PG: BENCH SLOBS SHART THE COURT

[bape_lovers]

the bubble year was **** too, people was screaming that we should've traded kawhi/danny because they left in FA

Why almost every other time we have lost a game since the end of the 19/20 season does the PG thread turn into a tank vs. no tank debate?

[Clutch0z24]

Hornets must be a juggernaut with Kon, Miller, Salaun AND Ball.

Or you end up with Tatum/Brown, Shai/Chet/Williams (All lotto picks) , Wemby/Castle/Harper, MJ/Pippen, Magic/Worthy, Bird/McHale, Curry/Klay, Duncan Spurs, Ant Mans T-Wolves, Carter/TMac Raptors...

I mean yes you can look at all the bad examples and say that will be us but imagine every team doing that strat thought this way? Imagine the Spurs never even tried for Wemby and said "Nah we good with Yak/Vessell/Keldon....Reality was Spurs wanted Wemby way before his draft cycle and set themselves up best way to give themselves the best odds for it to become reality and it worked out for them by luck...

You can't point out failing teams with bad draft track records as well and say that is my data to disprove your way of team building....Reality is there are failing stories and also success stories when it comes to that strat to winning....Imo the Raptors best way is the draft because we are not a star players destination and never have been....So drafting a dynasty seems like the more logical approach from my point of view..

But we have also been one of the bad drafting teams the last few years as well so actually my strat would also be a bad one with this current front office in charge...

Also if you look at NBA history the teams that built winners through the draft had much more long lasting staying power with the teams they built than ones put together by trades As teams put together by drafting usually have longer spans of dominance than short lasting ones with trades...Thats mostly because a team has control over said player(s) for much longer (Usually an 8-9 year window with drafted players vs 2-3 yeaars with traded players)

Tatum and Brown were draft picks they traded for.

Shai and Williams were both due to the worst trade in NBA history made by the Clippers - even worse than the Doncic trade.

And then you threw some random teams from decades ago?

wtf?

How long is this tank going for that you have to use example that span decades?

Tanking is fine when something happens that season that forces you to make a decision (The Spurs example with Duncan). You don’t go into a season thinking about tanking for multiple seasons.

Didn't think you were as dense as that Los guy but here we are....

You do realize saying "Tatum, Brown were traded for, and Shai, Williams were traded for....Makes zero difference to your argument? Because at the end of the god damn day they were still high draft picks in the NBA draft and it took them high picks to get the results they wanted right?.....If Raptors have OTHER teams draft picks that are high in the draft it would take THEM players we draft to take us out of team mid we are in now...

Idc how you aquire them because its the same result at the end of the day, high draft pick=better results....Which is my whole god damn point lmao idk why that is so hard for some people like you and others to understand its really not that god damn difficult to understand when there are legit percentages posted all over the internet proving that as fact that the higher you pick in the draft theres a much higher percentage that you get better results....If you go look them graphs about draft percentages you will find it yourself....

You think them high 2026 draft picks OKC has won't make them even more unreal in the following years? It will absolutly make them a even higher level of a basketball team.....Does Bobby have the trading chops to make savy trades like Presti does? Where you can be a championship contender but still are in the top of the draft like OKC has been? Prolly not i don't think Bobby is actually that good and will have this team in team mid for many more years till the ultimate firing and new vision which will be an ultimate blow up + tank again anyways...

So have fun cheering for first and second round exits for a little bit here and then you will be forced to sit through a proper rebuild/tank again anyways in a few years because this team with Barnes as the first option will never make it that far....

Warned, personal attack.

[Clutch0z24]

Shai was not drafted by the Thunder. Tatum/Brown were from the Nets trade. Celtics never tanked for those players.

Spurs were actually a horrid treadmill team for half a decade. They didn’t want to re-sign Murray so they traded him away. They had lost Demar the previous season. They got lucky with Wemby. It helped people forget about how bad they were managed before that. They then got lucky by moving up in the last two drafts.

Your other examples are from like 40 years ago.

Curry/Klay/Dray. Curry and Klay were drafted late in the lottery. Dray was a 2nd rounder. VC/T-Mac? Really? That desperate huh? lol.

