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OT: Highland Park 4th of July Parade Mass Shooting

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Re: OT: Highland Park 4th of July Parade Mass Shooting 

Post#261 » by League Circles » Thu Jul 7, 2022 1:00 am

Stratmaster wrote:
League Circles wrote:
Stratmaster wrote:You ban high capacity, rapid firing guns and magazines.

The problem is that defining these is not at all clear cut. But we can try. What capacity and rate of fire do you propose banning?
You're asking for my opinion. I will give it to you. But as I said in my list post there are all kinds of people smarter than me on this subject.

But I will give you my opinion and ask that you not do what you did with the semantics game.

If it were up to me, no gun sold to civilians would shoot more than 6 bullets without reloading.


I don't think this number of 6 is particularly unreasonable, so I might be open to it, but a few huge questions would need to be considered:

Would this be for only new purchases or would the hundreds of millions of guns already in circulation that exceed 6 round capacity be immediately illegal? If only for new purchases, it's hard to justify why people late to the game have to protect themselves with a fraction of the firepower of others. If applicable to existing owners, I think you'd have to have a buyback program to actually get most people to hand them in. Figure maybe $500 per gun at 300 million guns over 6 rounds (guessing) so maybe $150 billion. Is that worth it to you (considering the most dangerous people won't hand them in at all) ? What penalties should be enforced for those who are found to have not complied with the buy back? Life in prison? A measley 10 years? These are important questions (I'm genuinely interested in any thoughts you have on these I'm not asking rhetorically and implying that you or anyone else has no answers for these)
Reloading would require a fingerprint reactivation process that requires 30 seconds of delay.

This is a total non-starter. The purpose of a gun is to protect you life from imminent danger. 6 rounds for anyone but a near expert shooter is futile in a serious self defense high stress situation, at least with a handgun. 30 seconds is an eternity in that situation.
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Re: OT: Highland Park 4th of July Parade Mass Shooting 

Post#262 » by Sinistar6 » Thu Jul 7, 2022 1:03 am

League Circles wrote:
Dresden wrote:Since meaningful gun control is a non-starter in this country, they should at least be pouring more resources into figuring out what is going with young males in this country that makes them so angry and deranged that they act out in this way. It seems like 90% of these shooters are men under the age of 25. Something is going on in that demographic that is making this a commonplace form of rebellion. Maybe they need more outlets for their aggression, maybe schools/parents/society needs to do a better job with kids that are lonely, picked on, or isolated. So many of these criminals fit the same stereotype- loners with few social contacts. It should be a wake up sign- really should have been ever since Columbine, but it just seems to be getting worse.

As a society, we now idolize fame and attention. That's something new that's developed in recent decades and has really exploded with social media. It's a sickening of the spirit and leaves too many left out youth thinking that what they really need is to make a huge splash to became famous and notorious and finally get a piece of the pie. No value for human life.


So sad in the old days it was bank robbery’s for fame. Now it is a mass shooting. Young kids lost in life taking others down because there is no punishment after suicide. My guess, the highland park shooter chickened out, a coward in every way.

I am trying to have some empathy as there has to be some psychological reason. Please love your families and let them know by your actions.
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Re: OT: Highland Park 4th of July Parade Mass Shooting 

Post#263 » by AshyLarrysDiaper » Thu Jul 7, 2022 1:09 am

Opioids and alcohol aren’t designed to kill. Guns are, and the statistical case for their use in personal protection is very, very shaky.

https://amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/apr/07/guns-handguns-safety-homicide-killing-study

I’ve seen the word “feelings” thrown around in this thread a lot, but if your average gun owner were to compare the statistical likelihood that they’d use a firearm to defend their family with the likelihood that it would be stolen, lost, involved in the accidental death of a child or a suicide, or used against them by the very people they hope to deter… well, they’d probably opt to own one anyway because it makes them *feel* safe, or strong, or as though their connected to a culture they value.

I think it’s positively insane that those feelings are prioritized over innocent lives, especially when you can find many, many examples of strong, effective gun regulation across the world. But, the supposed “facts over feelings” party has a stranglehold on the issue, and the majority of Americans who want to see a change are suffering for it.
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Re: OT: Highland Park 4th of July Parade Mass Shooting 

Post#264 » by Chicago-Bull-E » Thu Jul 7, 2022 1:15 am

TheStig wrote:
Ctownbulls wrote:
TheStig wrote:You're being naive. Do you think these people with this hatred and mission will just fold because a gun is not available? Or more plausible they will find another way. There are plenty of examples of people using cars, knives and bombs. It's not like violent crime will stop the minute guns are not allowed. Like everything else, where there is a will, there is a way.
So is your solution just to say "**** it" it's going to happen anyway?

