2020-21 RealGM All-Season POY & Other Awards Discussion Thread

[Texas Chuck]

With Schlenk, this was a guy not on my mind at all until the Philly upset if I'm honest. With that victory though it really reframed things for me. While this award this year is not about the 2018 draft, the idea of giving this award to a guy who made a trade to build his roster around Not-Luka seemed crazy until I actually started viewing the Hawks as a serious contender.

I'm still not sure I can make myself pick Schlenk over Marks because the upside of his moves just isn't on the same scale. But dang if he didn't make great moves this year - Capela, Bogdanovic, McMillan. He feels to me like a guy who perhaps decided to go with Trae because he had a clear vision for how to build around a traditionally-sized point guard - and I recall that he was with Golden State and advocated for the drafting of Draymond Green for a roster being built around Steph Curry.

I look over by contrast at Dallas and I see unicorn struggles. They know Luka is really, really good, but they're still trying to figure out what the team around him should actually look like, and after a couple of pretty dang understandable misses, poof, they lost their jobs.

To attribute all of Schlenk's relative success to Dallas to this point to his GMing calculus is not realistic, but you can't deny that he's brought the Hawks more long-term excitement than I can ever remember them having by building smart around a player he traded for against prevailing wisdom. It's pretty bad ass.

I think my issue with Schlenk is that this year his moves just aren't enough. Capela was made last year even though he didn't get to contribute. And Trae was obviously 3 years ago. Bogdan was a good signing. Gallo was okay but overpaid and that $5M gtd on the third year was a mistake. Just pay him a bit more over the 2 years and don't sign Dunn or Rondo both of whom were flops btw. He salvaged Rondo by trading him for Lou and getting off that last year and somehow getting picks on top of it, but still that's one good signing and while I like Okongwu's potential he clearly left talent on the board in the draft too.

For me its Jones or Marks or a couple guys I'll mention below and I tend not to give the executive too much credit for the obvious. Harden wants to come here. Okay any GM could load up all the assets they could find and trade for him. It took guts to trade for Paul who was traded as a bad contract just a year before and now was a year older and you know all about the narrative around him because you mention it regularly. Then signing Crowder on top of that. Saric another nice pickup though probably overpaid. Payne was last year, but late so if he counts then that's a lot of big decisions made right this year.



Presti has to be mentioned. Just an absolute masterclass in asset accumulation over the season and still doing it while the playoffs were going on with the Horford/Kemba deal. Yes ultimately it matters what he does with them, but even The Process never collected like this and it might honestly be just a one year tank for him.

Horst really screwed up the Bogdan signing or the governor's kid did I guess. But even with that he added Jrue and Tucker and got Giannis locked up for 5 years in Milwaukee and never had to sweat FA. Can't have a list and not include him. As Donnie Nelson used to always remind Mavs fans, don't take Dirk re-signing for granted. It's a huge deal every time it happens. Giannis signing enormous. Just massive.

I think for me its going to be

1. Jones
2. Horst
3. Presti

HM to Marks for doing the obvious. And Horst wins this going away if the Bogdan deal doesn't fall apart. I think the Bucks are walk-in champions with him on the roster.

[Doctor MJ]

With Schlenk, this was a guy not on my mind at all until the Philly upset if I'm honest. With that victory though it really reframed things for me. While this award this year is not about the 2018 draft, the idea of giving this award to a guy who made a trade to build his roster around Not-Luka seemed crazy until I actually started viewing the Hawks as a serious contender.

I'm still not sure I can make myself pick Schlenk over Marks because the upside of his moves just isn't on the same scale. But dang if he didn't make great moves this year - Capela, Bogdanovic, McMillan. He feels to me like a guy who perhaps decided to go with Trae because he had a clear vision for how to build around a traditionally-sized point guard - and I recall that he was with Golden State and advocated for the drafting of Draymond Green for a roster being built around Steph Curry.

I look over by contrast at Dallas and I see unicorn struggles. They know Luka is really, really good, but they're still trying to figure out what the team around him should actually look like, and after a couple of pretty dang understandable misses, poof, they lost their jobs.

To attribute all of Schlenk's relative success to Dallas to this point to his GMing calculus is not realistic, but you can't deny that he's brought the Hawks more long-term excitement than I can ever remember them having by building smart around a player he traded for against prevailing wisdom. It's pretty bad ass.