Are you that dense? ....Im not talking about how these players ended up on said team....Regardless how they ended up on said team they are still either high end draft picks or lottery picks, last time i checked 11th pick is still a lottery pick?......

Tatum/Brown were both main reasons why the Celtics won their title yes or no? Yes....They are both top 5 picks yes or no? Yes....Shai is a lotto pick yes or no? Yes? , Do OKC need all 3 Shai, Chet, Williams who are all Lotto picks? Yes they need them all to be a dynasty they are becoming, The rest of the examples are teams that were built through the draft that had success doing it that way....Can add the Thompson Pistons in there as well....

I don't give a damn if a team traded for said picks...What it took for these teams to be successfull was to add players within the top parts of the draft to be successfull as a team and potential dynasties....

Until the Raptors make savy trades like they could have done with the 9th pick funny in itself and get future top draft picks in trades than you would have a point....But Bobby does not seem like a savy trader like the OKC have been....(Currently the championship favorite with 2 top picks in 2026 draft)

And you are actually a dumbass if you think Carter/T-Mac have they stayed together would not have been one of the best teams in the NBA....Rookie scale contracts are not like they used to be in that era...Teams have control of their young guys for 8-9 years now...So if we drafted a Carter/T-Mac level duo we have them for many years under our control...So saying thats a deseperate thing to bring up is foolish with the potential a duo like that would have...Both coming from high draft picks btw...

High end talent % come from good draft selections no arguing that....If you are then you don't look at the odds of it much or have no idea what you are talking about....You still have to be a bad team to pick 7th where curry got picked even 11th where Klay got picked....You still have to have a bad record ...GSW Tanked them years they got Curry/Klay....We got the 9th pick last year and we were a 30 win team....So yes higher the lottery pick the better outcome but 7th pick could still end up with a franchise level player if you have a good drafting front office...

But yes there is also luck and skill drafting involved in that strat just like any other strat has even the one you advocate for and what we are trying to do right now involves luck and Savy smart trades....So far Bobby Blundered one trade on the table we will see what he does next this trade deadline...But we also have very minimal trade assets to play with to upgrade significantly anyways...

Some posters will never admit that tanking works. They’ll jump through 1000 hoops before ever admitting it might be a valid rebuilding method. Los was arguing the other day that Detroit’s success “isn’t sustainable long term” even though they are on pace for 60 wins and their 2 best players are under 25. If they won’t admit that maybe, just maybe, tanking helped DET then they won’t ever admit it.

Part of successful tanking is tearing down the team a year early and not a year too late (see: us and our returns for Siakam, OG and FVV). Teams like BOS sold early on KG/Pierce and got surplus draft capital to acquire Tatum and Brown. OKC sold early on PG3 and got SGA and JDub. HOU traded for Durant using excess draft capital. Acquiring surplus draft capital is part of a successful tanking strategy. The Sengun and Duren picks were acquired using excess draft capital from the original tear down. These are the types of swings you can take if you build up your coffers.

Tanking is no longer the single branch strategy posters like Los treats it as. It’s not just purposeful losing with only your own picks. It’s now about getting multiple bites at the apple to improve your overall drafting odds (or to use those surplus assets to acquire help).

The majority of the current best teams in the league engaged in some form of aggressive tanking yet we still have posters who refuse to admit it might be a realistic way to build a team.

1000 percent its about timing and knowing when to move off the assets you have to get the best assets you can to advance your teams asset base to start the ulimate rebuild....Our front office failed in so many ways and only the real smart GMs do it the right way... our front office failed on so many levels....

If that OG/Siakam/FVV core was broken up way sooner and we didn't try to play team middle with the Yak trade we are 10000 percent in a better position as a team today....We get actual top tier assets back for our guys instead of the poopoo platters we got and we also get more assets to make trades/draft picks with....Instead we got dog water and lost to a sad Bulls team in the play ins....This is what team mid advocates refuse to accept that you could be playing the middle and end up with bad or no good results in the playoffs/play ins ever and then what?

Thing with these posters they don't want to admit that building from the middle also takes alot of luck as well because if you don't get lucky on that one trade, or you don't get lucky with low tier draft picks you are trying to build in the middle with dog crap.....

