NBA games postponed today p14 Players decide to resume Playoffs

[Andi Obst]

Read the Player's Tribune article by Sterling Brown. If you can't tell what the difference between this and the China situation is for the players, you just actively don't want to understand it.

[dougthonus]

Doug, choosing to be in a profession is fine for various reasons stemming from altruistic motives like wanting to help the community. All the way down to more realistic reasons like good pay and benefits.

On the contrary, being born a certain race or color or ethnicity or religion predisposes the individual to all the advantages and disadvantages that society has already created for that demographic.

There is really no similarity between the two.

There is a similarity between applying negative traits to a group of people that those traits do not apply to because you are too lazy to make a distinction and applying those negative traits unfairly to a group of people whether they are in that group due to choice or lack of choice is a horrible thing to do. That is what I'm describing. How you came to be in that group is irrelevant. Whether it was choice or lack of choice, when people judge people on a group and not as individuals it is bad.

How about religion? Can I discriminate against Muslims? They choose their religion. Their fault. There are some Muslim terrorists out there, can I discriminate against all Muslims because of that? Should I deny all Muslims their rights now? I mean this is actually a very real problem for Muslims and one that is happening in our country today. It's awful, and it's the exact same logic used behind it that we are now forwarding here.

This guy literally just said someone choose to became police so they deserve to be judged negatively because there are some bad cops. Do you really support that? Do you support the literal exact same argument applied to Muslims too? I sure as heck hope the answer is no in both cases.

[moorhosj]

This guy literally just said someone choose to became police so they deserve to be judged negatively because there are some bad cops.

Can you provide the quote where this was "literally just said?" I can't find it.

[FecesOfDeath]

Read the Player's Tribune article by Sterling Brown. If you can't tell what the difference between this and the China situation is for the players, you just actively don't want to understand it.

And then the more comprehensive bodycam video surfaced, which, while not excusing all of the LEOs' behaviors, showed that Mr. Floyd could have more likely died from the fentanyl overdose than from the knee on the back of his neck. A guy who claimed to be claustrophobic while also being the driver of a mid-sized SUV. A guy who said that he couldn't breathe long before he even had a knee on the back of his neck. A guy with the size of an NFL tight end or linebacker who was extremely high but still resisting arrest. A guy whose record includes helping rob a pregnant woman at gunpoint, and whose record would've shown up on every squad car's computer if they had his identification.

[dougthonus]

It's not a reversal. And I dont mind changing if I have evidence to the contrary.

I am saying that:

1) Cops abuse power. I am not talking just racism. I am talking all kinds of abuse of power. They do it without even knowing it in many situations. That's how ingrained it is. I gave you an example of a cop putting on his siren just to get ahead of a busy intersection.

Change cops to "some cops" and sure. Your example is irrelevant, because you don't know how many do this and have no evidence. It's like me giving an example of something negative a tattoo'd person did or a Muslim did, and saying "see, I guess they're all this way".

2) I gave another example here of a supposed good cop like Dirty Harry. The character that is. This is who GOOD COPS aspire to be.

Not evidence based, you have no way to know this is true at all, and to state the obvious, different people have very different aspirations.

Good policing is to stay within the lines of the law. Very few cops do this.

Again, not evidenced based, entirely made up, no reason to think this except you just decided it was true.

Even now, it's coming out that the Kenosha PD called for armed militias and actively funneled protesters into the armed militia.

I'm not really familiar enough with this issue, but given that protesters were rampantly destroying property and presenting a danger to people, this doesn't off the cuff seem unreasonable or like a bad idea. Not being deeply familiar with it though, I freely admit that there might be reasons why this was awful that I'm unaware of.

It's very difficult for me to pretend that the good cops that are out there even if they are a majority say 60 percent are enough for me to change my views on the gross abuse of power that the remaining 40 percent engage in.

Earlier it was 10-15% are bad cops, now its 40% are bad cops? Again, you just make up numbers however you see fit to back up your opinion. You literally are inventing fact and evidence. It simply isn't necessary to do that to affect change or say change is important, and in my opinion, it actually makes change far less likely.

This isnt about racism and racist cops. Racism is just one of MANY ways in which cops manifest their abuse of power.

I agree, but again, replace "cops" with "some cops". Not everyone is out there abusing power. I do agree, absolutely, that we need to change things at a system level. I just don't think it is ever appropriate to group everyone together when clearly a huge percentage of people do not belong in that group.

You could think almost every single one of these things and just apply that logic to the people it applies to instead of everyone and then you and I would be on the same page.