I think my issue with Schlenk is that this year his moves just aren't enough. Capela was made last year even though he didn't get to contribute. And Trae was obviously 3 years ago. Bogdan was a good signing. Gallo was okay but overpaid and that $5M gtd on the third year was a mistake. Just pay him a bit more over the 2 years and don't sign Dunn or Rondo both of whom were flops btw. He salvaged Rondo by trading him for Lou and getting off that last year and somehow getting picks on top of it, but still that's one good signing and while I like Okongwu's potential he clearly left talent on the board in the draft too.

For me its Jones or Marks or a couple guys I'll mention below and I tend not to give the executive too much credit for the obvious. Harden wants to come here. Okay any GM could load up all the assets they could find and trade for him. It took guts to trade for Paul who was traded as a bad contract just a year before and now was a year older and you know all about the narrative around him because you mention it regularly. Then signing Crowder on top of that. Saric another nice pickup though probably overpaid. Payne was last year, but late so if he counts then that's a lot of big decisions made right this year.

Understandable thoughts, and you're right that the Capela trade was technically last season.

The Harden thing is a bit tricky to allocate credit for because he wanted to come because KD/Kyrie was already there, but Marks is the one who persuaded KD/Kyrie to come. Different people can disagree on how to count stuff but Harden was THE get of the year, and Marks was part of why they got him.

Re: It took guts to trade for Paul. Sure, but this is another way of saying that he was gambling on something that might ruin the young core that was handed to him by another GM. It's great it worked out, but it's weird to me to talk as if getting Paul should be seen as a bigger deal than getting Harden because Paul might have sucked.

Presti has to be mentioned. Just an absolute masterclass in asset accumulation over the season and still doing it while the playoffs were going on with the Horford/Kemba deal. Yes ultimately it matters what he does with them, but even The Process never collected like this and it might honestly be just a one year tank for him.

Ugh, does he again? We already gave him the award last year for this behavior that he's only doing because he blew it when he had the most talented core he'll ever have. I gave him a 3rd place vote last time, I don't think I'll be considering him at all until he actually makes a good team again.

Horst really screwed up the Bogdan signing or the governor's kid did I guess. But even with that he added Jrue and Tucker and got Giannis locked up for 5 years in Milwaukee and never had to sweat FA. Can't have a list and not include him. As Donnie Nelson used to always remind Mavs fans, don't take Dirk re-signing for granted. It's a huge deal every time it happens. Giannis signing enormous. Just massive.

Interesting. You've got a point that Horst should definitely get some credit for re-signing Giannis...but if he had Lebron/Luka's personality, he'd have bolted. This wasn't a case of the Bucks doing such a great job that Giannis felt leaving would mean going somewhere less competent, this was a case of Giannis deciding to stick around in spite of the screw ups. I really don't think Giannis re-signing in Milwaukee amounts to Horst winning a fair race against other execs. I think Horst just got really lucky.

Re: Added Jrue. To me the only way this is clinched to be a great move if it's the reason why Giannis decided to re-sign. It's true that the Bucks are in the finals now and if they win the move will then basically be clinched as a success story, but Jrue remains to this point a one-time all-star with 12 years of wear on him who is going to be paid 35 mill for his 16th season in the league, and if they don't win this series right now, they probably never will.

I'll also note that I was under the impression that the Bucks could have had Paul if they wanted. I'm not saying they were wrong to go with Jrue necessarily, but it was a choice, and through this season, hard not to go with Paul. Over the entirety of Jrue's new contract it's reasonable to think about his youth advantage over Paul in theory, but if Paul leads the Suns to the title over Jrue and the Bucks in the year where the Bucks were given their best chance to win, ouch. To me that stings.

Re: Tucker. Agree, love that move.

[MarxyLebronist]

Spoiler:

Here's where I'm at after the conference finals.

POY - no change

1. Jokic
2. Giannis
3. Curry
4. Embiid
5. What feels like a 14-way tie

My only change is that Giannis has closed the gap on Jokic, but the gap is still there. It's still possible for him to pass Jokic with a terrific finals.