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Look, Opoids kill more people and is a much higher epidemic. We still have those. Tons of people die from alcohol abuse, dui and alcohol related diseases, we still have that. Why are guns a bigger issue? We love the splashy headline because it's a big event but it's really not a signifigant source of death in this country from legally purchased guns. Most gun violence is from those involved in illegal activity and can't actually legally get a gun.


Has nothing to do with a splashy headline and has everything to do with these being the deaths of absolutely innocent individuals, who didn’t bear responsibility over their deaths. While alcohol abuse, opioids, etc are problematic, there is a personal responsibility in those decisions.

If your city of 50k said “we will randomly kill 10 people every week or month”, yeah, it’s be freaking terrifying. Nothing you can do about it. That’s what mass shootings are.
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Re: OT: Highland Park 4th of July Parade Mass Shooting 

Post#265 » by League Circles » Thu Jul 7, 2022 1:27 am

AshyLarrysDiaper wrote:Opioids and alcohol aren’t designed to kill. Guns are, and the statistical case for their use in personal protection is very, very shaky.

https://amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/apr/07/guns-handguns-safety-homicide-killing-study

I’ve seen the word “feelings” thrown around in this thread a lot, but if your average gun owner were to compare the statistical likelihood that they’d use a firearm to defend their family with the likelihood that it would be stolen, lost, involved in the accidental death of a child or a suicide, or used against them by the very people they hope to deter… well, they’d probably opt to own one anyway because it makes them *feel* safe, or strong, or as though their connected to a culture they value.

I think it’s positively insane that those feelings are prioritized over innocent lives, especially when you can find many, many examples of strong, effective gun regulation across the world. But, the supposed “facts over feelings” party has a stranglehold on the issue, and the majority of Americans who want to see a change are suffering for it.

It isn't an issue of probability. It's a very straightforward issue of an individual right to protect oneself, because the state is not able to do so and never will. We do all sorts of things for security that we know we're likely to lose out on - basically every type of insurance, for example. A gun is the fundamental insurance policy. Just because it's likely to be a waste of money doesn't mean it's not of value. The bolded things are all absolutely trivial things to avoid for any responsible adult.

Are there any examples of countries going from very heavily armed populaces to nearly unarmed via legislation? I'd be curious to know where and when.
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Re: OT: Highland Park 4th of July Parade Mass Shooting 

Post#266 » by League Circles » Thu Jul 7, 2022 1:30 am

Chicago-Bull-E wrote:
TheStig wrote:
Ctownbulls wrote:So is your solution just to say "**** it" it's going to happen anyway?

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Look, Opoids kill more people and is a much higher epidemic. We still have those. Tons of people die from alcohol abuse, dui and alcohol related diseases, we still have that. Why are guns a bigger issue? We love the splashy headline because it's a big event but it's really not a signifigant source of death in this country from legally purchased guns. Most gun violence is from those involved in illegal activity and can't actually legally get a gun.


Has nothing to do with a splashy headline and has everything to do with these being the deaths of absolutely innocent individuals, who didn’t bear responsibility over their deaths. While alcohol abuse, opioids, etc are problematic, there is a personal responsibility in those decisions.

If your city of 50k said “we will randomly kill 10 people every week or month”, yeah, it’s be freaking terrifying. Nothing you can do about it. That’s what mass shootings are.

There is absolutely a personal responsibility element in almost all mass shootings as well, which are almost always between criminals. Random mass shootings are horrific and terrorizing, and we need to decide on good ways to reduce them within reason, but they are a totally different animal than "mass shootings" and are rare.
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Re: OT: Highland Park 4th of July Parade Mass Shooting 

Post#267 » by dougthonus » Thu Jul 7, 2022 2:30 am

League Circles wrote:continuing safety education isn't worthwhile to me. It's trivial to be safe with a gun, just as it is with a car, and a big chunk of people will never be responsible with them. But I just don't think gun accidents are a major problem for society. It's probably pretty rare and almost always impacts the gun user themselves or someone electively in their presence while they're being irresponsible with it


Not sure how it would work with guns, but repeated, differentiated training in other areas changes behaviors.

I like accountability of gun owners - with the exception of legit theft from reasonable security measures (like someone breaks into your house and takes your safe, uses some sort of industrial lazer saw to open it, and uses your gun to commit a murder)


In a lot of areas it comes down to did you take reasonable action. You have to ensure you aren't lending your gun to someone, leaving it where someone can use it, etc... If you take reasonable action (someone steals your weapon), then that would be a valid defense.
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Re: OT: Highland Park 4th of July Parade Mass Shooting 

Post#268 » by panthermark » Thu Jul 7, 2022 2:43 am

Almost Retired wrote:From someone who calls himself "Indianbronsnan" via substack:
“In the Land Cruiser Jeep with the MAC-10 by the seats”

But don’t get too smug, L*beral. Because where the conservative impulse might be stupid, the unexamined moderate and left wing position on guns is (Please Use More Appropriate Word). It manages somehow to have even less merit, on technical and moral premises.

