Draft Thread: Who do you want with the 13th pick? Stanley Johnson and WCS added..change votes if you want

[thamadkant]

What's wrong with Booker? He isn't Winslow, but I think he is a perfect 2 guard.

Michael Jordan
Kobe Bryant
Ray Allen
Reggie Miller
Dwyane Wade

comes to mind when you mention perfect 2 guard...

Booker is an off-the-bench SG... since he is limited in defense and creating offense/plays.

[Saberestar]

What's wrong with Booker? He isn't Winslow, but I think he is a perfect 2 guard.

A perfect SG is a great ball handler and goes hard to the rim....Booker is not that player.

[BobbieL]

Harrell or RHJ at 13
no brainers to me

[AtheJ415]

I am, and I see him to be a damn good player with a lot of potential. And for every uber-athletic American player, I can pull 2-3 who didn't work out. For instance, after Kobe and KG got drafted, guys like Gerald Green, Eddy Curry, Kwame Brown, etc. were all picked.

My point being we have people on here who are criticizing him for other players from the same continent coming out with similar height and skin color. I agree, we should judge them based on their actual skills--not what other people before him did with their own separate skills.

When I see potential, I also consider likelihood of reaching that potential. I have trouble seeing him reach his "immense" potential.

I feel MrMiyagi summed up my feelings very well

At least with Hezonja you can see he gets his own offense, same with Mudiay and Okafor and Towns and Russell. If I'm going to take a guy who can't get his own buckets, he'd better be a great defender, and nothing I've seen of him shows he is. He's not a great shot blocker, he really doesn't have that great of lateral quickness or closing speed.

Definitely valid points from people who have never seen him outside of youtube videos, particularly when respected scouts see differently.

[MrMiyagi]

Fixed it for you, since the same things were said back when he was drafted.


I'd just like to see someone judge him for him instead of spouting off lists of tall european white players who didn't translate well to the NBA.

I guess I should start complaining about athletic black big men who dominated college as freshmen since Beasley failed. Thoughts?

I think I've provided ample criticism of both his play and used examples of all "do-it-all" seven footers at large who haven't panned out. But yeah, just go diminish my argument to the fact that he's a white guy.

What criticisms of his play? And pointing to other guys with skill sets that didn't work out, particularly guys who didn't move as well as him (seriously, you said Bargnani was "fluid", lol), is not a valid criticism of said player, particularly when you ignore all the ones who did.

It would be like me saying Turner will suck because Vonleh hasn't worked out, or similar really crappy logic.

I know Porzingis is a big, but none of the offense he gets comes from him doing anything but catching the ball. I mean, occasionally he'll get an offensive rebound, but he doesn't even do that all that much. I'm not sure he has in-game post moves. At least with Hezonja you can see he gets his own offense, same with Mudiay and Okafor and Towns and Russell. If I'm going to take a guy who can't get his own buckets, he'd better be a great defender, and nothing I've seen of him shows he is. He's not a great shot blocker, he really doesn't have that great of lateral quickness or closing speed. He does have height, but height doesn't always mean a rim protector. To me, the only difference between him and Willie Cauley-Stein is that he can shoot a jump shot, but Cauley-Stein owns him on the other end of the floor. I mean, maybe he becomes a great pick-and-pop player and becomes Channing Frye. Would he be worth the 4th overall pick in this draft?

[MrMiyagi]

I am, and I see him to be a damn good player with a lot of potential. And for every uber-athletic American player, I can pull 2-3 who didn't work out. For instance, after Kobe and KG got drafted, guys like Gerald Green, Eddy Curry, Kwame Brown, etc. were all picked.

My point being we have people on here who are criticizing him for other players from the same continent coming out with similar height and skin color. I agree, we should judge them based on their actual skills--not what other people before him did with their own separate skills.

When I see potential, I also consider likelihood of reaching that potential. I have trouble seeing him reach his "immense" potential.

I feel MrMiyagi summed up my feelings very well

At least with Hezonja you can see he gets his own offense, same with Mudiay and Okafor and Towns and Russell. If I'm going to take a guy who can't get his own buckets, he'd better be a great defender, and nothing I've seen of him shows he is. He's not a great shot blocker, he really doesn't have that great of lateral quickness or closing speed.

Definitely valid points from people who have never seen him outside of youtube videos, particularly when respected scouts see differently.

Oh, so you've seen him in person, right? You're not basing his athleticism based on his dunk mix, right? Because he has not standing jump. He barely gets the ball above the rim when he pulls down an offensive board and puts it back. Where are his great in-game post ups where he gets great positioning in the post? I know he can do it against a stand-in at a workout, but I can do that too. Maybe I should be the 4th pick in the draft.