My previous write-up:

Jokic is still clearly my number one, but the gap I had between him and the field has closed significantly. Jokic put up really good box score stats in his playoff run, but his defense was not good, and Ayton was able to somewhat limit him. It's not Jokic's fault that half his team was hurt and he was playing with scrubs at both guard spots against a team with excellent guards, but despite the counting stats, I still came away from the Phoenix series with too much of a meh feeling. I'm trying hard to stick with my resolve that the RS counts for a lot and that he dominated the RS from an MVP standpoint.

We'll see about Giannis. He's the only one I can see that has a chance to overtake Jokic. He wasn't off to a great PS start, but he closed really well against the Nets. He had an under-the-radar RS that means he wasn't that far behind Jokic to begin with.

Curry was unbelievably good this season. The on/off numbers are staggering. Once Wiseman and Oubre were hurt and the team was no longer in development mode (Wiseman) or don't-want-to-hurt-your-ego mode (Oubre), they went for wins, Curry went nuclear, and they shoulda coulda woulda made the playoffs. I watched him game after game, and Curry was special. I always considered him among the best ceiling raisers ever for a championship-level team but didn't think he was that good of a floor raiser for a lousy team, but this season proved me wrong on that count.

Embiid is really good on both ends and has the impact stats to back that up. But he missed too many games, he got hurt again in the playoffs, and he faded late in games too often. He's just not durable. His PS production was good, but his efficiency was down significantly. He was much less impactful defensively. Some of that is due to playing with a knee injury, and some to the general team dysfunction, but this was not that great of a PS for him.

As for the fifth spot, I suppose if push comes to shove, I'd pick Lillard. Impact stats say this should be Gobert, but I can't get over what I saw in the Clippers series, which is that preventing the opponent from shooting layups is only so much of a benefit when they're raining threes on you. It's not Gobert's fault that they were raining threes, but he couldn't do anything about it either. And his lack of offensive game, just hoping beyond hope each game that he could make himself useful on that end, that hurts his case. I really liked Utah and wanted them to win, and it's too bad Conley was out and Mitchell was still hurt, but everybody's dealing with something. Gobert just wasn't close to being the most important player in the series.

Durant was awesome, but the RS counts, and he only played 35 games. Kawhi missed too many games, and like Doctor MJ said, it doesn't look good for Kawhi that the Clippers in general and Paul George in particular actually look better with him out. James Harden was great but missed too many games. Luka was great but not as good when you do a deep dive, and he faded in most PS games. Everyone else has issues.

DPOY - no change

1. Rudy Gobert
2. Draymond Green
3. Ben Simmons
4. Joel Embiid
5. Deandre Ayton

The top four are here based on the RS, Ayton based on the PS. Ayton looking really good, but I don't see any way for him to dislodge those above him. Since those above him are all out, this is likely set.

MIP - no change

1. Deandre Ayton
2. Julius Randle
3. Michael Porter, Jr.
4. Zion Williamson
5. Andrew Wiggins

Ayton continues to benefit from a strong PS, and I'm feeling even better about that pick. I don't think Wiggins has been mentioned much, but he should be recognized for becoming a very good defender after having a reputation as someone who didn't have effort or focus on that end.

COY - no change

1. Monty Williams
2. Nate McMillan
3. Steve Nash
4. Taylor Jenkins
5. Quin Snyder

This feels set at this point. Lue deserves an HM, which I hadn't given him previously. I can't bring myself to include Thibodeau after their lousy showing in the PS.

EOY - no change

1. Sean Marks
2. James Jones
3. Travis Schlenk

This one is set. No one else stands out to me.

Wow imagine saying this YESTERDAY, and shadowing me for weeks now.

Anyhoo, now that we're here since you can't argue with the truths I spun:
PLEASE ban me. I reported blackface by a bad faith rich white Bay Area kid, you threw the technicalities book at me, without comment, instead of dealing with it or acknowledging. You had a chance to rise above, change the game, be more than online poster war nerds.
But nope.
Same as a decade ago.

[Texas Chuck]

Remember though Horst's plan was Jrue and Bogdan. Which I think you can argue over just Paul. You can certainly argue just Paul of course as he's the singular best player, but the plan was solid. Just got messed up. And Jrue is like the PG trade for the Clippers. That was also the cost for KAwhi so not an overpay. Jrue was what convinced Giannis in some part so absolutely worth it.