For starters;

Almost all US firearms murders happen in a few cities, perpetrated by young black men with lengthy prior criminal histories, using illegally obtained handguns, and next to no one is killed with ‘assault weapons’.

i.e. laws about long guns are irrelevant to homicides in the US, the caricature of an angry white guy with a gun is only that, a caricature, and laws which materially penalize the criminals causing America’s gun problems will be laws which disproportionately incarcerate blacks (specifically young black men), and more laws restricting legal gun ownership, particularly in jurisdictions with both lots of gun laws and lots of young black men, are not going to help at all.

You have a few options:

you can take my word for the facts that I’ve stated above:
buy my top subscription tier and receive reams of data about it, if you want
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you could do what most Bien-Pensants do; take offense and ignore it
And the popularity of option three is really the core problem because a huge amount of dissembling in the debate on guns in the US, as it rages between sets of more or less educated, well-to-do white people, is that the left conflates two different issues—the schoolyard spree shooter and the street criminal of the city.

This happens because in polite company it feels a whole lot more acceptable to complain about white men with AR-15s than the typical person who murders other people with a gun; a young black kid with a pistol aged about 17, in a city.

Here’s an exercise you could try:

With this FBI UCR data in hand, calculate the percentage of people in the US murdered with a rifle of any kind, and those killed by hands, fists, and feet.

American gun violence becomes acute and high pitched in the summer, going back to a tanpura-style drone in the rest of the year. Predominately black neighborhoods suffer, as almost exclusively black teenagers are initiated into gangs with shootings, settle their trivial beefs over girls, drugs, and ‘respect’, and engage in a cadence of anti-social criminality, using guns they strictly never purchase or own legally, circumventing all kinds of local, State and Federal laws.

Consider this piece by Mother Jones: US Mass Shootings, 1982–2022. They claim there have been…128 mass shootings since 1982, with 1,036 deaths, or something like 0.2% of all homicide deaths in the United States over the past forty years.

But that’s quite strange, because EveryTown says that “there have been 277 mass shootings in the United States, …1565 people shot and killed.” since 2009.

~130 mass shootings over forty years, or over 270 in the last thirteen. This is quite the discrepancy. In a country of 340 million people, we have maybe three “mass shootings” a year or more than twenty? What’s going on? The answer of course, is EveryTown included America’s long running low-intensity warfare between usually black, sometimes Latino, gang members killing each other (and bystanders), and Mother Jones didn’t. When you look at America’s violent crime rates with an honest racial lens, you get a different picture of the country’s safety.

You may expect a link to Stormfront, but you’ll have to settle for The Economist:

Guess how we do in PISA Math, Science, and Reading scores vs Europe & Asia..
White America sits comfortably below the OECD average; Latvia is more violent.

And it’s not a poverty thing, either. When mainstream media does try to talk about poor White Americans (who outnumber the poor of any other racial group combined, by the way, and whose poor occupy the poorest counties in America, by the way), they are begrudgingly forced to admit that in “Appalachia: The big white ghetto”, “the overall crime rate throughout Appalachia is about two thirds the national average, and the rate of violent crime is half the national average.”

White America is absolutely awash in guns, and has been since the country’s founding. Its Revolution was fought with the hunting arms of its rebels, its bloody Civil War and World Wars and later conflicts were fought, and still are fought overwhelmingly, by White American Men from the poor places in America where guns are part of manhood, brawling is common, but crime is rare.

There’s really no reason anymore to suspect that more gun laws are going to make a difference in America’s genuinely bad inner-cities because there’s just no way to enforce them without offending the sensibilities of most progressives.
It’s been tried, you know — it was called Stop and Frisk. It worked. It was tossed.

And it’s not as though progressive demands stop at making American cities more dangerous indirectly via failures to adopt good policies which may be insensitive. Thanks to everyone’s favorite Esperanto speaker, George Soros, America’s cities are filled with DAs, prosecutors, and police chiefs who think criminals are good and cops are bad, and that arresting criminals for murder is racist, etc. Perhaps the worst case is one Larry Krasner, the DA of Philadelphia, whose campaign was bankrolled by Soros to pursue criminal justice reform.


^This...
As a black man, it is embarrassing to admit, but it is the cold, hard, truth.
When I was a FUDD gun owner, it was all feelz. I would say things like: "I don't think anyone needs more than a shotgun. Why does anyone need an assault weapon? I think mags should be capped at 10 rounds. I feel all ammo should be tracked. I fine with new laws that force registration or confiscation or additional taxes, it is for the greater good. I don't care what Scotus said about Heller, I still think we should ban guns unless designed and used for sport shooting or hunting. Why won't those ammosexuals compromise (and get nothing in return)? Why won't they think of the children?"

