PG: Screwed the pooch

[fleet]

Y'all wanna see Blake dance? He's got such nice footwork.

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Foul my ass.

whether or not it is a foul (not), it is never a foul in that game situation.

[Ice Man]

OK, I missed the game, so the first time I saw that. That call is a **** disgrace. It's a discredit to the defender for making a terrific play. That's just awful.

[RakimAbdulJabar]

You know what though, if we were Clippers fans we'd be pointing out how Jimmy moves his body into him while he's in the air. I didn't think it was a foul initially but if I'm being completely honest. I kind of think it is. Whether or not the refs should call it in that situation considering how much they had allowed the Clippers to do is a different story

[fleet]

Jimmy shot half the Bulls FT even with an bad over all game. So I guess he had that going for him

12 FTAs, thats what the greats do when they are having a tough game. The Clippers paid a lot of attention to him.

On that note, The Bulls had enough FTs last night, but the coach (other than Jimmy, and I think Wade?) didn't seem to design or stress getting to the line when the Clippers started forcing the Bulls to the outside for misses.

[babblin-on]

Here's why you can't play Lopez at center against a Griffin-Speights combo:

1. If he guards Speights, he needs to rotate and run out to the 3-point line. He can't do that.

2. If he guards Griffin, he is guarding every single PNR, something he can't do. He can't stop Griffin on the move, nor can he switch onto CP3, which the Bulls bigs were doing all game.

If you didn't think Portis should have played as much, that's fine. But if you think Lopez was the solution, your scouting report is way off imo.

Or maybe Lopez grabs several offensive rebounds at the other end andthe teams trade baskets and Rivers ends up pulling Speights. As it was, Speights eclipsed his season scoring average in the 4th, alone so clearly Portis wasn't a match-up for him either. Stands to reason it would've been worth trying something else, even if not Lopez.

[JeremyB0001]

I have never cared nor will I ever care for these +/- stats on a game to game basis as they can be very misleading. Nor do I care for how many points the Clippers might have scored per 100 possessions with him in the game, those are meaningless stats as far as I'm concerned, just like you say we can't predict what would have happened with him out there neither can you

They're highly imperfect. On/off numbers are best used with a very large sample, thousands of minutes across a few seasons. I don't think they're worthless as part of a conversation like this one. We just need to use them carefully. You say you saw Mirotic playing bad defense last night. I and some others saw him playing his solid defense. That Bulls' opponents have not score a lot with Mirotic on the court both last night and on the season overall is consistent with what we saw and inconsistent with what you saw. On the one hand, +/- over a tiny sample size needs to be taken with a grain of salt. On the other hand, it's the only objective evidence we have to settle our drastically different views about what we saw last night, so we shouldn't ignore it either.

To your next point it really depends on when we call out make or miss. Before it leaves his hands obviously there's no way of knowing, however a split second after leaving his hands I'd say I could take a pretty good guess. Some people shoot the ball with a certain projection that you can immediately see which of their shots has no chance.

Well, knowing what would happened right after the ball left Mirotic's hand wouldn't help Hoiberg, right? Mirotic is already in the game, the shot is already going up. I'm talking about whether Hoiberg and the rest of us knew that Mirotic would miss more threes if he played more minutes last night. You seemed to say you knew that he would because of what you saw in Mirotic's body language and mechanics. I doubt that your observations were all that predictive and it seems like you are maybe now backing off that point.

Like I said, I'm a big Mirotic fan, I don't even like Portis, I've disliked him since he was drafted, and I don't like Hoiberg HOWEVER I will strongly agree to disagree with you about Mirotics defense, effort and ability to recover and/or deserve more minutes last night.

I was literally right behind him, just 2 feet away and I've never seen someone mess with their own mind the way he did. You see guys miss, and they usually react in one of 2 ways, they can remain confident and just believe the next one is going in, or they can complain they were fouled constantly and get angry. Niko had neither approach, he goes to the bench, puts his head down, and just looks defeated. Defensively he made a number of poor decisions (as did others) and he looked slow compared to everyone else out there, whether he was tired, sick, poor foot speed, injured or it was a lack of effort he simply didn't move like the other guys out there in my opinion.