News flash for some of these posters we have been trying to make the Durant/Giannis/Lillard type of trades for god knows how many offseasons now....Thing is we just do not have the assets to get it done or these players refuse to play for Toronto....You think that will change and we will magically land Giannis? The chances of that ....Id put below the 14% you would have in the NBA lottery at about 5% chance....Thats being generous because its prolly a 1% chance in all reality...


Theres 3 ways this goes....Bobby shocks us all and makes some savy trades to make us a legit team, Bobby makes some bad trades for a flawed star with injury concerns or just not that good of stars like Trae/AD....Gives up our future draft capital in the process while the team flames out due to either injuries, old age, or not being good enough and we are in a Nets/Bucks situation where we suck with no draft picks.....Or we try and try to make all the best trades get no where because other teams have better assets to make the trades while we are stuck a few more years with Barnes/Ingram and eventually have to start over and rebuild anyways because this team is never good enough...

I mean it will take extream luck for option one to be the case anyways....

[Clutch0z24]

The Pistons have made the playoffs 3 times in the last 15 years and been first round exits each of those playoff years.

Apparently tanking works guys and girl and this is our example.

The smart teams tank when they have major injuries, or covid or a development season - exactly what the Raptors have done. Detroit is not an example of how you tank lol.

There are three ways to build a team - draft, trade and free agency. If your strategy is to tank every season, good luck to you and your fans.

Piston has not been tanking for 15 years. They torn it down beginning 2019/2020 and had 5 tanking season in a row. Then last two season things started upswinging for them.

Apart from 2017-2019, the team has been a horrible lottery team from 2010-2024. They were a bottom team from 2010-2015, drafted horribly and made horrible trades, which only produced an average team for 3 years and then tanked again for 5 straight seasons.

2010 - 27 wins
2011 - 30 wins
2012 - 25 wins
2013 - 29 wins
2014 - 29 wins
2015 - 32 wins
2016 - 44 wins
2017 - 37 wins
2018 - 39 wins
2019 - 41 wins
2020 - 20 wins
2021 - 20 wins
2022 - 23 wins
2023 - 17 wins
2024 - 14 wins

Pistons started tanking in 2020....Before that they were where all you guys want this team to be at....They were playing team mid with them Drummond teams and trying to compete to make the playoffs with mid teams that had no chance of actually winning in the playoffs....Which ultimatly lead to tanking at the end of the day because them teams were not good enough ever...

Im pretty sure that will be our result as well....We have been no better than the Pistons have been the last 5 years trying to compete with flawed teams....So to make fun of them is pretty funny and you should be looking in the mirror as fans because if we try and compete with a core of Barnes/Ingram with no major upgrades we will be viewed as the Pistons....Infact we get laughed at alot online just like the Pistons would for trying to compete with such low tier rosters and rightfully so....

Everyones points in here about being team mid would be valid if you guys all collectivly believe Barnes will become a franchise, first option, go to guy in the playoffs where he dominates like Kawhi did in 2019....If that is your actual belief and you actually think that will happen you are all okay with thinking that way but if you do not actually believe that you are just delusional about the upside of this team...

[Pointgod]

The Pistons have made the playoffs 3 times in the last 15 years and been first round exits each of those playoff years.

Apparently tanking works guys and girl and this is our example.

The smart teams tank when they have major injuries, or covid or a development season - exactly what the Raptors have done. Detroit is not an example of how you tank lol.

There are three ways to build a team - draft, trade and free agency. If your strategy is to tank every season, good luck to you and your fans.

Piston has not been tanking for 15 years. They torn it down beginning 2019/2020 and had 5 tanking season in a row. Then last two season things started upswinging for them.

Pistons are actually the worst example against tanking. They literally had an all time bad losing streak 2 seasons ago and are now the best team in the East primarily driven by their young talent that they drafted from doing a proper rebuild. The idea that tanking means a team is going to suck forever is such nonsense I can’t believe people still believe it

[Clutch0z24]

Apart from 2017-2019, the team has been a horrible lottery team from 2010-2024. They were a bottom team from 2010-2015, drafted horribly and made horrible trades, which only produced an average team for 3 years and then tanked again for 5 straight seasons.