But as a gun owner looking into different weapons, it became obvious that I would have to open my eyes to the truth, and admit reality. Who is committing all the gun violence, and why should people NOT committing the gun violence be blamed? How are all these infringements that I was OK with actually FIXING anything? Half the stuff I was OK was explicitly illegal and/Unconstitutional. (Newsflash folks, Federal gun registries are SPECIFICALLY forbidden by law. Taxing ammo is unconstitutional. FOID requirements are unconstitutional, but people or states/counties/cities press on anyway).


Honest question. Why would a rural gun owner in Montana willingly give up what they have because some political hack is conflating issues and blaming them for gun violence in Chi-raq (or NY, Los Angeles, Philly, Detroit, Memphis, Houston, DC or Atlanta), while those actually committing crimes are provided with get out of jail cards for "reasons"....only to be back on the streets and committing more crimes within days? All while demanding "Defund the Police" and "Ban Assault Weapons"....knowing that neither one of those are going to solve the core problem. It is easier to blame someone else instead of having that uncomfortable conversation.

A lot of folks know deep down know that this is true, but don't want to admit it. That's OK, I'll admit for you.

Once I found myself in the crosshairs of illegal and unconstitutional "muh feelz" laws, it was the final slap in the face, wake up call I needed. I have no desire to see kids murdered, or to see guns shops on every corner, but having a nervous phone call with a gun rights attorney tends to provide one a certain amount of clarity, and leads to one doing a 180 on a lot of former beliefs which can make one damn near a single issue voter now.

I've committed no crimes and I'm not the source of the problems, so I'm not budging another inch. I want my damn cake back (most gun owners understand this reference).
Jealousy is a sickness.......get well soon....
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Re: OT: Highland Park 4th of July Parade Mass Shooting 

Post#269 » by TheStig » Thu Jul 7, 2022 3:05 am

Chicago-Bull-E wrote:
TheStig wrote:
Ctownbulls wrote:So is your solution just to say "**** it" it's going to happen anyway?

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

Look, Opoids kill more people and is a much higher epidemic. We still have those. Tons of people die from alcohol abuse, dui and alcohol related diseases, we still have that. Why are guns a bigger issue? We love the splashy headline because it's a big event but it's really not a signifigant source of death in this country from legally purchased guns. Most gun violence is from those involved in illegal activity and can't actually legally get a gun.


Has nothing to do with a splashy headline and has everything to do with these being the deaths of absolutely innocent individuals, who didn’t bear responsibility over their deaths. While alcohol abuse, opioids, etc are problematic, there is a personal responsibility in those decisions.

If your city of 50k said “we will randomly kill 10 people every week or month”, yeah, it’s be freaking terrifying. Nothing you can do about it. That’s what mass shootings are.

10 people per month out of 50k is nowhere near the actual number. It's probably 1000x less. Take Highland Park where this happened. Highland Park founded in 1869. This is the first mass shooting 153 years. That's 1 mass shooting death in 15 years and not 10 people per 50k per month.

Now you're going to get many more DUI deaths where someone is killed by a drunk driver than a mass shooter. That happens every night across the chicago area. Are you trying to tell me someone happen to be sharing the road with a drunk driver bears personal responsibility? They're just as innocent as the victims here.
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Re: OT: Highland Park 4th of July Parade Mass Shooting 

Post#270 » by Stratmaster » Thu Jul 7, 2022 3:26 am

League Circles wrote:
Stratmaster wrote:
League Circles wrote:The problem is that defining these is not at all clear cut. But we can try. What capacity and rate of fire do you propose banning?
You're asking for my opinion. I will give it to you. But as I said in my list post there are all kinds of people smarter than me on this subject.

But I will give you my opinion and ask that you not do what you did with the semantics game.

If it were up to me, no gun sold to civilians would shoot more than 6 bullets without reloading.


I don't think this number of 6 is particularly unreasonable, so I might be open to it, but a few huge questions would need to be considered:

Would this be for only new purchases or would the hundreds of millions of guns already in circulation that exceed 6 round capacity be immediately illegal? If only for new purchases, it's hard to justify why people late to the game have to protect themselves with a fraction of the firepower of others. If applicable to existing owners, I think you'd have to have a buyback program to actually get most people to hand them in. Figure maybe $500 per gun at 300 million guns over 6 rounds (guessing) so maybe $150 billion. Is that worth it to you (considering the most dangerous people won't hand them in at all) ? What penalties should be enforced for those who are found to have not complied with the buy back? Life in prison? A measley 10 years? These are important questions (I'm genuinely interested in any thoughts you have on these I'm not asking rhetorically and implying that you or anyone else has no answers for these)
Reloading would require a fingerprint reactivation process that requires 30 seconds of delay.