[lilfishi22]

Definitely valid points from people who have never seen him outside of youtube videos, particularly when respected scouts see differently.

How many people on these boards have?

Scouts are never wrong? We can't have opinions?

[AtheJ415]

When I see potential, I also consider likelihood of reaching that potential. I have trouble seeing him reach his "immense" potential.

I feel MrMiyagi summed up my feelings very well

Definitely valid points from people who have never seen him outside of youtube videos, particularly when respected scouts see differently.

Oh, so you've seen him in person, right? You're not basing his athleticism based on his dunk mix, right? because he has not standing jump. He barely gets the ball above the rim when he pulls down an offensive board and puts it back. Where are his great in-game post ups where he gets great positioning in the post? I know he can do is against a stand-in at a workout, but I can do that to. Maybe I should be the 4th pick in the draft.

I haven't seen him "in person" because I don't travel to Europe, but yes I've seen his team play. In games. And in fact much of your criticisms are listed as direct strengths from scouts. So no, I'm not going to give you credit.

But really I should trust you 2 over the opinions of people who do it for a living due to your analysis based off of youtube. Have you sent in your resumes to McDonough yet? Hell, send it to Sarver. Why do we need McDonough when we have such scouting savants on here who can better judge talent in a youtube video than pro scouts who have been watching his GAMES for YEARS?

[AtheJ415]

Definitely valid points from people who have never seen him outside of youtube videos, particularly when respected scouts see differently.

How many people on these boards have?

Scouts are never wrong? We can't have opinions?

You can, but when they are primarily backed up by ethnicity and skin color with weaknesses listed that are commonly accepted as strengths, other people can feel free to call you out on it.

[lilfishi22]

I haven't seen him "in person" because I don't travel to Europe, but yes I've seen his team play. In games. And in fact much of your criticisms are listed as direct strengths from scouts. So no, I'm not going to give you credit.

But really I should trust you 2 over the opinions of people who do it for a living due to your analysis based off of youtube. Have you sent in your resumes to McDonough yet? Hell, send it to Sarver. Why do we need McDonough when we have such scouting savants on here who can better judge talent in a youtube video than pro scouts who have been watching his GAMES for YEARS?

If your stance is, posters on here know nothing and I'm only listening to scouts then we should end the discussion right here.

[AtheJ415]

I think I've provided ample criticism of both his play and used examples of all "do-it-all" seven footers at large who haven't panned out. But yeah, just go diminish my argument to the fact that he's a white guy.

What criticisms of his play? And pointing to other guys with skill sets that didn't work out, particularly guys who didn't move as well as him (seriously, you said Bargnani was "fluid", lol), is not a valid criticism of said player, particularly when you ignore all the ones who did.

It would be like me saying Turner will suck because Vonleh hasn't worked out, or similar really crappy logic.

I know Porzingis is a big, but none of the offense he gets comes from him doing anything but catching the ball. I mean, occasionally he'll get an offensive rebound, but he doesn't even do that all that much. I'm not sure he has in-game post moves. At least with Hezonja you can see he gets his own offense, same with Mudiay and Okafor and Towns and Russell. If I'm going to take a guy who can't get his own buckets, he'd better be a great defender, and nothing I've seen of him shows he is. He's not a great shot blocker, he really doesn't have that great of lateral quickness or closing speed. He does have height, but height doesn't always mean a rim protector. To me, the only difference between him and Willie Cauley-Stein is that he can shoot a jump shot, but Cauley-Stein owns him on the other end of the floor. I mean, maybe he becomes a great pick-and-pop player and becomes Channing Frye. Would he be worth the 4th overall pick in this draft?

Go on youtube, your favorite site, and look at Draft Express's strengths, which include mobility on D and offensive versatility. That directly contradicts all of your claims here. Included in this is straight line drives lauding his quickness and ability to get to the hoop. He also gets 1.1 blocks per 21.3 minutes--not exactly someone who can't protect the rim. Seriously, it's as if you see his weaknesses as being his universally accepted strengths.

[AtheJ415]

I haven't seen him "in person" because I don't travel to Europe, but yes I've seen his team play. In games. And in fact much of your criticisms are listed as direct strengths from scouts. So no, I'm not going to give you credit.

But really I should trust you 2 over the opinions of people who do it for a living due to your analysis based off of youtube. Have you sent in your resumes to McDonough yet? Hell, send it to Sarver. Why do we need McDonough when we have such scouting savants on here who can better judge talent in a youtube video than pro scouts who have been watching his GAMES for YEARS?