2010 - 27 wins
2011 - 30 wins
2012 - 25 wins
2013 - 29 wins
2014 - 29 wins
2015 - 32 wins
2016 - 44 wins
2017 - 37 wins
2018 - 39 wins
2019 - 41 wins
2020 - 20 wins
2021 - 20 wins
2022 - 23 wins
2023 - 17 wins
2024 - 14 wins

People constantly misconstrue tanking with just being poorly run. They aren’t the same thing.

No one should be in favor of tanking if Joe Dumars is going to be in charge. Tanking should be a multi part equation: concerted losing + competent management. You need both to have a chance at success.

And then its usually a catch 22 because usually if you have very competent management like the Heat and the Nuggets who draft well and make good trades, you rarely have to ever tank, but you can still be elite.

The Pistons in their current rebuild were horrible for 5 straight years...5 STRAIGHT YEARS...our fan base was entirely fed up after tanking for two straight years. Our fan base would be on collective suicide if we had 5 straight seasons winning only 20, 20, 23, 17 and 14 games, lol. It's coming together now finally after a long time, but man that's a very lengthy tank.

It's also much harder to effectively tank today because the odds aren't even that great for bottom 4 teams anymore.

Yep but this whole team being actually good is on Barnes shoulders and how good he is or becomes....Which for me is a shaky hill to die on....This team will go as far as Barnes takes it. Ingram is the perfect pairing for Barnes so if they end up flaming out in the playoffs badly it will be because Barnes is not that guy....Because we are not making any trades for a player that will carry us like that Kawhi trade did for us again because we lack the assets, Not a players destination...

If Barnes swims and becomes a Giannis level of a playoff performer we have a chance to make a run, If Barnes sinks we are first round fodder and the eventual tank will commence anyways....We will see how things play out but for me personally i don't think Barnes is capable of carrying the team and i don't see a world we upgrade this roster with the minimal trade assets we have for a player to put us over the top...

[Pointgod]

Shai was not drafted by the Thunder. Tatum/Brown were from the Nets trade. Celtics never tanked for those players.

Spurs were actually a horrid treadmill team for half a decade. They didn’t want to re-sign Murray so they traded him away. They had lost Demar the previous season. They got lucky with Wemby. It helped people forget about how bad they were managed before that. They then got lucky by moving up in the last two drafts.

Your other examples are from like 40 years ago.

Curry/Klay/Dray. Curry and Klay were drafted late in the lottery. Dray was a 2nd rounder. VC/T-Mac? Really? That desperate huh? lol.

Are you that dense? ....Im not talking about how these players ended up on said team....Regardless how they ended up on said team they are still either high end draft picks or lottery picks, last time i checked 11th pick is still a lottery pick?......

Tatum/Brown were both main reasons why the Celtics won their title yes or no? Yes....They are both top 5 picks yes or no? Yes....Shai is a lotto pick yes or no? Yes? , Do OKC need all 3 Shai, Chet, Williams who are all Lotto picks? Yes they need them all to be a dynasty they are becoming, The rest of the examples are teams that were built through the draft that had success doing it that way....Can add the Thompson Pistons in there as well....

I don't give a damn if a team traded for said picks...What it took for these teams to be successfull was to add players within the top parts of the draft to be successfull as a team and potential dynasties....

Until the Raptors make savy trades like they could have done with the 9th pick funny in itself and get future top draft picks in trades than you would have a point....But Bobby does not seem like a savy trader like the OKC have been....(Currently the championship favorite with 2 top picks in 2026 draft)

And you are actually a dumbass if you think Carter/T-Mac have they stayed together would not have been one of the best teams in the NBA....Rookie scale contracts are not like they used to be in that era...Teams have control of their young guys for 8-9 years now...So if we drafted a Carter/T-Mac level duo we have them for many years under our control...So saying thats a deseperate thing to bring up is foolish with the potential a duo like that would have...Both coming from high draft picks btw...

High end talent % come from good draft selections no arguing that....If you are then you don't look at the odds of it much or have no idea what you are talking about....You still have to be a bad team to pick 7th where curry got picked even 11th where Klay got picked....You still have to have a bad record ...GSW Tanked them years they got Curry/Klay....We got the 9th pick last year and we were a 30 win team....So yes higher the lottery pick the better outcome but 7th pick could still end up with a franchise level player if you have a good drafting front office...