Hey, you're entitled to your own opinions and observations. They just don't trump the opinions and observations held by the rest of us because you had a good seat for the game. I had fantastic camera angles on an HD television. I didn't see poor decisions or slowness. And I don't believe you or anyone else can watch a player's body language and tell how well he's going to do during the next play. If this were the case, every head coach would have a body language expert next to him on the sidelines, telling him how to run substitutions. I'm sure you're right that Mirotic was frustrated that he missed shots. But if the guy melted into a pool and couldn't play good basketball anymore every time he missed a few shots, he wouldn't be one of the 200 or so best basketball players in the world. I could point out numerous instances when his missed his first few shots (and no doubt become frustrated) only to nail some shots after that. As you pointed out, we don't know what would have happened with him out there. I think his career shooting stats are a much better way to guess than body language or what he did on his last five shot attempts.

[Ice Man]

You know what though, if we were Clippers fans we'd be pointing out how Jimmy moves his body into him while he's in the air. I didn't think it was a foul initially but if I'm being completely honest. I kind of think it is. Whether or not the refs should call it in that situation considering how much they had allowed the Clippers to do is a different story

Good point. However, based on what I've heard about this game, and based on my time of NBA watching, I'm guessing that there is precious little chance that the road team would have gotten that call.

[PrimzyBulls81]

FRED god damn it !!!!

MINUTES MANAGEMENT! We are playing Jimmy,Wade too much already..they will be burned out in the end of season

PORTIS - Showcasing him for a trade I think! No other explanation for such big minutes..

[AAU Teammate]

disappointed but not discouraged. this is a great opponent and we hung with them.

as far as Portis-- we have to see what he can do. him progressing would be fantastic. team controlled contract.

[fleet]

You know what though, if we were Clippers fans we'd be pointing out how Jimmy moves his body into him while he's in the air. I didn't think it was a foul initially but if I'm being completely honest. I kind of think it is. Whether or not the refs should call it in that situation considering how much they had allowed the Clippers to do is a different story

I might say in response, and I don't know if this matters, but Blake was moving back, and Jimmy was moving forward with him before Blake launched for the shot. Blake was beaten on the play by the defender. That was a no call. And the situation makes it an unbelievable call.

[vxmike]

People need to chill on Fred it doesn't help when you have Jimmy and Niko throwing up bricks. Ya I understand people didn't like Portis out there for that long nor did I but people who are getting mad at Hoiberg for playing Portis could be the F/O wanting Hoiberg to put in Portis and not Hoiberg's decision. If Niko had a better game both ends there's a good chance he put's in Niko over Portis I could be wrong but ya Hoiberg deserves part of the blame but it doesn't help either also when you get so many BS calls on you.

Hoiberg definitely deserves some blame but I agree it's not all his fault, not even close. Jimmy at times was being super passive and not even looking to drive and get fouled. Instead he ask for the ball only to waste the entire clock and make a horrible jump pass or pass it to rondo and force him to throw up something.

Jimmy didn't have any room to drive--he was surrounded by Clippers when he tried. DJ and Blake make that paint really tough. It doesn't help when teams leave Rondo wide open. Look if Wade doesn't hit five threes this game wouldn't have been as close.

The Clippers are really good. They have a bench now, and if healthy they can make the Finals this year, Balmer did a great job getting guys who aren't minimum guys to sign multi-year minimum deals and get paid under the table. How does a stretch five like Speights not sign a bigger deal with the season he had last year? He's never had s big contract before and he left GSW so it's not a vet ring chaser situation.

[bullslas]

Butler played great defense on that last play. Its sad that was called a foul.

Again, the loss is on Fred not Jimmy. Its on Fred for his awful decision to play Portis. People talk about Portis being more athletic than Lopez but Portis is NOT athletic. Felicio has shown us more athletically then Portis.

Portis should've never been plced in that situation. This was a Win that got away. This road trip probably ends up 4-2 instead of 5-1. I expect a loss in Denver or tonight against the Lakers.

[bullslas]

disappointed but not discouraged. this is a great opponent and we hung with them.

as far as Portis-- we have to see what he can do. him progressing would be fantastic. team controlled contract.

The only thing he showed last year was hustle this year he hasn't even shown that. Portis is a 10-12th man on an NBA team.