If your stance is, posters on here know nothing and I'm only listening to scouts then we should end the discussion right here.

Why? Are you saying that posters on here don't watch college basketball, so they can't have a real discussion about people in this draft? I think our posters watch basketball--NBA, college, etc.. There are some who maybe judge everything based on youtube highlights, but it shows, for instance when they say guys don't block shots or can't score when their strengths are offensive versatility and they block 2.2 shots per 40.

My problem here is I see people who had pre-conceived bias against a player based on players with his ethnicity and nationality failing in the NBA, and then seeing weaknesses that aren't there. If your criticism on Porzingis was just post game--then okay, that's definitely fair, or rebounding, or any of the other things he actually doesn't do well, then I wouldn't have a problem with it. Instead, you said his ability to score and his quickness. Those are simply wrong.

[lilfishi22]

Definitely valid points from people who have never seen him outside of youtube videos, particularly when respected scouts see differently.

How many people on these boards have?

Scouts are never wrong? We can't have opinions?

You can, but when they are primarily backed up by ethnicity and skin color with weaknesses listed that are commonly accepted as strengths, other people can feel free to call you out on it.

When have I brought up his skin colour or ethnicity?

[SunsFanSSOL]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/rick_bonnell/status/613877255815700481[/tweet]

[AtheJ415]

How many people on these boards have?

Scouts are never wrong? We can't have opinions?

You can, but when they are primarily backed up by ethnicity and skin color with weaknesses listed that are commonly accepted as strengths, other people can feel free to call you out on it.

When have I brought up his skin colour or ethnicity?

Who said I was talking about you? You mentioned we. I responded to we.

[MrMiyagi]

Definitely valid points from people who have never seen him outside of youtube videos, particularly when respected scouts see differently.

How many people on these boards have?

Scouts are never wrong? We can't have opinions?

You can, but when they are primarily backed up by ethnicity and skin color with weaknesses listed that are commonly accepted as strengths, other people can feel free to call you out on it.

I've never mentioned his skin color or ethnicity. I've questioned players who have all played over seas. I wouldn't draft Henozja or Mudiay in the top 8. My top 8 are Towns, Okafor, Russell, Winslow, Johnson, Booker, Cauley-Stein, and Kaminsky. I don't trust players coming from overseas who've played 20 minutes per game and putting up low numbers but touted as having great potential. Mudiay put up the best numbers out of the 3, so I'd probably take him above Porzingis and Hezonja. I've said multiple times that they aren't bad players, but they are rated too high. They'd be great picks outside of the top 10.

Porzingis is not Anthony Davis, but everyone is talking about him like he is. "He's a rim protector!" okay, then so is Okafor at 1.8 blocks per 40. "He's a stretch 4!" then why was he only shooting a little over 2 threes a game? "He's can play in the post!" then why is he only catching lobs from his teammates in transition? "He can handle the ball!" then why doesn't he get the ball on the perimeter and left to work on a slower big 1-on-1? "He's a great athlete!" then why isn't he a more dominant rebounder or shot blocker?

I think that Porzingis and Looney are actually quite comparable players in this draft. Why isn't Looney ranked in the top 5? Because he's a jack of all trades, master of none. Porzingis is in the same damn boat, but because no one watched him for 36 games this past year, everyone is free to talk about "potential" and dream up whatever they want about him, despite it not being remotely true. Again, POTENTIAL =/= ABILITY.

[MrMiyagi]

Also, when I said the "mythical euro big man" I'm talking about EURO LEAGUE players not white, anglo-saxon players. Giannis seemed too good to be true and shouldn't have been drafted in the top 5 because you couldn't really gauge how good he was. At 15th overall, it was worth the risk drafting an long, scrawny, freaky physical specimen, and that was in a draft much thinner in talent than this year's.

EDIT: I'd also compare Hezonja to LaVine from last year's draft. An athletic wing with little track record. That's a late lottery guy in my book.

[AtheJ415]

How many people on these boards have?

Scouts are never wrong? We can't have opinions?

You can, but when they are primarily backed up by ethnicity and skin color with weaknesses listed that are commonly accepted as strengths, other people can feel free to call you out on it.

I've never mentioned his skin color or ethnicity. I've questioned players who have all played over seas. I wouldn't draft Henozja or Mudiay in the top 8. My top 8 are Towns, Okafor, Russell, Winslow, Johnson, Booker, Cauley-Stein, and Kaminsky. I don't trust players coming from overseas who've played 20 minutes per game and putting up low numbers but touted as having great potential. Mudiay put up the best numbers out of the 3, so I'd probably take him above Porzingis and Hezonja. I've said multiple times that they aren't bad players, but they are rated too high. They'd be great picks outside of the top 10.