[cjbulls]

Avoiding conflict from some “oppressors” so you can take their money is hypocritical when you are trying to take a large stand against other oppressors.

It isn't about the money though. It is about how much they care about the issue. The NBA is absolutely losing money over the social protest now, and many players seem content to give up huge amounts of money to forward this issue, because this issue is super important to them.

They aren't willing to give up massive amounts of money on the China issue, because probably like most of America, they would think its bad, but simply don't feel passionately enough about it to massively impact their own finances for it (unlike most of the rest of us whom think its bad and aren't even willing to minorly impact our finances by boycotting Chinese products).

On social injustice, they care enough that they are willing to take a large financial hit.

They just care differently about these issues. The reasons why they feel differently about them are blatantly obvious. One impacts all of them personally and one is half way around the world and isn't in their face. However, the amount he players are willing to risk over the season is much more than the Chinese revenue. The social protesting could cut the value of the league in half or more in the worst case scenarios.

The whole point of BLM is to get other groups not affected by the issue to take interest and make changes. It’s tough to ask others to support your plight while undermining another’s similar plight, and even tougher when the only reason you aren’t supporting that other plight is because it would hurt your millionaire bottom line.

[Jcool0]

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[cjbulls]

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Disappointing. They had a chance to make a stand

[dougthonus]

Basically, you're saying that if you were to have a cordial relationship with a LEO, you no longer support the black lives matter movement. That's the inductive reasoning you wish to employ with an individual's consumerist decisions.

If you read my other posts, you will see that I'm very explicit about separating out systemic problems and bad actors from other people. I do not believe that police are bad intrinsically and have argued tremendously against grouping them all together in this thread.

I absolutely sever ties from people I view as racist though in my personal life.

[DASMACKDOWN]

My guess was they would boycott yesterday and today and probably resume Friday

[musiqsoulchild]

It's not a reversal. And I dont mind changing if I have evidence to the contrary.

I am saying that:

1) Cops abuse power. I am not talking just racism. I am talking all kinds of abuse of power. They do it without even knowing it in many situations. That's how ingrained it is. I gave you an example of a cop putting on his siren just to get ahead of a busy intersection.

Change cops to "some cops" and sure. Your example is irrelevant, because you don't know how many do this and have no evidence. It's like me giving an example of something negative a tattoo'd person did or a Muslim did, and saying "see, I guess they're all this way".

2) I gave another example here of a supposed good cop like Dirty Harry. The character that is. This is who GOOD COPS aspire to be.

Not evidence based, you have no way to know this is true at all, and to state the obvious, different people have very different aspirations.

Good policing is to stay within the lines of the law. Very few cops do this.

Again, not evidenced based, entirely made up, no reason to think this except you just decided it was true.

Even now, it's coming out that the Kenosha PD called for armed militias and actively funneled protesters into the armed militia.

I'm not really familiar enough with this issue, but given that protesters were rampantly destroying property and presenting a danger to people, this doesn't off the cuff seem unreasonable or like a bad idea. Not being deeply familiar with it though, I freely admit that there might be reasons why this was awful that I'm unaware of.

It's very difficult for me to pretend that the good cops that are out there even if they are a majority say 60 percent are enough for me to change my views on the gross abuse of power that the remaining 40 percent engage in.

Earlier it was 10-15% are bad cops, now its 40% are bad cops? Again, you just make up numbers however you see fit to back up your opinion. You literally are inventing fact and evidence. It simply isn't necessary to do that to affect change or say change is important, and in my opinion, it actually makes change far less likely.

This isnt about racism and racist cops. Racism is just one of MANY ways in which cops manifest their abuse of power.

I agree, but again, replace "cops" with "some cops". Not everyone is out there abusing power. I do agree, absolutely, that we need to change things at a system level. I just don't think it is ever appropriate to group everyone together when clearly a huge percentage of people do not belong in that group.

You could think almost every single one of these things and just apply that logic to the people it applies to instead of everyone and then you and I would be on the same page.

I think you're trying to prove me wrong.

I am not trying to do that.

There is no facts - there are only studies.

I have arbitrary numbers like 15 percent and 40 percent to show relative size of problem. So we cab have a conversation and advance it forward.

Not so you can attack those numbers.

If you have actual numbers please put them out.

My arbitrary numbers are:
15 percent of all cops are racist
40 percent of all cops abuse power

The point is NOT about the percentages. The point is that Abuse of Power is a superset of Racism.

[DASMACKDOWN]

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[CBS7]

It's like me giving an example of something negative a tattoo'd person did or a Muslim did, and saying "see, I guess they're all this way"

Whenever a person who identifies as a Muslim commits an act of terror, they are pretty much universally condemned by Muslims across social media and in reality. Especially Western Muslims.