[fleet]

People need to chill on Fred it doesn't help when you have Jimmy and Niko throwing up bricks. Ya I understand people didn't like Portis out there for that long nor did I but people who are getting mad at Hoiberg for playing Portis could be the F/O wanting Hoiberg to put in Portis and not Hoiberg's decision. If Niko had a better game both ends there's a good chance he put's in Niko over Portis I could be wrong but ya Hoiberg deserves part of the blame but it doesn't help either also when you get so many BS calls on you.

Hoiberg definitely deserves some blame but I agree it's not all his fault, not even close. Jimmy at times was being super passive and not even looking to drive and get fouled. Instead he ask for the ball only to waste the entire clock and make a horrible jump pass or pass it to rondo and force him to throw up something.

Jimmy didn't have any room to drive--he was surrounded by Clippers when he tried. DJ and Blake make that paint really tough. It doesn't help when teams leave Rondo wide open. Look if Wade doesn't hit five threes this game wouldn't have been as close.

Jimmy had 12 FTAs. So if he didn't have 15, people aren't gonna be happy.

Yes, that Rondo situation will be a problem all year. Defense wins the posession with 6 seconds left on the shot clock, and Rondo still has the ball on the outside. What do you do?

[RakimAbdulJabar]

You seemed to say you knew that he would because of what you saw in Mirotic's body language and mechanics. I doubt that your observations were all that predictive and it seems like you are maybe now backing off that point.

I have no idea why you seem to think I'm backing off that point, I have stuck with that point my entire argument

Hey, you're entitled to your own opinions and observations. They just don't trump the opinions and observations held by the rest of us because you had a good seat for the game. I had fantastic camera angles on an HD television. I didn't see poor decisions or slowness. And I don't believe you or anyone else can watch a player's body language and tell how well he's going to do during the next play. If this were the case, every head coach would have a body language expert next to him on the sidelines, telling him how to run substitutions. I'm sure you're right that Mirotic was frustrated that he missed shots. But if the guy melted into a pool and couldn't play good basketball anymore every time he missed a few shots, he wouldn't be one of the 200 or so best basketball players in the world. I could point out numerous instances when his missed his first few shots (and no doubt become frustrated) only to nail some shots after that. As you pointed out, we don't know what would have happened with him out there. I think his career shooting stats are a much better way to guess than body language or what he did on his last five shot attempts.

I didn't say my opinion held any more value than yours or anyone else's did I? I'm simply stating what I saw as you are. I will say that there's a huge difference between watching what's happening on TV and from a few feet away though. That doesn't make my points/opinions any more or less valid but there's so many small things you don't see on TV and you don't get the same feel for the game in my opinion without having all the factors that are taking place. How intense the defense actually is, how fast a play can break down, how much the crowd can effect certain players. It's made me re-evaluate how I've judged certain players and the coaching staff. I'm not saying I'm right and you're wrong, it's ok that we disagree, it will happen quite often that fans will watch a game and come out with different opinions, no big deal

I will say I think it's very strange that you don't think body language can be read, nor should it impact a coaches decision. I know from personal experience that if I was having a bad night shooting, and I started hanging my head, chances are I would not shoot as well as on nights where I was either playing well or having a regular game. I obviously don't know Niko personally or how his brain works, but I remember hearing him talk in an interview not that long ago and he was saying things along the lines of how he has to continue trying to prove that he can play better and he knows he's capable of more than what he's showing so far, it was all said in what seemed like a very defensive manner (no pun intended) like he feels like he's not playing well and maybe the pressure to perform is getting to him. He had such a good rookie season, people were excited and he's kind of been lost lately

" I think his career shooting stats are a much better way to guess than body language or what he did on his last five shot attempts."

See I don't, personally if I'm a coach I'd be looking at what he's doing in the moment alongside what's his mental state. If we're talking about a guy like Ray Allen with a long history of making big shots and not losing confidence in himself then I'd no hesitation to throw him back out there. I don't think Fred has that confidence in Niko yet, and to be honest I don't think Niko has earned it with his play this season

[Ice Man]

Yes, that Rondo situation will be a problem all year. Defense wins the posession with 6 seconds left on the shot clock, and Rondo still has the ball on the outside. What do you do?

Drop back on defense.

