daoneandonly wrote:Rn5ho wrote:UcanUwill wrote:
AS we already covered, those prospects you mentioned translated as well as they should. Its not Doncic fault that Hezonja, who was a scrub in Europe was taken 5th. in the draft, because some GM saw a guy who jumps high and makes an open 3, and thought that was enough to make a star in the NBA...
I agree with you to a point that people need to learn from the past somewhat. Thats why I am not a fan of this new trend of wasting a very high pick on an Euro bench warmer. Hezonja, Ntlikina, Bender were bench warmers, but some GMs naively assumed that as soon as these guys leave ''stubborn'' Euro system they gonna flourish. Thats pretty dumb, and needs to stop. I agree with you there.
But Doncic is completely different animal. He is not being drafted just for his illusory potential, or a leap of faith that hes gonna get it. He is being drafted because he already dominating good Euroleague competition. No previous Euro prospect has done it, the last who came close is Pau Gasol. Thats why comparing Doncic to other Euros just because is just wrong.
Doncic is prime example that young player can flourish in Euro system, and straight up proof how terrible Hezonja and Bender picks were. NBA people never saw young player get so much playing time in Europe and assumed its norm, they assumed no young player, no matter how good cant get playing time under ''stupid'' Euro coaches. But Doncic has proven its possible, and time has proven that the sole reason why those other Euro NBA prospects were burried on the bench, was because they just sucked, not because of stupid pro-vet European coaching.
You keep saying how Hezonja was a terrible pick. And in general, how some picks are "terrible". Based on what tho? Where and what determines what a player picked as #x should contribute? Each year draft classes are different and sometimes they are stronger and sometimes they are weaker. If a class is weak, then naturally a players who's not a top class, can still make it to the top 10. Sometimes based on potential, sometimes based on production/talent. But in good classes, it takes a combination of both.
Hezonja was drafted 5th, yet everyone calls him a bust/terrible pick. But let's actually have a look at actual numbers/facts:
#1: KAT
#2: D'Angelo Russell
#3: Jahlil Okafor
#4: Kristaps Porzingis
#5: Mario Hezonja
#6: Cauley-Stein
#7: Mudiay
#8: Stanley Johnson
#9: Frank Kaminsky
#10: Winslow
#11: Turner
#12: Lyles
#13: Booker
#14: Payne
#15: Oubre Jr.
...
Of the picks above, KAT, Porzingis, Russell are the only ones in top 10 (!!) that should by some people's standards around here actually belong there. The rest are Okafor, Hezonja, Mudiay, Johnson, Kaminsky and Winslow. Of these, Hezonja actually has by far the lowest MPG, but the actual production is not actually that far behind or in some cases even ahead of others.
The other guys in the draft that proved to have been worth of a higher pick are obviously Booker and Turner (the rest are not standing out that much, but there are more of them that could/should be in conversation for that).
After all of this, Hezonja is not performing THAT much worse than his American counterparts who were drafted around position, the problem is just that Booker and Turner performed heavily above expectations.
I agree, Hezonja was no standout prospect/talent, but you have to look at the draft objectively comparing him to the rest of the class before calling him a "stupid #5 pick bust", if the rest of class sucks also, there's no reason to draft him lower.
That's why also the claims that top 5 picks should be generational talents and similar bull are completely stupid, because you say such a thing when talent is different every year and there are draft classes without any generational talent at all! (this doesn't go to you directly, just to make it clear - but some posters are adamant that top 3/5 = new Leborn/Harden/Curry or bust).
I get what you are saying, but the top of this draft is more highly touted then 2015 ever was from my recollection. Rubio was taken ahead of a guy like Curry, yes 5 other guys were as well, but Rubio was hyped to be better the whole time, he doesn't come close. He's never made the playoffs once, true he may finally reach it this year, but that's unacceptable if I were an owner for someone who came with so much hype.
And though I'm a Mavs fan, I live in the DC area so watch the Wizards a lot, Oubre is better in every aspect of basketball than Hezonja, not hyperbole, that's truth. Of the guys you listed drafted after Mario, I think the only ones I would not take ahead of him are Payne and Mudiay.
Buy Curry was once-in-a-lifetime kind of player. Noone could predict he'd turn out to be THIS good. If you say that you knew back then that he was going to be MVP leading a team to multiple rings, you're a straight up liar. I'm 99.9% sure noone could have predicted that. A player like him just simply didn't exist before and he set a new standard - an average sized guard, with average athleticism who was incredibly good shooter with high BBIQ. Based on that, because there was no history of anyone ever before him being this good, they drafted him low. Because of him though, people now realize that this is possibility, that a player can be athletically weak, but high BBIQ and other aspect can still translate to him being en elite player, thus why Trae Young has so much hype as well (people want a new Curry).
Same can
potentially happen with Doncic. No European guard before has turned out to be a star (Petrovic being the closest to that), that's a fact. But no other guard before even warranted the hype to have the potential to be a star, because stats simply didn't back that up, at all. It was fake hype, made up by media, completely unwarranted. It simply had no basis. The only thing it did, was to make Americans super skeptical about any future European guards. But Luka is different, if in no other regard, he's different in the fact that he's actually producing and if he only translates 1:1 to NBA, he'll be a damn good player. Even if he doesn't, he already showed against several NBA centers, that he can still hold his own in terms of rebounding (Gasol brothers, Porzingis, .. and in general, he's averaging very nice rebounding numbers, which should translate). His high BBIQ, which some claim is his only advantage, should also allow him to get his assist numbers up, in fact, they'd already be higher if he had better team mates, so I'm really excited to see him playing with better team mates as I can see him easily find the ways to feed alley oop passes and find holes in the transition.
His scoring is a big question mark, but he has a really nice stroke and release and he showed already that he CAN shoot. He is also very good at getting to the line, so I'm not afraid that he'd be < 15ppg type of player.
I don't think he will be a new Harden, I don't think he will be a superstar like Lebron or whatever, but I think he can become a leader or a star player on a team, given the right circumstances. What will actually happen, we will have to wait and see, but there's a really good chance that
he becomes the Curry of Europe in terms of breaking out as the 1st European guard picked high who actually translates and produces. (read carefully - he will not be a Curry in terms of actual gameplay, but in terms that he people doubted him for x reason since there was noone before him, but he will set a new trend).
He was selected to first team of Eurobasket by chance I guess too. Players listed above didn’t win gold medal and weren’t selected in first team, but I guess that’s no that important in tournament like Eurobasket. The best are, who Alatan says that are the best.
please find me another 18 years old player except Sabonis, who was selected in first team of Eurobasket, ever. It shouldn’t be too difficult, because that’s for sure something totally ordinary.