But yes there is also luck and skill drafting involved in that strat just like any other strat has even the one you advocate for and what we are trying to do right now involves luck and Savy smart trades....So far Bobby Blundered one trade on the table we will see what he does next this trade deadline...But we also have very minimal trade assets to play with to upgrade significantly anyways...

Some posters will never admit that tanking works. They’ll jump through 1000 hoops before ever admitting it might be a valid rebuilding method. Los was arguing the other day that Detroit’s success “isn’t sustainable long term” even though they are on pace for 60 wins and their 2 best players are under 25. If they won’t admit that maybe, just maybe, tanking helped DET then they won’t ever admit it.

Part of successful tanking is tearing down the team a year early and not a year too late (see: us and our returns for Siakam, OG and FVV). Teams like BOS sold early on KG/Pierce and got surplus draft capital to acquire Tatum and Brown. OKC sold early on PG3 and got SGA and JDub. HOU traded for Durant using excess draft capital. Acquiring surplus draft capital is part of a successful tanking strategy. The Sengun and Duren picks were acquired using excess draft capital from the original tear down. These are the types of swings you can take if you build up your coffers.

Tanking is no longer the single branch strategy posters like Los treats it as. It’s not just purposeful losing with only your own picks. It’s now about getting multiple bites at the apple to improve your overall drafting odds (or to use those surplus assets to acquire help).

The majority of the current best teams in the league engaged in some form of aggressive tanking yet we still have posters who refuse to admit it might be a realistic way to build a team.

Couldn’t have said it better myself. You look at the top of the league and see some of the up and coming teams used this approach, It’s the best way to build a sustainable team.

[TheGeneral99]

Are you that dense? ....Im not talking about how these players ended up on said team....Regardless how they ended up on said team they are still either high end draft picks or lottery picks, last time i checked 11th pick is still a lottery pick?......

Tatum/Brown were both main reasons why the Celtics won their title yes or no? Yes....They are both top 5 picks yes or no? Yes....Shai is a lotto pick yes or no? Yes? , Do OKC need all 3 Shai, Chet, Williams who are all Lotto picks? Yes they need them all to be a dynasty they are becoming, The rest of the examples are teams that were built through the draft that had success doing it that way....Can add the Thompson Pistons in there as well....

I don't give a damn if a team traded for said picks...What it took for these teams to be successfull was to add players within the top parts of the draft to be successfull as a team and potential dynasties....

Until the Raptors make savy trades like they could have done with the 9th pick funny in itself and get future top draft picks in trades than you would have a point....But Bobby does not seem like a savy trader like the OKC have been....(Currently the championship favorite with 2 top picks in 2026 draft)

And you are actually a dumbass if you think Carter/T-Mac have they stayed together would not have been one of the best teams in the NBA....Rookie scale contracts are not like they used to be in that era...Teams have control of their young guys for 8-9 years now...So if we drafted a Carter/T-Mac level duo we have them for many years under our control...So saying thats a deseperate thing to bring up is foolish with the potential a duo like that would have...Both coming from high draft picks btw...

High end talent % come from good draft selections no arguing that....If you are then you don't look at the odds of it much or have no idea what you are talking about....You still have to be a bad team to pick 7th where curry got picked even 11th where Klay got picked....You still have to have a bad record ...GSW Tanked them years they got Curry/Klay....We got the 9th pick last year and we were a 30 win team....So yes higher the lottery pick the better outcome but 7th pick could still end up with a franchise level player if you have a good drafting front office...

But yes there is also luck and skill drafting involved in that strat just like any other strat has even the one you advocate for and what we are trying to do right now involves luck and Savy smart trades....So far Bobby Blundered one trade on the table we will see what he does next this trade deadline...But we also have very minimal trade assets to play with to upgrade significantly anyways...

Some posters will never admit that tanking works. They’ll jump through 1000 hoops before ever admitting it might be a valid rebuilding method. Los was arguing the other day that Detroit’s success “isn’t sustainable long term” even though they are on pace for 60 wins and their 2 best players are under 25. If they won’t admit that maybe, just maybe, tanking helped DET then they won’t ever admit it.