This is a total non-starter. The purpose of a gun is to protect you life from imminent danger. 6 rounds for anyone but a near expert shooter is futile in a serious self defense high stress situation, at least with a handgun. 30 seconds is an eternity in that situation.
If your life is in imminent danger (the only reason to be shooting in self defense), and you miss the first 6 shots, chances are you are dead. I have never heard of any civilian firing a handgun in self defense and reloading. But I could be wrong, and if so...so be it. I am more interested in the fingerprint being used to prevent someone else from stealing and using a gun, or a child from accidentally discharging it, or a mentally unstable family member using it to kill themselves or others.

If you are using the weapon offensively, more than 6 means you get to kill more people.

But again, as I said. I'm not an expert. All kinds of laws have Grandfather clauses. People who understand guns better than me need to advise.

6 may be the wrong number. How many bullets does a typical handgun shoot before reloading? I believe 10 or 17. Could clips be made for those that hold only 6 or 8 or 10 (whatever number is decided on) ? So maybe all future manufactured clips need to be under that size.

150 billion would absolutely be worth it. If it can be done for 150 billion it should be done tomorrow.

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Re: OT: Highland Park 4th of July Parade Mass Shooting 

Post#271 » by Stratmaster » Thu Jul 7, 2022 3:30 am

League Circles wrote:
Stratmaster wrote:
League Circles wrote:The problem is that defining these is not at all clear cut. But we can try. What capacity and rate of fire do you propose banning?
You're asking for my opinion. I will give it to you. But as I said in my list post there are all kinds of people smarter than me on this subject.

But I will give you my opinion and ask that you not do what you did with the semantics game.

If it were up to me, no gun sold to civilians would shoot more than 6 bullets without reloading.


I don't think this number of 6 is particularly unreasonable, so I might be open to it, but a few huge questions would need to be considered:

Would this be for only new purchases or would the hundreds of millions of guns already in circulation that exceed 6 round capacity be immediately illegal? If only for new purchases, it's hard to justify why people late to the game have to protect themselves with a fraction of the firepower of others. If applicable to existing owners, I think you'd have to have a buyback program to actually get most people to hand them in. Figure maybe $500 per gun at 300 million guns over 6 rounds (guessing) so maybe $150 billion. Is that worth it to you (considering the most dangerous people won't hand them in at all) ? What penalties should be enforced for those who are found to have not complied with the buy back? Life in prison? A measley 10 years? These are important questions (I'm genuinely interested in any thoughts you have on these I'm not asking rhetorically and implying that you or anyone else has no answers for these)
Reloading would require a fingerprint reactivation process that requires 30 seconds of delay.

This is a total non-starter. The purpose of a gun is to protect you life from imminent danger. 6 rounds for anyone but a near expert shooter is futile in a serious self defense high stress situation, at least with a handgun. 30 seconds is an eternity in that situation.
I should add, I have no misconception that all this can happen immediately and at once. The first step is semi automatic weapons not in the handgun class. And when that won't be perfect. What is the saying ? "Do not let the perfect be the enemy of the good"

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Re: OT: Highland Park 4th of July Parade Mass Shooting 

Post#272 » by Chicago-Bull-E » Thu Jul 7, 2022 3:31 am

TheStig wrote:
Chicago-Bull-E wrote:
TheStig wrote:Look, Opoids kill more people and is a much higher epidemic. We still have those. Tons of people die from alcohol abuse, dui and alcohol related diseases, we still have that. Why are guns a bigger issue? We love the splashy headline because it's a big event but it's really not a signifigant source of death in this country from legally purchased guns. Most gun violence is from those involved in illegal activity and can't actually legally get a gun.


Has nothing to do with a splashy headline and has everything to do with these being the deaths of absolutely innocent individuals, who didn’t bear responsibility over their deaths. While alcohol abuse, opioids, etc are problematic, there is a personal responsibility in those decisions.

If your city of 50k said “we will randomly kill 10 people every week or month”, yeah, it’s be freaking terrifying. Nothing you can do about it. That’s what mass shootings are.

10 people per month out of 50k is nowhere near the actual number. It's probably 1000x less. Take Highland Park where this happened. Highland Park founded in 1869. This is the first mass shooting 153 years. That's 1 mass shooting death in 15 years and not 10 people per 50k per month.

Now you're going to get many more DUI deaths where someone is killed by a drunk driver than a mass shooter. That happens every night across the chicago area. Are you trying to tell me someone happen to be sharing the road with a drunk driver bears personal responsibility? They're just as innocent as the victims here.


Whether it’s a month, a year, or 10 years, the thought of random selection death is a fear and reality all Americans will have to face due to mass shootings. We all talk about the results and actual deaths that happen, but the fear and anxiety stemming from this is also very real, and not something that in an ideal world should have to deal with.

