put up his stats while being double teamed at half court more than just about any player in the league. He might've actually been tops in that department league wide. Ja never gets double teamed over half court.

Comparing 3pt% doesn't make sense when one guy shoots 3x as many 3s as the other. Also, let's not forget the astronomical leap in Trae's shooting from the first couple months of the season compared to January on.

Trae averaged 19 and 8, Ja is aty 17 and 7. Both great, but I don't really think they're on the same level in terms of rookie years. Let's see if Ja can go on even close to the tear that Trae went on after last year's all star break. He had a good start wit the game vs LA Saturday night.

even if you look at 2 pt FG% Ja's at 52% compared to Trae's 47%, Trae also committed more TOs on a per minute basis, and their assist per usage ratio is pretty much the same, they're essentially having the same rookie year but Ja's a bit more efficient...that's not a dig against Trae he was really good but Ja also been incredible so far

also, Ja is doing this while fighting for a PO spot in the West, that adds a little to it as well

Buzzard wrote:

clyde21 wrote:

shakes0 wrote:
how are they unprecedented? What do you mean by that?

Last year we had 2 pretty amazing rookies, both of whom had better rookie campaigns than anyone from this year's class.

not really, Ja and Trae virtually the same box scores from their rookies year, but Ja is actually shooting better from the field and better from 3, better TS%, PER and WS/48 (and Ja wasn't even known as a shooter)

and I'd take Zion's rookie year so far over Luka's too. per minute basis Zion is having the best rookie year since Shaq, and best ever for a teenager.

Ja vs Trae tonight should be exciting.

Grizzlies at Hawks from a rookie standpoint:
Ja, Clarke ( out ), Hunter, Reddish ( questionable ), Fernando

Compared to last season, this years rookie class has been boring. In my opinion its Ja and not much else due to Zion's injury woes.

last year's rookie class was pretty much Trae and Doncic, this year's has been more exciting even tho Ja and Zion are above everyone else as well.

shakes0 wrote:

clyde21 wrote:

shakes0 wrote:
how are they unprecedented? What do you mean by that?

Last year we had 2 pretty amazing rookies, both of whom had better rookie campaigns than anyone from this year's class.

not really, Ja and Trae virtually the same box scores from their rookies year, but Ja is actually shooting better from the field and better from 3, better TS%, PER and WS/48 (and Ja wasn't even known as a shooter)

and I'd take Zion's rookie year so far over Luka's too. per minute basis Zion is having the best rookie year since Shaq, and best ever for a teenager.

Context matters Clyde. Trae put up his stats while being double teamed at half court more than just about any player in the league. He might've actually been tops in that department league wide. Ja never gets double teamed over half court.

Comparing 3pt% doesn't make sense when one guy shoots 3x as many 3s as the other. Also, let's not forget the astronomical leap in Trae's shooting from the first couple months of the season compared to January on.

Trae averaged 19 and 8, Ja is aty 17 and 7. Both great, but I don't really think they're on the same level in terms of rookie years. Let's see if Ja can go on even close to the tear that Trae went on after last year's all star break. He had a good start wit the game vs LA Saturday night.

The slight difference in 1 PPG is mitigated by Trae being bar none the worst defender in the league compared to Ja actually being a positive on that side.

That gap is actually huge and then add in that Ja is a lot more efficient than Trae was, leading a team expected to be last in the conference and potentially last in the league to playoff contention makes it a non contest.

Trae had a good offensive year for a rookie but he was pretty much bulk volume, very poor efficiency and absolutely no defense whilst leading his team to just 29 wins.

You could argue they had similar rookie years but I don’t think you’d get far trying to argue that Trae had a better one.

Trae: 19/4/8/1 with 4 turnovers on 42/32/83
PER: 17
WS/48: .062
BPM: -0.6
VORP: 0.9


Ja: 18/3/7/1 with 3 turnovers on 49/35/78
PER: 18.1
WS/48: .089
BPM: 0.2
VORP: 0.9

clyde21 wrote:

Buzzard wrote:

clyde21 wrote:


not really, Ja and Trae virtually the same box scores from their rookies year, but Ja is actually shooting better from the field and better from 3, better TS%, PER and WS/48 (and Ja wasn't even known as a shooter)

and I'd take Zion's rookie year so far over Luka's too. per minute basis Zion is having the best rookie year since Shaq, and best ever for a teenager.

Ja vs Trae tonight should be exciting.

Grizzlies at Hawks from a rookie standpoint:
Ja, Clarke ( out ), Hunter, Reddish ( questionable ), Fernando

Compared to last season, this years rookie class has been boring. In my opinion its Ja and not much else due to Zion's injury woes.

last year's rookie class was pretty much Trae and Doncic, this year's has been more exciting even tho Ja and Zion are above everyone else as well.

Ja has been the only consistent performer all season. With Zion's injuury, Ja is the biggest story despite what ESPN wants us to believe.

We all have our opinions. I think last season was great and had a lot of drama mixed in with Trae's struggles. I just don't find Zion missing so many games that exciting. I think this class is deeper than most expected but its been very typical of a rookie class. There has been some flashes of promise but a lot more cold flashes than hot flashes.

ROY is not up for debate with me. I think the all rookie class is simply because most of them are so inconsistent.

