Players supposedly hold meeting: No management

[Stratmaster]

There is too much emphasis on the bullpucky and politics.

The Bulls absolutely laid an egg on the second night of a back to back, again. There is something seriously wrong with the players. Either they suck, they mentally think its OK to take games off or they are fantastically out of condition.

All of the crap that happened after being down 17-0 doesn't happen if the players simply show up for the game.

This isn't an excuse for Boylen or anyone else but the emphasis is a little too strong on the coaching. At least, on the current coach.

Their shooting was stone cold. They had several wide open shots. The Celtics opened up scorching hot from 3.

This happens all the time in the NBA. Missing shots in the first 6 minutes of a game is not being out of shape and they certainly weren't "not trying" to make them.

Im not saying Boylen didn't need to take action. But he took stupid action.

How can an NBA coach not be able to devise a single play over a 7 minute time frame to get an easy bucket? He had no clue what to do so instead he embarrassed the players for not making their jump shots.

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I'm with you on multiple levels on the coaching. You need to call timeouts, run set plays, change up the defense to modify the pace of the game, etc. As a coach, there are countless things you do before you go to a 5 man sub.

I disagree on the 17-0 thing. 17-0 is an extremely rare score in the NBA.

I guess my point is that it doesn't have to be the coach's fault OR the player's fault. It can be both. IMO, it is and too much of the negativity is aimed at the coach.

I didn't mean to say 17-0 happens all the time, but big early runs similar to that magnitude do. Especially when good teams play bad teams.

I agree it is on the players when you get blown out early. However, everything that happened after that was all Boylen lunacy.

I was at the game. To everyone around me it was just really bad shooting by the Bulls and can't miss shooting by the Celtics. Boylen had no clue what to do so he pulled everyone.

That would have been fine had he held a meeting on the bench with them (he did but it was brief) and then brought them back in at the next stoppage. That makes some sense. Let them sit a minute, get their **** back together, and then go back at it. He simply left them out. Still, it sounds like the players weren't even upset about the first benching.

The second one was flat out lunacy. The trashing of the team after every loss and the smug approach after the one win probably aren't wearing well.

All of that to say I didn't take it that the bulls lacked effort at the beginning of the game. They were simply outmatched and stone cold shooting wise.



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[BigUps]

Meanwhile, the Bears have a coach who has the team buying in 100%. This is how you build comradery and make a team united. This is what coaching looks like. What Boylen is doing so far is acting like a father, a terrible father at that. He tells you to run through a wall and demands it. Nagy gets his players to run through a wall because they believe in him and love him. Huge difference.

Watch on YouTube

I recognize this is after a win, so its easier to coach in those circumstances, but ask yourself this......from what you've seen of Boylen so far, would he ever do this? Would he ever have this kind of relationship with his players?

[Wingy]

I'm shocked to see fans supporting players throwing the coach under the bus three games in.

Lord knows we've given them much longer than that to stop being indifferent and awful.

Admittedly didn't see the game, but seems like the coach was the one throwing people under the bus to start. Also read that it wasn't necessarily lack of effort, and we were just plain getting beat.

If the latter is the case, then how are you going to receive someone trashing your effort?

Seems like Boylen had done more to trash players 3 games in than the evil Thibs did during his whole tenure.

[MrSparkle]

Their shooting was stone cold. They had several wide open shots. The Celtics opened up scorching hot from 3.

This happens all the time in the NBA. Missing shots in the first 6 minutes of a game is not being out of shape and they certainly weren't "not trying" to make them.

Im not saying Boylen didn't need to take action. But he took stupid action.

How can an NBA coach not be able to devise a single play over a 7 minute time frame to get an easy bucket? He had no clue what to do so instead he embarrassed the players for not making their jump shots.

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I'm with you on multiple levels on the coaching. You need to call timeouts, run set plays, change up the defense to modify the pace of the game, etc. As a coach, there are countless things you do before you go to a 5 man sub.

I disagree on the 17-0 thing. 17-0 is an extremely rare score in the NBA.

I guess my point is that it doesn't have to be the coach's fault OR the player's fault. It can be both. IMO, it is and too much of the negativity is aimed at the coach.

I didn't mean to say 17-0 happens all the time, but big early runs similar to that magnitude do. Especially when good teams play bad teams.

I agree it is on the players when you get blown out early. However, everything that happened after that was all Boylen lunacy.

I was at the game. To everyone around me it was just really bad shooting by the Bulls and can't miss shooting by the Celtics. Boylen had no clue what to do so he pulled everyone.

That would have been fine had he held a meeting on the bench with them (he did but it was brief) and then brought them back in at the next stoppage. That makes some sense. Let them sit a minute, get their **** back together, and then go back at it. He simply left them out. Still, it sounds like the players weren't even upset about the first benching.

The second one was flat out lunacy. The trashing of the team after every loss and the smug approach after the one win probably aren't wearing well.