We can talk about whataboutisms all we want, but that’s all they are at the end of the day, a diversion or distraction tool and a waste of time. I’d be happy to discuss ways and ideas to prevent drunk driving deaths in the country in a separate topic if you’d like. I’d love to see those go down too. But don’t actually think your whataboutism (and the very, very many used in this thread by others) actually provide meaningful discussion to this topic. They don’t.
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Re: OT: Highland Park 4th of July Parade Mass Shooting 

Post#273 » by Stratmaster » Thu Jul 7, 2022 3:33 am

League Circles wrote:
AshyLarrysDiaper wrote:Opioids and alcohol aren’t designed to kill. Guns are, and the statistical case for their use in personal protection is very, very shaky.

https://amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/apr/07/guns-handguns-safety-homicide-killing-study

I’ve seen the word “feelings” thrown around in this thread a lot, but if your average gun owner were to compare the statistical likelihood that they’d use a firearm to defend their family with the likelihood that it would be stolen, lost, involved in the accidental death of a child or a suicide, or used against them by the very people they hope to deter… well, they’d probably opt to own one anyway because it makes them *feel* safe, or strong, or as though their connected to a culture they value.

I think it’s positively insane that those feelings are prioritized over innocent lives, especially when you can find many, many examples of strong, effective gun regulation across the world. But, the supposed “facts over feelings” party has a stranglehold on the issue, and the majority of Americans who want to see a change are suffering for it.

It isn't an issue of probability. It's a very straightforward issue of an individual right to protect oneself, because the state is not able to do so and never will. We do all sorts of things for security that we know we're likely to lose out on - basically every type of insurance, for example. A gun is the fundamental insurance policy. Just because it's likely to be a waste of money doesn't mean it's not of value. The bolded things are all absolutely trivial things to avoid for any responsible adult.

Are there any examples of countries going from very heavily armed populaces to nearly unarmed via legislation? I'd be curious to know where and when.
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Re: OT: Highland Park 4th of July Parade Mass Shooting 

Post#274 » by TheStig » Thu Jul 7, 2022 3:36 am

panthermark wrote:
_txchilibowl_ wrote:
panthermark wrote:Sure, and the 1st amendment should only apply to items either spoken in person, or written in a physical newspaper, or written on parchment with a feather dipped in ink.

amirite?



If you're a Constitutionalist then technically that is correct. Sort of the problem with using a 232 year old document to run your country.

I'm by no means a strict Constitutionalist.
What I am is a long time (+25 years) gun owner that has never shot, or even pointed a gun at another person.
I used to be all for AWB's because of my feelz, until I started to realize that "feel good" laws which run counter to the Constitution are great all the way up until you find yourself on the other side of that Unconstitutional law without actually committing any crimes. I care less about assault weapons, and more about the assault on laws. How some laws are administered while others are ignored based on popular opinion.
Our state is a wonderful example of "feel good" laws.
In Illinois you need a FOID to purchase a firearm or ammo.
In Illinois you need 16 hours of classroom training, plus pass a written test, and shooting test, to qualify for a concealed carry permit.
The City of Chicago has an AWB.
Cook County has an AWB
The City of Aurora has an AWB.
Highland Park has an AWB.

There are all kinds of mag bans and AWB (Assault Weapon Bans) in place, but none of it stops idiots from shooting each other. Yet all I see are proposal and laws that criminalize ME. As a FOID and Concealed Carry holder, I get background checked by the Illinois State Patrol 360 days a year.
Boo-Boo the fool and his Glock Fo-tay with extendo mag tucked in his waistband does not get background checked ever, nor gives a crap about any of the laws. If he goes to jail, he's out in 3 days and back on the streets because reasons.

What it all equals is this.
Panthermark, even though you follow all the rules, and go through all the background checks, and obey all laws, YOU need to give up more, and be subject to MORE rules and laws and registratins that won't address the root cause, because someone else is acting a fool, and we don't have the will or know-how to address it.
I'm looking at the 2nd Amendment. I'm looking the recent SCOTUS decisions. I'm looking at all of these ridiculous proposals, and I'm thinking...nope. I'm done.
Did you know our FOID has been ruled Unconstitutional? I'm not supposed to need to apply for permission, or pay a fee, to exercise a Constitutional tax. That is called a Poll Tax. AWB's have just been kicked back.
There are tons of state and local laws that are Unconstitutional, and I really did used to be fine with them until I opened my eyes and realized that the laws are not helping, and really only impact the people that pay attention to the laws in the first place. Again, that is all great until some feel good, useless, Unconstitutional law changes on you, and all of a sudden, you would be considered a felon. (Been there, done that, true story).

This is an excellent point. Instead of creating new laws, they need to worry about enforcing the ones they have on the books. We're also concerned with the events of Highland Park that has had very few gun deaths in it's history but is a splashy headline and instead worry about the ones that happen daily on the south side. For 150+ years the people of Highland Park had no fears of guns but everyday armed criminals with illegal weapons on the south side are allowed to terrorize their community for decades.
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Re: OT: Highland Park 4th of July Parade Mass Shooting 

Post#275 » by Stratmaster » Thu Jul 7, 2022 3:41 am

Chicago-Bull-E wrote:
TheStig wrote:
Chicago-Bull-E wrote:
Has nothing to do with a splashy headline and has everything to do with these being the deaths of absolutely innocent individuals, who didn’t bear responsibility over their deaths. While alcohol abuse, opioids, etc are problematic, there is a personal responsibility in those decisions.