Oh one more bad thing on Schlenk I forgot. But the Collins situation. I thought he was smart to hold to his number on the extension but once Collins declined it then trade him for value. He's a good young player, but once he's making $25M or more per year he's a bad contract. And now the team had a deep run so Collins is going to have additional leverage and I don't trust Schlenk to hold the line again because now it will tick off fans that "you let talent leave for nothing" so he probably creates a problem by overpaying Collins with more important players needing to get paid soon.

GM's have to stay ahead of the contract curve particularly since in his wildest dreams he didn't think he had a conference final team where you justify just letting Collins play out the year because you need him. Just bad asset management likely to be compounded by a bad contract this off-season.

He's getting too much credit for the nice run that was more about players already in house and the coaching change. And while he deserves credit for making that change, not too much because he went into the season with the wrong coach that he picked.

[Outside]

Really impressive performance by Giannis in game 2, especially considering he's not 100 percent.

[Goudelock]

Really impressive performance by Giannis in game 2, especially considering he's not 100 percent.

And maybe it's just me, but it feels like that kind of performance is replicable. He wasn't hitting a ton of threes. He was just getting to the line and dominating the paint, and ocasionally hit a few midrange shots.

If I'm the Bucks, I'm at least feeling good that the game was mostly close despite Middleton and Holliday doing nothing on offense.

[Fadeaway_J]

Really impressive performance by Giannis in game 2, especially considering he's not 100 percent.

And maybe it's just me, but it feels like that kind of performance is replicable. He wasn't hitting a ton of threes. He was just getting to the line and dominating the paint, and ocasionally hit a few midrange shots.

If I'm the Bucks, I'm at least feeling good that the game was mostly close despite Middleton and Holliday doing nothing on offense.

Suns really have no-one who can handle him physically.

Not that it will matter if Middleton and Jrue are shooting 12-37. Jrue's shot selection is truly atrocious.

[GSP]

Bucks will play better at home but Phoenix is arguably the best road team in the league. This was a must win game for Milwaukee. They arent winning 4/5 next games. Theyve lost both Rs games and both playoff games now.

[Peregrine01]

I have a hard time blaming Middleton's and Holiday's struggles solely on them because we saw what they did when Giannis was out against ATL.

[parsnips33]

Really impressive performance by Giannis in game 2, especially considering he's not 100 percent.

And maybe it's just me, but it feels like that kind of performance is replicable. He wasn't hitting a ton of threes. He was just getting to the line and dominating the paint, and ocasionally hit a few midrange shots.

If I'm the Bucks, I'm at least feeling good that the game was mostly close despite Middleton and Holliday doing nothing on offense.

Yeah seems strange considering, but I think Milwaukee can feel pretty good about game 2. Felt the same way about the Clippers after game 2 vs Utah

[Texas Chuck]

I have a hard time blaming Middleton's and Holiday's struggles solely on them because we saw what they did when Giannis was out against ATL.

Sounds like you are blaming their struggles on Giannis. Which is fine, except not if you are excusing the players actually struggling offensively.

Total copout to just say they can't score with Giannis on the court. Bucks had a very good offense all year, Middleton has played with Giannis forever and Jrue was exactly what they wanted all RS long playing with Giannis.

I just can't get behind an argument that says Giannis is more to blame for Middleton and Jrue's offensive struggles than they themselves are.

And sometimes guys just miss shots. Sucks when it happens in Finals games but it doesn't mean there is some fundamental flaw or you can't win with Giannis or Bud is a complete moron. Basketball has a natural variance just like most things in life.

Oh and the Suns are really good.

[TheGOATRises007]

I have a hard time blaming Middleton's and Holiday's struggles solely on them because we saw what they did when Giannis was out against ATL.

This is a Skip Bayless type take

And I think you're a good poster too

[AussieBuck]

Jrue was defended by a gimpy Bogdan in the Atlanta series, that's as easy as it gets for a lead guard.

[Doctor MJ]

I have a hard time blaming Middleton's and Holiday's struggles solely on them because we saw what they did when Giannis was out against ATL.

Sounds like you are blaming their struggles on Giannis. Which is fine, except not if you are excusing the players actually struggling offensively.

