Summer Trade/(OffSeason) Thread 2017

[VeryMuchWoke]

Something to keep in mind for those looking to address our biggest weakness.

Over the past few seasons, the NBA has built a burgeoning crop of talented centers. At the same time talented future stars joined the league, many NBA teams moved away from giving all 48 minutes to traditional centers, so the increase in supply met a decrease in demand.

That confluence of factors created the center bumper crop, which reared its head last summer and has only grown since. In a development that would dumbfound pundits from decades ago, even talented big men on reasonable contracts could be poor uses of salary cap space for some teams.


For example, the Raptors ended up starting and finishing a few games with Serge Ibaka at center in their first-round series against the Bucks. While Toronto needs to have someone capable of logging minutes at the position, the two seasons and $32 million plus a $17.6 million player option owed to Jonas Valanciunas may be a little rich considering their prodigious luxury tax bill should both Kyle Lowry and Ibaka choose to return.


While working through potential trade destinations for Valanciunas, a substantially more shocking realization presented itself: even just counting players under team control — meaning those under contract or where the team holds match rights — very few franchises need centers.

Full article here

[DK-All Day]

Malik Beasley was the #12 pick last year. Think about that for a minute

Who?

Exactly!!!

Last year was one of the worst drafts in recent memory though.

[SmartWentCrazy]

So the pitch to Hayward is, So Gordon we just traded or starting 2 guard for a draft pick that "may help us in 4-5 years" come join us.

Where do I sign?

Apparently you are too dumb to understand the salary cap and luxury tax

Celtics can sign a max guy, sign Thomas, sign Bradley and sign Smart if they choose

So you're proposing our pitch to Hayward be take less than max money to leave the team you've been with for 6-7 years?

We can't keep Bradley, Smart and Crowder and have max cap space and you've blasted a guy for proposing to trade Bradley or Crowder for a pick, so I don't really know what you're looking for.

[VeryMuchWoke]

If Jrue bolts from New Orleans they'll be in desperate need of a PG. Smart or Rozier for future firsts/swap rights could be perfect for us if we're getting Hayward. If we're not getting Hayward perhaps we could get an even bigger haul for IT. Any pick from the Pels could quickly turn into gold.

[reload141]

Bradley for #12 is good, then if somehow PG13 wants to come here we could free up enough space and trade multiple picks for an extended PG13 while keeping this years #1 pick.
I like it. Exactly what we'd need to do to consolidate the 1/2/3 position and acquire high end talent with Hayward & George.

[Patsfan1081]

Pistons opened to moving 12 for an established player. Considering we need to clear a log jam and clear salary for Hayward.....Bradley or Crowder for 12?

So the pitch to Hayward is, So Gordon we just traded or starting 2 guard for a draft pick that "may help us in 4-5 years" come join us.

Where do I sign?

I doubt they would trade the pick for a rental of Bradley anyways, it would have to be for Crowder.

[Banks2Pierce]

I doubt they would trade the pick for a rental of Bradley anyways, it would have to be for Crowder.

Guys like Ibaka and George Hill have gone for late lotto picks(+ in Ibaka's case) within the past year with a year left. Batum for a similar return the year before. I wouldn't move Crowder before getting Hayward, but I would think about a lot of AB deals.

[Fencer reregistered]

Something to keep in mind for those looking to address our biggest weakness.

Over the past few seasons, the NBA has built a burgeoning crop of talented centers. At the same time talented future stars joined the league, many NBA teams moved away from giving all 48 minutes to traditional centers, so the increase in supply met a decrease in demand.

That confluence of factors created the center bumper crop, which reared its head last summer and has only grown since. In a development that would dumbfound pundits from decades ago, even talented big men on reasonable contracts could be poor uses of salary cap space for some teams.


For example, the Raptors ended up starting and finishing a few games with Serge Ibaka at center in their first-round series against the Bucks. While Toronto needs to have someone capable of logging minutes at the position, the two seasons and $32 million plus a $17.6 million player option owed to Jonas Valanciunas may be a little rich considering their prodigious luxury tax bill should both Kyle Lowry and Ibaka choose to return.


While working through potential trade destinations for Valanciunas, a substantially more shocking realization presented itself: even just counting players under team control — meaning those under contract or where the team holds match rights — very few franchises need centers.

Full article here

Interesting. It suggests that the less-than-max cap room we can achieve without dumping core rotation players might be enough to add a solid big man (and potentially make the roster crunch yet worse, but I digress ...). Indeed, getting two potentially solid big men plus the rookies might be doable with only modest pruning.

[GregB]

From Bulpett, so basically from Ainge

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One question is whether they'd do it before the draft, thus blowing the chance of using cap room on Hayward or Griffin.