If your city of 50k said “we will randomly kill 10 people every week or month”, yeah, it’s be freaking terrifying. Nothing you can do about it. That’s what mass shootings are.

10 people per month out of 50k is nowhere near the actual number. It's probably 1000x less. Take Highland Park where this happened. Highland Park founded in 1869. This is the first mass shooting 153 years. That's 1 mass shooting death in 15 years and not 10 people per 50k per month.

Now you're going to get many more DUI deaths where someone is killed by a drunk driver than a mass shooter. That happens every night across the chicago area. Are you trying to tell me someone happen to be sharing the road with a drunk driver bears personal responsibility? They're just as innocent as the victims here.


Whether it’s a month, a year, or 10 years, the thought of random selection death is a fear and reality all Americans will have to face due to mass shootings. We all talk about the results and actual deaths that happen, but the fear and anxiety stemming from this is also very real, and not something that in an ideal world should have to deal with.

We can talk about whataboutisms all we want, but that’s all they are at the end of the day, a diversion or distraction tool and a waste of time. I’d be happy to discuss ways and ideas to prevent drunk driving deaths in the country in a separate topic if you’d like. I’d love to see those go down too. But don’t actually think your whataboutism (and the very, very many used in this thread by others) actually provide meaningful discussion to this topic. They don’t.
Actually, drunk driving deaths have gone down dramatically ever since.... regulations on car safety and more strict monitoring and punishments were instituted.

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Re: OT: Highland Park 4th of July Parade Mass Shooting 

Post#276 » by TheStig » Thu Jul 7, 2022 3:51 am

Chicago-Bull-E wrote:
TheStig wrote:
Chicago-Bull-E wrote:
Has nothing to do with a splashy headline and has everything to do with these being the deaths of absolutely innocent individuals, who didn’t bear responsibility over their deaths. While alcohol abuse, opioids, etc are problematic, there is a personal responsibility in those decisions.

If your city of 50k said “we will randomly kill 10 people every week or month”, yeah, it’s be freaking terrifying. Nothing you can do about it. That’s what mass shootings are.

10 people per month out of 50k is nowhere near the actual number. It's probably 1000x less. Take Highland Park where this happened. Highland Park founded in 1869. This is the first mass shooting 153 years. That's 1 mass shooting death in 15 years and not 10 people per 50k per month.

Now you're going to get many more DUI deaths where someone is killed by a drunk driver than a mass shooter. That happens every night across the chicago area. Are you trying to tell me someone happen to be sharing the road with a drunk driver bears personal responsibility? They're just as innocent as the victims here.


Whether it’s a month, a year, or 10 years, the thought of random selection death is a fear and reality all Americans will have to face due to mass shootings. We all talk about the results and actual deaths that happen, but the fear and anxiety stemming from this is also very real, and not something that in an ideal world should have to deal with.

We can talk about whataboutisms all we want, but that’s all they are at the end of the day, a diversion or distraction tool and a waste of time. I’d be happy to discuss ways and ideas to prevent drunk driving deaths in the country in a separate topic if you’d like. I’d love to see those go down too. But don’t actually think your whataboutism (and the very, very many used in this thread by others) actually provide meaningful discussion to this topic. They don’t.

It's an entirely irrational fear. We're talking about maybe 100 people per year who die in mass shootings and hundreds of thousands who die in alcohol related deaths a year. You're just watching too much CNN where they try to keep you in fear of their talking points.

It's very sad when these things happen. But again, people are caught up in the splashy headline where it's someone doing a random act of violence in a high profile. Meanwhile, gun violence happens on a daily basis in parts of Chicago. Instead of enforcing the laws on those violating them and taking illegal guns out of the hands of criminals, we're going to place more regulations on a group that is vastly law abiding citizens. Not only will we do that, this incident clearly proved that the bureaucracy failed us in this case as this kid threatened his family and society, rapped about it and they came and took his knives but leg him buy weapons.

I'm sure you'll call this whataboutism but you're trying to prevent something that is a cnn blown out of proportion.. They'll be weapons or items these sick people use with or without guns. The guy in Waukesha killed just as many people with his suv. Timothy McVeigh made a bomb and killed 25x the people. How would a gun ban have saved those people? Do you think if this kid didn't have a gun, he would have just moved on? I don't think that's the case. He spent months planning this.
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Re: OT: Highland Park 4th of July Parade Mass Shooting 

Post#277 » by TheStig » Thu Jul 7, 2022 3:56 am

Stratmaster wrote:
Chicago-Bull-E wrote:
TheStig wrote:10 people per month out of 50k is nowhere near the actual number. It's probably 1000x less. Take Highland Park where this happened. Highland Park founded in 1869. This is the first mass shooting 153 years. That's 1 mass shooting death in 15 years and not 10 people per 50k per month.