Young gun 6 wrote:

shakes0 wrote:

clyde21 wrote:


not really, Ja and Trae virtually the same box scores from their rookies year, but Ja is actually shooting better from the field and better from 3, better TS%, PER and WS/48 (and Ja wasn't even known as a shooter)

and I'd take Zion's rookie year so far over Luka's too. per minute basis Zion is having the best rookie year since Shaq, and best ever for a teenager.

Context matters Clyde. Trae put up his stats while being double teamed at half court more than just about any player in the league. He might've actually been tops in that department league wide. Ja never gets double teamed over half court.

Comparing 3pt% doesn't make sense when one guy shoots 3x as many 3s as the other. Also, let's not forget the astronomical leap in Trae's shooting from the first couple months of the season compared to January on.

Trae averaged 19 and 8, Ja is aty 17 and 7. Both great, but I don't really think they're on the same level in terms of rookie years. Let's see if Ja can go on even close to the tear that Trae went on after last year's all star break. He had a good start wit the game vs LA Saturday night.

The slight difference in 1 PPG is mitigated by Trae being bar none the worst defender in the league compared to Ja actually being a positive on that side.

That gap is actually huge and then add in that Ja is a lot more efficient than Trae was, leading a team expected to be last in the conference and potentially last in the league to playoff contention makes it a non contest.

Trae had a good offensive year for a rookie but he was pretty much bulk volume, very poor efficiency and absolutely no defense whilst leading his team to just 29 wins.

You could argue they had similar rookie years but I don’t think you’d get far trying to argue that Trae had a better one.

Trae: 19/4/8/1 with 4 turnovers on 42/32/83
PER: 17
WS/48: .062
BPM: -0.6
VORP: 0.9


Ja: 18/3/7/1 with 3 turnovers on 49/35/78
PER: 18.1
WS/48: .089
BPM: 0.2
VORP: 0.9

We can all cherry pick what ever fits our argument. Like all the 30 and 10 games Trae had as a rookie. More than any rookie in the history of the league except the Big O. Last year was exciting due to Trae struggling so much in October and November.

Then he started shutting people up and the only ammo the haters had left by the end of the season was his first two months of play.

Buzzard wrote:

Young gun 6 wrote:

shakes0 wrote:

Context matters Clyde. Trae put up his stats while being double teamed at half court more than just about any player in the league. He might've actually been tops in that department league wide. Ja never gets double teamed over half court.

Comparing 3pt% doesn't make sense when one guy shoots 3x as many 3s as the other. Also, let's not forget the astronomical leap in Trae's shooting from the first couple months of the season compared to January on.

Trae averaged 19 and 8, Ja is aty 17 and 7. Both great, but I don't really think they're on the same level in terms of rookie years. Let's see if Ja can go on even close to the tear that Trae went on after last year's all star break. He had a good start wit the game vs LA Saturday night.

The slight difference in 1 PPG is mitigated by Trae being bar none the worst defender in the league compared to Ja actually being a positive on that side.

That gap is actually huge and then add in that Ja is a lot more efficient than Trae was, leading a team expected to be last in the conference and potentially last in the league to playoff contention makes it a non contest.

Trae had a good offensive year for a rookie but he was pretty much bulk volume, very poor efficiency and absolutely no defense whilst leading his team to just 29 wins.

You could argue they had similar rookie years but I don’t think you’d get far trying to argue that Trae had a better one.

Trae: 19/4/8/1 with 4 turnovers on 42/32/83
PER: 17
WS/48: .062
BPM: -0.6
VORP: 0.9


Ja: 18/3/7/1 with 3 turnovers on 49/35/78
PER: 18.1
WS/48: .089
BPM: 0.2
VORP: 0.9

We can all cherry pick what ever fits our argument. Like all the 30 and 10 games Trae had as a rookie. More than any rookie in the history of the league except the Big O. Last year was exciting due to Trae struggling so much in October and November.

Then he started shutting people up and the only ammo the haters had left by the end of the season was his first two months of play.

That's fair enough.. but to say Trae's rookie season was better than Ja's is just flat out wrong..

It appears that you are ignoring advanced stats, win contributions, performance relative to expectations, efficiency and defense and are purely relying on an extra point and assist per game...which is just strange.

Trae is a jet but to think he had a better rookie season than Ja is flat out wrong and objectively nearly everything points against your argument.

RJ: 27/5/5/1

KPJ: 16/4/4/1/1

Coby: 19/6/5/1

Buzzard wrote:

clyde21 wrote:

Buzzard wrote:Ja vs Trae tonight should be exciting.

Grizzlies at Hawks from a rookie standpoint:
Ja, Clarke ( out ), Hunter, Reddish ( questionable ), Fernando

Compared to last season, this years rookie class has been boring. In my opinion its Ja and not much else due to Zion's injury woes.

last year's rookie class was pretty much Trae and Doncic, this year's has been more exciting even tho Ja and Zion are above everyone else as well.

Ja is the biggest story despite what ESPN wants us to believe.

This just isn't true. No matter who wins ROY, Zion is BAY FAR the biggest story for rookies. Thats why not just the media, the fans talk about Zion 10 times more than Ja

some of these moves Coby put on tonight are stupid good

clyde21 wrote:

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some of these moves Coby put on tonight are stupid good

He won ROTM in the EC too. Looks good but i dunno if you can have a White/LaVine backcourt defensively.
How's his D?