Another question is whether "Before the draft" timing even matters. Assuming the deal doesn't include Brooklyn 17, the main way the draft is relevant is a multi-team deal in which -- for example -- Bradley and/or Crowder are traded for picks that are then moved on to Indy.

Nah you just take Fultz like Cleveland did with Wiggins. So if you do sign Hayward you can make the trade after.

Plus, We could put a deal around Bradley and Brown or Bradley and Crowder plus the 18 nets pick so we can keep Fultz.

[Slartibartfast]

Diminishing returns start to kick in with IT/Hayward/George. Would only want 2/3 of that group.

Sure, but the 2 we'd want are Hayward/George. PG is an addition guy, while Hayward/IT fit the playmaker role, and both of those guys can be very good off ball. The only issue with that trio is ITs D and you can minimize that by giving him all the minutes against bench PGs, stagger him with Hayward and cut his minutes a bit against backcourt lineups with 2 tough covers. Basically make him an honorary starter/6th man and play him ~25-30mpg

And I don't really like the acquisition cost (likely Jaylen and BK18) without a great frontcourt move to go along with it.

I think you're overestimating PGs value in the final year if his deal. I think the cost would be more like Jaylen alone, or DeAngelo+Lottery protected first. Indiana has to take what they can get in that scenario and there will only be 2 bidders. Fultz/Ingram/Ball/BK 18 are probably all off the table.

You could be right. I think you have nailed the first asking price. It would come down to who has the leverage and who capitulates first.

Horford isn't good enough to be on an island in the middle. And PG13 isn't a dominant PF like LBJ or Green.

People way overvalue rim protection on this board. With a lineup like Fultz (in time)/Jaylen/Hayward/PG at the forward spots we'd have a very switchable lineup that would do a great job of containing penetration without putting the D in rotation.

It's not just rim protection (though that is big). It's rebounding and toughness. A lightweight 5 in Al is already exposed on his own. Putting a wing at the 4 next to him just exacerbates the issue.

PG isn't a Shawn Marion type. I don't think it would work.

Making a big offer on PG only makes sense to me if you can follow it up with an impact big man, not Gordon Hayward. Or if Gordon Hayward, something like IT for a big man (but I can't think of a good trade - current big man quality really drops off after the elites).

[Gomes3PC]

I know it's a huge risk, but honestly, the more you think about this team, the more Blake Griffin fits the holes. He fills rebounding, physicality, and most importantly he plays PF, which is a massive gaping wasteland of talent lately in the NBA. Sign Griffin and you can then trade for PG/Butler and have a great conventional lineup of (assume that Brown/Crowder plus picks are the core of a deal):

IT-Bradley-PG/Butler-Griffin-Horford
Bench: Fultz-Smart-Zizic-Yabu/Jerebko-Rozier

To me at least, that team has a drastically higher ceiling than a core of IT, Hayward, PG/Butler, and Horford.

It depends on how much Blake can hold up over the course of 100+ games, but you manage his minutes right and that group at least gives you a shot at beating the Cavs.

The true ideal is acquiring DAJ or a similar true center. Then, sure, go ahead and sign Hayward. Get the beast in the middle and I trust Brad to make the offense work if you put enough smart wings/guards out there for him to mix and max.

[VeryMuchWoke]

It's not just rim protection (though that is big). It's rebounding and toughness. A lightweight 5 in Al is already exposed on his own. Putting a wing at the 4 next to him just exacerbates the issue.

At what point exactly was Al "exposed"? He gave up a few more offensive rebounds than one would hope, but he more than makes up for it on the other end. Also, we could play a huge lineup of Zizic/Horford/George/Hayward/<PG>.

As far as rebounding goes, we'd be bigger at just about every position, other than Power Forward and I believe George could do as much damage on the boards as Amir/Olynyk/Jerebko per minutes played. Other than willingness to play the position, you won't find a better smallball 4 than George.

Toughness is not something I see lacking in this team currently, and I don't think it would be a problem.

PG isn't a Shawn Marion type. I don't think it would work.

Why would he need to be a Shawn Marion type? He's far better than Shawn Marion. He's bigger, he's a better defender, he's a better scorer. Shawn Marion would be a huge downgrade. Are you saying that's too many high usage guys? I think the goal would be to put 2 of IT/Hayward/George on the floor at all times.

PG has a usage rate of around 30 the last 3 years. IT was at 34 this year and 30 the year before. Hayward is a shade below at around 27. Steph, Durant and Klay posted usage rates of 30/28/26 respectively and Kyrie/James/Love posted 31/30/27, so I don't see any issue with having too many high usage guys.

Making a big offer on PG only makes sense to me if you can follow it up with an impact big man, not Gordon Hayward. Or if Gordon Hayward, something like IT for a big man (but I can't think of a good trade - current big man quality really drops off after the elites).