All of that to say I didn't take it that the bulls lacked effort at the beginning of the game. They were simply outmatched and stone cold shooting wise.



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In defense of Boylen, that’s not fair. Theis came out with pep in his step and looked like Anthony Davis, Marcus Morris got whatever he wanted on and off the ball.

The Bulls could not get one loose ball to save their life. It was a horrible display. Again, 17-0 runs happen in a game, but to start the night like that? Unacceptable imo. Have some pride and energy, do what you have to do to get a point on the board and slow them down. Foul hard, drive to the rim.

They were lobbing soft passes around the perimeter, even resulting in TOs. Exact same stuff started happening in 2nd half although Lauri made a 3p (if i recall).

But whatever — whole lot of drama. These pros should all put it past them and focus on Sacramento.

[AshyLarrysDiaper]

Wait.

We’re dumping on the players because they TALKED about skipping practice before they ultimately showed up and had a frank conversation with the coaches about public shaming and appropriate workload?

Only the Bulls (fans)!

[Stratmaster]

I agree with you about the players. Up until recently, I agreed with you about the rebuild. I'm starting to wonder if these players are a bunch of lazy, whining losers. It may have been covered up by Fred because he never pushed them.

Chicago may have to rebuild the rebuild. Right now, the only keepers in the entire organization might be Wendell and Lauri. When you add up the number of problem people that includes (Michael Reinsdorf, Gar, Pax, Boylen, almost all the players), that's a critical mass of suckiness.

What makes Wendell a keeper at this point? He is a keeper but Lavine isn't? Why?

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Mostly because he is 19, plays both sides of the court and he is moderately effective at it. Most of his advanced metrics are better than Lavine's to boot.

I'm not sure about Lavine. I waffle on him. I said some positive things recently but he seems to be the ringleader on the player revolt. When you combine that with his on court defense, offensive decision making and some of the stuff that came up this summer, he may be an attitude guy.

Normally you don't like that type of player. I'm surprised that you wouldn't be one of the most anti-Lavine posters on this site.

Im not sold on Lavine yet or on WCJ.

Lavine seems like the whipping boy though. What stuff came up this summer? I am not seeing this whole attitude thing with Lavine. He is a bad interview but I don't think that is attitude. He isn't D. Rose bad in an interview, but he is pretty close.

Neither Lavine nor Parker are rah rah type guys. Parker has said some things that indicate he could use an attitude adjustment. I haven't heard that from Lavine but I may have missed something.

I said from the start I liked WCJ but he would need to be brought along slowly. Everyone begged for him to start... and Hoiberg obliged. He is getting his ass kicked out there most every game. That didn't accomplish anything.

Overall I think they are both keepers with the right coaching and development. And then I tell myself... good luck with that.

As far as advanced stats... you can't compare a low usage Center to a high usage go-to SG. I would hope you would agree with that.

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[Stratmaster]

Can we wildly and irresponsibly speculate on names here? We know it wasn't Lauri or WCJ who wanted to pull the no-show. And we also know that "veterans" were adamant about showing up. I figure that puts Valentine and Lopez in the clear as well. So who were these 2-3 players? Zach and Jabari?

Reading Zach's comments it didn't sound like it was him. He would qualify more as a vet than Lauri. If Lauri is considered a vet... that only leaves WCJ and Hutch. It was reported that it was not WCJ.

So yeah... at this point it would be wildly irresponsible

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[Stratmaster]

I do think it was mentioned that they planned to go to Holiday's house to wait for their phones to start ringing. So, unless I am mistaken, I think it is safe to assume that he was one of the two or three.

Other than that it is all speculation apart from that Lopez or Markkanen obviously weren't part of it and Carter at the very least came around.

Then it is up for everyone to decide for themselves how far they want to go with the speculation. I guess I feel that I am quite certain of the other rebel just based on a hunch, on the third - no clue.

Where did you see it was holidays house? I missed that.

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It is going to take a while to find it in all this mess. Hold on I will repost it if I can.

Ok. Thanks.

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[sami71]

The first report said there were only 2 or 3 players advocating skipping practice.

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Edited out

Where did you see it was holidays house? I missed that.

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I can not find the source, I am sorry. I edited my post to not spread rumors. I am certain I read it somewhere but without a source I don't think it's fair to leave it there. Who knows, maybe I imagined it, or misread as many search results seemed to have the house thing first and then Holiday and LaVine leading the player meeting next.

Could you edit out the bit from your reply as well, please?

[ATRAIN53]

Boylen messed this up bad.

Guy waits his whole lifetime to get an NBA head Coaching gig.

it's clear the players know he undermined Fred and angled for his job. They don't want or trust him because if they did there would have been some supporting comments from the players about how they wanted to play for the guy.

Instead they see him as a dictator that Paxson assigned and they don't like him and they have zero trust in him.