Part of successful tanking is tearing down the team a year early and not a year too late (see: us and our returns for Siakam, OG and FVV). Teams like BOS sold early on KG/Pierce and got surplus draft capital to acquire Tatum and Brown. OKC sold early on PG3 and got SGA and JDub. HOU traded for Durant using excess draft capital. Acquiring surplus draft capital is part of a successful tanking strategy. The Sengun and Duren picks were acquired using excess draft capital from the original tear down. These are the types of swings you can take if you build up your coffers.

Tanking is no longer the single branch strategy posters like Los treats it as. It’s not just purposeful losing with only your own picks. It’s now about getting multiple bites at the apple to improve your overall drafting odds (or to use those surplus assets to acquire help).

The majority of the current best teams in the league engaged in some form of aggressive tanking yet we still have posters who refuse to admit it might be a realistic way to build a team.

Couldn’t have said it better myself. You look at the top of the league and see some of the up and coming teams used this approach, It’s the best way to build a sustainable team.

I don't think there is one viable solution here.

There is luck involved, especially when it comes to injuries and lottery odds. A team like the Spurs I believe had like 5th or 6th best odds to get the #1 pick and they did, getting Wemby.

Some teams like Warriors, Raptors Bucks, Heat and Nuggets did not really deliberately tank at all in the late 2000s and early 2010s, were treadmill teams, and still managed to find superstar level talent and build contenders.

Obviously there are teams that tanked where it worked and some where it didn't dependent on a variety of factors.

[Tha Cynic]

Why almost every other time we have lost a game since the end of the 19/20 season does the PG thread turn into a tank vs. no tank debate?

Because we have two posters in here who were silent during the win streak and as soon as there’s a stretch of losing they pop up to re-engage lol.

[Tha Cynic]

Or you end up with Tatum/Brown, Shai/Chet/Williams (All lotto picks) , Wemby/Castle/Harper, MJ/Pippen, Magic/Worthy, Bird/McHale, Curry/Klay, Duncan Spurs, Ant Mans T-Wolves, Carter/TMac Raptors...

I mean yes you can look at all the bad examples and say that will be us but imagine every team doing that strat thought this way? Imagine the Spurs never even tried for Wemby and said "Nah we good with Yak/Vessell/Keldon....Reality was Spurs wanted Wemby way before his draft cycle and set themselves up best way to give themselves the best odds for it to become reality and it worked out for them by luck...

You can't point out failing teams with bad draft track records as well and say that is my data to disprove your way of team building....Reality is there are failing stories and also success stories when it comes to that strat to winning....Imo the Raptors best way is the draft because we are not a star players destination and never have been....So drafting a dynasty seems like the more logical approach from my point of view..

But we have also been one of the bad drafting teams the last few years as well so actually my strat would also be a bad one with this current front office in charge...

Also if you look at NBA history the teams that built winners through the draft had much more long lasting staying power with the teams they built than ones put together by trades As teams put together by drafting usually have longer spans of dominance than short lasting ones with trades...Thats mostly because a team has control over said player(s) for much longer (Usually an 8-9 year window with drafted players vs 2-3 yeaars with traded players)

Tatum and Brown were draft picks they traded for.

Shai and Williams were both due to the worst trade in NBA history made by the Clippers - even worse than the Doncic trade.

And then you threw some random teams from decades ago?

wtf?

How long is this tank going for that you have to use example that span decades?

Tanking is fine when something happens that season that forces you to make a decision (The Spurs example with Duncan). You don’t go into a season thinking about tanking for multiple seasons.

Didn't think you were as dense as that Los guy but here we are....

You do realize saying "Tatum, Brown were traded for, and Shai, Williams were traded for....Makes zero difference to your argument? Because at the end of the god damn day they were still high draft picks in the NBA draft and it took them high picks to get the results they wanted right?.....If Raptors have OTHER teams draft picks that are high in the draft it would take THEM players we draft to take us out of team mid we are in now...