Now you're going to get many more DUI deaths where someone is killed by a drunk driver than a mass shooter. That happens every night across the chicago area. Are you trying to tell me someone happen to be sharing the road with a drunk driver bears personal responsibility? They're just as innocent as the victims here.


Whether it’s a month, a year, or 10 years, the thought of random selection death is a fear and reality all Americans will have to face due to mass shootings. We all talk about the results and actual deaths that happen, but the fear and anxiety stemming from this is also very real, and not something that in an ideal world should have to deal with.

We can talk about whataboutisms all we want, but that’s all they are at the end of the day, a diversion or distraction tool and a waste of time. I’d be happy to discuss ways and ideas to prevent drunk driving deaths in the country in a separate topic if you’d like. I’d love to see those go down too. But don’t actually think your whataboutism (and the very, very many used in this thread by others) actually provide meaningful discussion to this topic. They don’t.
Actually, drunk driving deaths have gone down dramatically ever since.... regulations on car safety and more strict monitoring and punishments were instituted.

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That's great to hear. There are 10k+ a year and maybe a 100 mass shooting deaths a year. And by your logic, we should just give everyone a bullet proof vest. That will greatly improve safety from mass shootings.
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Re: OT: Highland Park 4th of July Parade Mass Shooting 

Post#278 » by logical_art » Thu Jul 7, 2022 5:21 am

Any person murdered is a tragedy, obviously, The attention given to mass shootings, often carried out by assault rifles, is massively disproportionate to their share of all murders committed. In 2019, 13,927 people were murdered in the US, according to the FBI. Of those, 364 people were murdered by rifle (which includes assault rifles obviously). That's less than 3 percent of all murders.
6,328 were murdered by pistol (source: https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-2019/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-8.xls).

Gun regulation is political theater pitting liberals vs conservative gun owners, and will have very little effect on the number of people murdered. If we really want to make a dent on murder, we need to go to work in inner cities where most murders occur and where the overwhelming gun of choice is the pistol. We care far less about those victims, despite their far greater number.
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Re: OT: Highland Park 4th of July Parade Mass Shooting 

Post#279 » by Axolotl » Thu Jul 7, 2022 6:47 am

I think mass shootings are derailing the whole discussion (not referring to this discussion here exclusively). They are a part of gun violence, which in turn is a part of a larger issue of gun related incidents harming or killing people.

Also derailing the discussion are the "what about cars, or opioids or *insert other potentially lethal thing*". The purpose of a gun is to kill, that is what they were invented for. Sure, guns are used for sport, because humans have a tendency to turn everything that is measurable into a competition (and also many many things that can't even really be measured).

The regulations on cars are much stricter than regulations on guns - cars must be registered, and you must have a license to drive one. And if you want to drive a truck, you need a specific license for that. There are even regulations on where you can and can't keep your car when you are not using it.

I'll just quote doughthonus here, because he already wrote what I find to be a well thought out list of things that could be done to limit the harm guns do without limiting the right to have guns.

dougthonus wrote:What I don't understand is why are people against:
Gun registration (aimed at reducing illegal guns)
Waiting periods to purchase guns (aimed at stopping people from purchasing in moments of anger)
Licenses to own (which can be revoked based on triggered conditions like felony conditions, restraining order, mental health issues) and require background checks (aimed at reducing access to guns from individuals that may purposefully use them negatively)
Continuing education on safety (aimed at reducing accidents)
Accountability of gun owner for all incidents with their gun (encourages responsible gun ownership)

These all seem like pretty reasonable steps to me that don't infringe on your enjoyment of gun ownership in terms of hunting, shooting at ranges, sport, or your use of guns as a method of home / personal protection.
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Re: OT: Highland Park 4th of July Parade Mass Shooting 

Post#280 » by Guru » Thu Jul 7, 2022 11:53 am

TheStig wrote:
Ctownbulls wrote:
TheStig wrote:You're being naive. Do you think these people with this hatred and mission will just fold because a gun is not available? Or more plausible they will find another way. There are plenty of examples of people using cars, knives and bombs. It's not like violent crime will stop the minute guns are not allowed. Like everything else, where there is a will, there is a way.
So is your solution just to say "**** it" it's going to happen anyway?

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Look, Opoids kill more people and is a much higher epidemic. We still have those. Tons of people die from alcohol abuse, dui and alcohol related diseases, we still have that. Why are guns a bigger issue? We love the splashy headline because it's a big event but it's really not a signifigant source of death in this country from legally purchased guns. Most gun violence is from those involved in illegal activity and can't actually legally get a gun.


Because guns kill other people

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