Whenever a cop commits an act of extreme police brutality, their organization attempts to cover their asses, make excuses for them, is reluctant to punish them, and attempts to get them off easier.

I don't think ACAB. I think there are only a handful of truly evil, violent cops. However the fact that the entire organization seems to rally to protect those evil violent cops is a huge issue, and rots it to its core.

Islam/Muslims is/are not a concrete organization. Neither are tattooed people. Police forces are.

[cjbulls]

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They accomplished nothing. The equivalent of a child stamping their feet and then listening to their parents.

Maybe nothing was to be gained by continuing, but it feels like they undermined yesterday’s walkout.

[Mbrahv0528]

Now if it was a car full of White women do you think the police would’ve acted that way?

Women, probably not. Men, very possible.

There are sh*tty cops out there. You can find countless incidents of white guys getting shot by the cops in eerily similar circumstances to the high-profile cases that get publicized.

I'm sorry, but this is bull. If it was white people in general, the cops are NOT reacting that way. Period. The cognitive dissonance is real.

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[CBS7]

Now if it was a car full of White women do you think the police would’ve acted that way?

Women, probably not. Men, very possible.

There are sh*tty cops out there. You can find countless incidents of white guys getting shot by the cops in eerily similar circumstances to the high-profile cases that get publicized.

I'm sorry, but this is bull. If it was white people in general, the cops are NOT reacting that way. Period. The cognitive dissonance is real.

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I mean.. it depends on the cop. I agree its less likely, but not impossible that they would react that way if the dude was white. Cops have been known to shoot unarmed white people too.

Racism comes into play for sure, but I think bad, undertrained, corrupt police is just as big of a problem.

[BahamaBull]

Not surprised at all the season is coming back.

Too much money/future implications on the table.

[dougthonus]

I think you're trying to prove me wrong.

No, I'm trying to get you to stop applying things with a broad brush to everyone instead of the groups they apply to. That is it. Literally that is all. You even said a few posts back that you call bad cops bad cops and good cops good cops, and then here you are again, applying negative traits to all cops.

Again, literally, the only thing I'm saying is speak about the things that need to change and not painting with a broad brush over everyone that doesn't exhibit those traits.

There is no facts - there are only studies.

Okay, what study show cops negative behavior is due to aspiring to be like Dirty Harry. What study shows how many cops turn on their sirens to avoid stoplights. If you have studies behind these things that you seem to believe all cops do, then I'll completely agree if the studies show this is true.

If you have actual numbers please put them out.

My arbitrary numbers are:
15 percent of all cops are racist
40 percent of all cops abuse power

The point is NOT about the percentages. The point is that Abuse of Power is a superset of Racism.

I agree it's not about numbers. It's about grouping what ever number you believe is bad in the bad group, and not applying those traits to whatever the 100-X number is (in this case the 60% of cops by your numbers) which are being grossly and unfairly maligned.

When I point out that you are maligning a group, of which 60% you feel are innocent, instead of simply saying yes, I don't mean this towards this group, you repeatedly double down on why it is okay to malign all police.

I think this is an important behavior for a few reasons:
1: Grouping individuals and ascribing them negative traits due to the behavior of a minority of individual is the excuse for all kinds of discrimination.
2: Grouping people in this way puts the blame on the individuals instead of on the system, and there is no practical way to swap out all the individuals, and since you want to swap them all out and not just the bad ones, you will won't be successful anyway.
3: It ignores what could actually improve things in a shorter time frame which is incentivizing the changes you want to see.

Just throwing out stuff why all cops are bad is a way to quickly express anger but also a way to never affect or impact change. It puts you in a starting place where change is virtually impossible.

[cjbulls]

Not surprised at all the season is coming back.

Too much money/future implications on the table.

What if every team’s star player left and they continued the playoffs. That would send a powerful message and keep people getting paid who need it. They could even spin it in a way that’s like, it could have been LeBron who was the victim, or Giannis or whoever.

I actually might be more inclined to watch!

[dougthonus]

This guy literally just said someone choose to became police so they deserve to be judged negatively because there are some bad cops.

Can you provide the quote where this was "literally just said?" I can't find it.

This argument immediately falls apart when you consider that police officers choose to join that profession while black people don't really have a choice in being black.

You have literally said that if you choose to be in a group, then it is okay to discriminate against that group. So again, if its Muslims, and people choose to be Muslim, is it okay to discriminate against them? I sure hope the answer is no.