See the article I posted above on the availability of decent bigs. With Horford/Zizic we would need 1 more big, at most, and we could always move a future first. I prefer building for the future and having a longer window, but I don't see any problems with roster construction if we can add PG13 without giving up a huge haul

[greenroom31]

Not a trade candidate, but if actually healthy (which would be hard to imagine) could be a vet minimum target:

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[Green89]

Not a trade candidate, but if actually healthy (which would be hard to imagine) could be a vet minimum target:

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I'd rather deal for Chandler if we're going to add a 34-year-old big. They are the same age but TC had a proven season last year averaging over 11 boards per game. Okafor is far from proving he can even still play. I'd rather pay the extra funds for the proven vet.

[Andrew McCeltic]

Blake Griffin's Rebounding %s, Regular Season 2016-17 :
• DeAndre Jordan ON the court: OREB% - 5.7, DREB% - 19.0, TREB% - 12.8
• DeAndre Jordan OFF the court: OREB% - 9.9, DREB% - 29.6, TREB% - 18.9

The difference is significant -- he basically turns from Kelly Olynyk into Kevin Love (basing on this season's numbers). They also often share the floor together since Doc's not a fan of staggering his starters.

Of course, you'd have to decrease those numbers if he's sharing the floor with Horford/Zizic but not by much when compared to sharing the floor with a rebounding monster like Jordan. The small sample (5 mpg w/o DJ) might have also skewed the numbers in Blake's favor.

Damn, quick answer. Yeah, 5mpg is tough. Where'd you find these? Would wonder about other center/pf pairs.

[Andrew McCeltic]

Something to keep in mind for those looking to address our biggest weakness.

Over the past few seasons, the NBA has built a burgeoning crop of talented centers. At the same time talented future stars joined the league, many NBA teams moved away from giving all 48 minutes to traditional centers, so the increase in supply met a decrease in demand.

That confluence of factors created the center bumper crop, which reared its head last summer and has only grown since. In a development that would dumbfound pundits from decades ago, even talented big men on reasonable contracts could be poor uses of salary cap space for some teams.


For example, the Raptors ended up starting and finishing a few games with Serge Ibaka at center in their first-round series against the Bucks. While Toronto needs to have someone capable of logging minutes at the position, the two seasons and $32 million plus a $17.6 million player option owed to Jonas Valanciunas may be a little rich considering their prodigious luxury tax bill should both Kyle Lowry and Ibaka choose to return.


While working through potential trade destinations for Valanciunas, a substantially more shocking realization presented itself: even just counting players under team control — meaning those under contract or where the team holds match rights — very few franchises need centers.

Full article here

Yup, but that's why our gap is so frustrating. The Towns draft was a horrible year to sneak out of the lottery and miss on all the bigs. I'd theoretically take Valanciunas into our cap space - still prefer Vucevic. Would try Kanter next to Horford, too.

[bucknersrevenge]

Any chance this guys skillset would fit here in Stevens' system?

Watch on YouTube

[Fencer reregistered]

Any chance this guys skillset would fit here in Stevens' system?

Watch on YouTube

Good find!

Yeah, a player with those skills might have a lot of fun playing for Brad.

[Fencer reregistered]

Meanwhile, it would be mechanically pretty straightforward for NO to deal Davis and Boogie together to the Cs. Having three outstanding bigs isn't crazy; there are enough minutes for all three. As to who comes off the bench -- if Boogie's charter was "go crazy and do what you're best at", coming off the bench might actually suit him.

The key to the mechanics on such a deal, by the way, is that Cousins can be absorbed into cap room.

Obviously, the outgoing package would be enormous, probably starting with Fultz, Brooklyn 18, Jaylen, the rights to Zizic, and the rights to Yabusele.

Also, obviously, the deal should be one that appeals to the Cs even if Cousins walks in a year. But I don't think that aspect would be much of a problem.

[Darthlukey]

Meanwhile, it would be mechanically pretty straightforward for NO to deal Davis and Boogie together to the Cs. Having three outstanding bigs isn't crazy; there are enough minutes for all three. As to who comes off the bench -- if Boogie's charter was "go crazy and do what you're best at", coming off the bench might actually suit him.

The key to the mechanics on such a deal, by the way, is that Cousins can be absorbed into cap room.

Obviously, the outgoing package would be enormous, probably starting with Fultz, Brooklyn 18, Jaylen, the rights to Zizic, and the rights to Yabusele.

Also, obviously, the deal should be one that appeals to the Cs even if Cousins walks in a year. But I don't think that aspect would be much of a problem.

Going down the opposite path, do the Pelicans have anything of value outside of boogie and Davis assuming they make the playoffs next year? Someone already mentioned sending smart or Rozier there is holiday leaves. They could use a Bradley or crowder too