Instead of coming in and being a dictator who had very little job security - he needed to come in and win those players over and worry about job security later.

I bet Randy Brown saw this happening and was trying to prevent it even after he got snubbed.

I would not be surprised to see Paxson coaching this team down the stretch.

[MissileMike]

Boylen messed this up bad.

Guy waits his whole lifetime to get an NBA head Coaching gig.

it's clear the players know he undermined Fred and angled for his job. They don't want or trust him because if they did there would have been some supporting comments from the players about how they wanted to play for the guy.

Instead they see him as a dictator that Paxson assigned and they don't like him and they have zero trust in him.

Instead of coming in and being a dictator who had very little job security - he needed to come in and win those players over and worry about job security later.

I bet Randy Brown saw this happening and was trying to prevent it even after he got snubbed.

I would not be surprised to see Paxson coaching this team down the stretch.

I think this guy is more likely the next bulls interim coach:

[sami71]

I think this guy is more likely the next bulls interim coach:

Maybe they properly label him an interim coach, this time?

[Stratmaster]

I think this guy is more likely the next bulls interim coach:

Maybe they properly label him an interim coach, this time?

Hey, what about that Doug Collins guy? Where is he now-a-days?

[Nikola]

https://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/basketball/bulls/ct-spt-bulls-jim-boylen-practice-boycott-20181209-story.html

LaVine, who thrived in Hoiberg’s player-friendly system, was the most visibly frustrated Saturday in the postgame locker room. LaVine, along with Justin Holiday, led the players-only meeting.

[Red8911]

Good job by Robin n Lauri

Yeah seriously I didn’t expect them to act like that anyway. When they said 2-3 players started this I knew it had to be Lavine and Holiday involved. Holiday a role player tried to cancel practice lol,that’s ridiculous. If it was any other team he would be the last one to talk. Lavine is out of line as well,sure he’s a top 2 player on this team and obviously hates Boylen but he’s also not a leader nor experienced enough. Watch them both get traded now.

Has there been more information regarding which players started the mutiny? Or is this an assumption that it was either LaVine or Holiday?

There were reports that Lavine and Holiday were the ones who wanted to boycott, maybe Carter too but not sure about him. Then Lauri and Lopez spoke up to stop it.

[Red8911]

I think this guy is more likely the next bulls interim coach:

Maybe they properly label him an interim coach, this time?

Hey, what about that Doug Collins guy? Where is he now-a-days?

He’s giving Paxson advice lol idk what his actual role is in the front office. I’ve been saying for a while now though that he would be perfect coach short term.

[madvillian]

Only the **** KC could write that sentence about Lavine "thriving" under the "player friendly" Hoiberg. These narratives about the good cop bad cop **** with Fred and Boylen are grade school level.

[TyrusRose2425]

Not worried about Lavine. He had every right to be frustrated and combine that with all the losing and this is what you get. Lavine is basically put in a position to be the leader of this team when he isn't a natural leader. Get a better coaching staff that can be respected and add a star player so that Lavine doesn't operate as the face and he'll find his appropriate role in the team and do great at that.

[Red8911]

Boylen messed this up bad.

Guy waits his whole lifetime to get an NBA head Coaching gig.

it's clear the players know he undermined Fred and angled for his job. They don't want or trust him because if they did there would have been some supporting comments from the players about how they wanted to play for the guy.

Instead they see him as a dictator that Paxson assigned and they don't like him and they have zero trust in him.

Instead of coming in and being a dictator who had very little job security - he needed to come in and win those players over and worry about job security later.

I bet Randy Brown saw this happening and was trying to prevent it even after he got snubbed.

I would not be surprised to see Paxson coaching this team down the stretch.

Boylen isn’t great but I think this whole thing was an over reaction. 2 players ( Lavine,Holiday) were frustrated after the game because they got benched and decided to hold a team meeting. This is the dumbest thing I ever heard. I’m surprised front office didn’t just fine those two and move on. I still can’t believe Holiday a role player had the balls to do this lol.

[Axolotl]

Yeah seriously I didn’t expect them to act like that anyway. When they said 2-3 players started this I knew it had to be Lavine and Holiday involved. Holiday a role player tried to cancel practice lol,that’s ridiculous. If it was any other team he would be the last one to talk. Lavine is out of line as well,sure he’s a top 2 player on this team and obviously hates Boylen but he’s also not a leader nor experienced enough. Watch them both get traded now.

Has there been more information regarding which players started the mutiny? Or is this an assumption that it was either LaVine or Holiday?

There were reports that Lavine and Holiday were the ones who wanted to boycott, maybe Carter too but not sure about him. Then Lauri and Lopez spoke up to stop it.

I haven't seen any reports naming the players who advocated the boycott, only seen names of those who were against it. Also, it has been reported that the veterans were against a boycott. I consider Holiday a veteran.