Total copout to just say they can't score with Giannis on the court. Bucks had a very good offense all year, Middleton has played with Giannis forever and Jrue was exactly what they wanted all RS long playing with Giannis.

I just can't get behind an argument that says Giannis is more to blame for Middleton and Jrue's offensive struggles than they themselves are.

And sometimes guys just miss shots. Sucks when it happens in Finals games but it doesn't mean there is some fundamental flaw or you can't win with Giannis or Bud is a complete moron. Basketball has a natural variance just like most things in life.

Oh and the Suns are really good.

You make good points. It's important not to reduce the game to simple narrative of "Advanced without him, then lost with him".

With that said, there's a thing I'm always thinking about: How are the sidekicks getting diminished by the star? Yes, there are times when a star allows other players to be way more effective than they would normally be, but when we see the sidekicks look decisive, aggressive, and successful leading the offense when they aren't playing on Giannis' offense, I have to ask whether a part of the issue isn't so much that Giannis doesn't have good enough helpers, and more than at present Giannis and his team aren't really playing in a way that makes it easier for his teammates.

With that said:

Middleton had one good game and is being guarded by a great defender, so that might be all we need to say there.
Holiday is clearly inconsistent offensively even in the best of times.

[LukaTheGOAT]

Your POY is Giannis Antetokounmpo.

[iggymcfrack]

I didn’t think there was any way that Giannis would possibly overtake Jokic for me as POY going into the Finals, but he’s really making me reconsider now. If he keeps playing even close to this level and the Bucks win the title, I think you kinda have to give it to him. Back-to-back 40/10 games on elite efficiency with a bad knee is insane. He definitely seems like he jumped a level.

[Dutchball97]

Giannis is definitely making a case for himself. He's averaging about 35/15/5/1/1 on good efficiency with solid defense in the finals so far. If I'd had to vote right now I'd still go Jokic at #1 but if Giannis keeps this up he'll most likely take the top spot.

For the next 3 spots I'm still undecided between Embiid, Kawhi, Luka, Dame and Curry for the moment. I think Embiid and Kawhi have the best chances with the 3 guards likely fighting for the last spot but I could be swayed from this with good arguments.

[mikejames23]

It's really strange Suns have no answer for Giannis, who's looking like he's Luka vs the Clippers. It's a good thing for the Suns that they can turn Holiday and Middleton into average players, or Giannis would rip them out pretty quickly.

[Peregrine01]

I have a hard time blaming Middleton's and Holiday's struggles solely on them because we saw what they did when Giannis was out against ATL.

This is a Skip Bayless type take

And I think you're a good poster too

I can't blame it solely on them but they absolutely do deserve some of the blame. From what I've seen, they just seem more comfortable playing when Giannis is out - it looks like they have more room to operate, more space to work with and have the ball in their hands more. With Giannis in, they look out of sorts - sometimes they're passive and just feeding him in the post, sometimes they're rushing their shots and sometimes they just don't have an open look. I think Giannis does have something to do with that, as well as deficiencies in their own games and coaching.

What I meant in my original post is that I don't think it's fair to just crap on someone for their poor play when basketball is a team game and the circumstances around players play a big part in how they perform.

[iggymcfrack]

I have a hard time blaming Middleton's and Holiday's struggles solely on them because we saw what they did when Giannis was out against ATL.

This is a Skip Bayless type take

And I think you're a good poster too

I can't blame it solely on them but they absolutely do deserve some of the blame. From what I've seen, they just seem more comfortable playing when Giannis is out - it looks like they have more room to operate, more space to work with and have the ball in their hands more. With Giannis in, they look out of sorts - sometimes they're passive and just feeding him in the post, sometimes they're rushing their shots and sometimes they just don't have an open look. I think Giannis does have something to do with that, as well as deficiencies in their own games and coaching.

What I meant in my original post is that I don't think it's fair to just crap on someone for their poor play when basketball is a team game and the circumstances around players play a big part in how they perform.

There’s also just some natural variance in performance and the fact that the Hawks aren’t a very good defensive team when Trae Young’s trying to play on one leg. For the playoffs, the Bucks are 10.6 points better per 48 minutes with Giannis on the floor than they are with him on the bench.