Porzingis is not Anthony Davis, but everyone is talking about him like he is. "He's a rim protector!" okay, then so is Okafor at 1.8 blocks per 40. "He's a stretch 4!" then why was he only shooting a little over 2 threes a game? "He's can play in the post!" then why is he only catching lobs from his teammates in transition? "He can handle the ball!" then why doesn't he get the ball on the perimeter and left to work on a slower big 1-on-1? "He's a great athlete!" then why isn't he a more dominant rebounder or shot blocker?

I think that Porzingis and Looney are actually quite comparable players in this draft. Why isn't Looney ranked in the top 5? Because he's a jack of all trades, master of none. Porzingis is in the same damn boat, but because no one watched him for 36 games this past year, everyone is free to talk about "potential" and dream up whatever they want about him, despite it not being remotely true. Again, POTENTIAL =/= ABILITY.

Direct quote from you: "How many times have we heard this about a mythical Euro big?". You then proceeded to compare him to Euro players by name, all of whom are white stereotypical European bigs. How is this not the absolute definition of bias?

As for rim protection--Okafor plays the 5, and wasn't asked to defend on the perimeter much. Porzingis got drastically more blocks/minute against better competition and when playing against many stretch 4s, meaning he wasn't in the best position to get those relative to Okafor. Also, the idea that he can't improve given his length and athleticism and age is pretty asinine. You're drafting based on potential because people his size and length who can walk and chew gum at the same time are rare, let alone can actually legitimately play the 4.

[MrMiyagi]

You can, but when they are primarily backed up by ethnicity and skin color with weaknesses listed that are commonly accepted as strengths, other people can feel free to call you out on it.

I've never mentioned his skin color or ethnicity. I've questioned players who have all played over seas. I wouldn't draft Henozja or Mudiay in the top 8. My top 8 are Towns, Okafor, Russell, Winslow, Johnson, Booker, Cauley-Stein, and Kaminsky. I don't trust players coming from overseas who've played 20 minutes per game and putting up low numbers but touted as having great potential. Mudiay put up the best numbers out of the 3, so I'd probably take him above Porzingis and Hezonja. I've said multiple times that they aren't bad players, but they are rated too high. They'd be great picks outside of the top 10.

Porzingis is not Anthony Davis, but everyone is talking about him like he is. "He's a rim protector!" okay, then so is Okafor at 1.8 blocks per 40. "He's a stretch 4!" then why was he only shooting a little over 2 threes a game? "He's can play in the post!" then why is he only catching lobs from his teammates in transition? "He can handle the ball!" then why doesn't he get the ball on the perimeter and left to work on a slower big 1-on-1? "He's a great athlete!" then why isn't he a more dominant rebounder or shot blocker?

I think that Porzingis and Looney are actually quite comparable players in this draft. Why isn't Looney ranked in the top 5? Because he's a jack of all trades, master of none. Porzingis is in the same damn boat, but because no one watched him for 36 games this past year, everyone is free to talk about "potential" and dream up whatever they want about him, despite it not being remotely true. Again, POTENTIAL =/= ABILITY.

Direct quote from you: "How many times have we heard this about a mythical Euro big?". You then proceeded to compare him to Euro players by name, all of whom are white stereotypical European bigs. How is this not the absolute definition of bias?

I also compared him to Perry Jones, Anthony Randolph, and Giannis Antetekounpo. But hell, let's just leave them out.

[lilfishi22]

Why? Are you saying that posters on here don't watch college basketball, so they can't have a real discussion about people in this draft? I think our posters watch basketball--NBA, college, etc.. There are some who maybe judge everything based on youtube highlights, but it shows, for instance when they say guys don't block shots or can't score when their strengths are offensive versatility and they block 2.2 shots per 40.

My problem here is I see people who had pre-conceived bias against a player based on players with his ethnicity and nationality failing in the NBA, and then seeing weaknesses that aren't there. If your criticism on Porzingis was just post game--then okay, that's definitely fair, or rebounding, or any of the other things he actually doesn't do well, then I wouldn't have a problem with it. Instead, you said his ability to score and his quickness. Those are simply wrong.

I don't care where he's from or what colour his skin is.

I look at all his strengths and they are mostly based on meeting his potential of fully utilising his physical measurements and the fact that he's more fluid than most 7-footers. He shoots the ball well and has some ability to put it on the floor in certain situations but as far as actual skills go, that's about it.

From a weakness standpoint, he's not a particularly good finisher at the rim, he struggles as rebounder and has zero post game.