[johnnyvann840]

Here's why you can't play Lopez at center against a Griffin-Speights combo:

1. If he guards Speights, he needs to rotate and run out to the 3-point line. He can't do that.

2. If he guards Griffin, he is guarding every single PNR, something he can't do. He can't stop Griffin on the move, nor can he switch onto CP3, which the Bulls bigs were doing all game.

If you didn't think Portis should have played as much, that's fine. But if you think Lopez was the solution, your scouting report is way off imo.

This. Bobby should have been pulled but I would have gone small with Taj on Speights and just play Jimmy at the 4. Get another ball handler out and shooter on the floor that way. Mo was just torching us and at Jimmy maybe gets a steal, locks him up. I honestly trust the smaller Jimmy to grab a big board than Bobby there and our guards were getting to rebounds whenever the Clips missed a long shot.

[JeremyB0001]

I didn't say my opinion held any more value than yours or anyone else's did I? I'm simply stating what I saw as you are. I will say that there's a huge difference between watching what's happening on TV and from a few feet away though. That doesn't make my points/opinions any more or less valid but there's so many small things you don't see on TV and you don't get the same feel for the game in my opinion without having all the factors that are taking place. How intense the defense actually is, how fast a play can break down, how much the crowd can effect certain players. It's made me re-evaluate how I've judged certain players and the coaching staff. I'm not saying I'm right and you're wrong, it's ok that we disagree, it will happen quite often that fans will watch a game and come out with different opinions, no big deal

I will say I think it's very strange that you don't think body language can be read, nor should it impact a coaches decision. I know from personal experience that if I was having a bad night shooting, and I started hanging my head, chances are I would not shoot as well as on nights where I was either playing well or having a regular game. I obviously don't know Niko personally or how his brain works, but I remember hearing him talk in an interview not that long ago and he was saying things along the lines of how he has to continue trying to prove that he can play better and he knows he's capable of more than what he's showing so far, it was all said in what seemed like a very defensive manner (no pun intended) like he feels like he's not playing well and maybe the pressure to perform is getting to him. He had such a good rookie season, people were excited and he's kind of been lost lately

" I think his career shooting stats are a much better way to guess than body language or what he did on his last five shot attempts."

See I don't, personally if I'm a coach I'd be looking at what he's doing in the moment alongside what's his mental state. If we're talking about a guy like Ray Allen with a long history of making big shots and not losing confidence in himself then I'd no hesitation to throw him back out there. I don't think Fred has that confidence in Niko yet, and to be honest I don't think Niko has earned it with his play this season

I guess we just have a philosophical disagreement here. You like a lot of sports fans believe we can glean all of this insight from body language, the tiny little things one sees up close, etc. I don't believe in any of that. I think it's overthinking things. I think that when people do that it's total guesswork, it's assuming we know more than we do, and the conclusions end up being wrong as often as they're right. I think that if coaches dispassionately chose the rotations based on which players are best, which lineups make the most logical sense, and which lineups have historically performed well, the decisions would be better. You wouldn't ever end up with bad players like Portis hurting the team down the stretch in a close game. And there might be positive unintended consequences. For instance, Mirotic might not beat himself up over a missed shot if he didn't have to worry it would mean he'll be benched down the stretch while Portis helps lose the game.

[bearadonisdna]

The bulls still woulda had to score if they didnt get called for that foul on blake.

[fleet]

Here's why you can't play Lopez at center against a Griffin-Speights combo:

1. If he guards Speights, he needs to rotate and run out to the 3-point line. He can't do that.

2. If he guards Griffin, he is guarding every single PNR, something he can't do. He can't stop Griffin on the move, nor can he switch onto CP3, which the Bulls bigs were doing all game.

If you didn't think Portis should have played as much, that's fine. But if you think Lopez was the solution, your scouting report is way off imo.

This. Bobby should have been pulled but I would have gone small with Taj on Speights and just play Jimmy at the 4. Get another ball handler out and shooter on the floor that way. Mo was just torching us and at Jimmy maybe gets a steal, locks him up. I honestly trust the smaller Jimmy to grab a big board than Bobby there and our guards were getting to rebounds whenever the Clips missed a long shot.

For some reason, Fred hasnt gone small much after MCW went down. I think he still can with Grant or Valentine, but I guess he wants more of a pitbull defender like MCW when he goes small