Idc how you aquire them because its the same result at the end of the day, high draft pick=better results....Which is my whole god damn point lmao idk why that is so hard for some people like you and others to understand its really not that god damn difficult to understand when there are legit percentages posted all over the internet proving that as fact that the higher you pick in the draft theres a much higher percentage that you get better results....If you go look them graphs about draft percentages you will find it yourself....

You think them high 2026 draft picks OKC has won't make them even more unreal in the following years? It will absolutly make them a even higher level of a basketball team.....Does Bobby have the trading chops to make savy trades like Presti does? Where you can be a championship contender but still are in the top of the draft like OKC has been? Prolly not i don't think Bobby is actually that good and will have this team in team mid for many more years till the ultimate firing and new vision which will be an ultimate blow up + tank again anyways...

So have fun cheering for first and second round exits for a little bit here and then you will be forced to sit through a proper rebuild/tank again anyways in a few years because this team with Barnes as the first option will never make it that far....

Warned, personal attack.

There have been hundreds of trades and picks over the two decades and you chose and picked the ones where the Nets imploded leading to high picks for the Celtics and that’s your idea of strategy and you’re calling me dense? Not to mention that team had to make numerous trades after years of being similar to the Derozan and Lowry Raptors before they became legit. That’s how luck works lol. If you want to spend a decades tanking and hoping it works while you follow that team, kudos to you. I’m dense so I’m playing percentages not NBa 2k where I can sim a decade till I get hopefully two stars.

There has been zero examples so far that multi year tanks work in your examples. Every team had some sort of major luck in trade or other team not working out after a trade. The strategy here would be trade Barnes to a team that will give you multiple picks and hope that they implode somehow and give you a top 3 pick. Your other example was a case where the team lost their best player for a year and tanked, which is when the Raptors choose to tank and have tanked in recent years.

Find me trade like the trade that OKC made please. Any trade like that with any team in the NBA, since you guys still haven’t realized that you’re using 1-2% occurrences to show how to strategize for organizations worth billions of dollars. Will even Giannis get what OKC got? Is there any GM that stupid?

[pingpongrac]

The Pistons have made the playoffs 3 times in the last 15 years and been first round exits each of those playoff years.

Apparently tanking works guys and girl and this is our example.

The smart teams tank when they have major injuries, or covid or a development season - exactly what the Raptors have done. Detroit is not an example of how you tank lol.

There are three ways to build a team - draft, trade and free agency. If your strategy is to tank every season, good luck to you and your fans.

Piston has not been tanking for 15 years. They torn it down beginning 2019/2020 and had 5 tanking season in a row. Then last two season things started upswinging for them.

Pistons are actually the worst example against tanking. They literally had an all time bad losing streak 2 seasons ago and are now the best team in the East primarily driven by their young talent that they drafted from doing a proper rebuild. The idea that tanking means a team is going to suck forever is such nonsense I can’t believe people still believe it

I mean the Pistons added Beasley (2nd in 6MOY voting and played all 82 games while averaging 28 MPG), Harris (averaged 14/6/2 while playing 73 games as the starting PF/SF) and THJ (37% on 6 3FGA per game while playing 77 games as the starting SG) in the 2024 offseason which largely contributed to their 30-win increase last season. While they are off to a very good start this season and Duren has made a noticeable jump while Cade has also been playing at an All-NBA level, they have again got pretty big contributions from some newly acquired players (Robinson, Green and LeVert). It’s not just because they tanked for half a decade and were terrible for the majority of the 2010s before that they are at the top of the East now.

[Clutch0z24]

Tatum and Brown were draft picks they traded for.

Shai and Williams were both due to the worst trade in NBA history made by the Clippers - even worse than the Doncic trade.

And then you threw some random teams from decades ago?

wtf?

How long is this tank going for that you have to use example that span decades?

Tanking is fine when something happens that season that forces you to make a decision (The Spurs example with Duncan). You don’t go into a season thinking about tanking for multiple seasons.

Didn't think you were as dense as that Los guy but here we are....

You do realize saying "Tatum, Brown were traded for, and Shai, Williams were traded for....Makes zero difference to your argument? Because at the end of the god damn day they were still high draft picks in the NBA draft and it took them high picks to get the results they wanted right?.....If Raptors have OTHER teams draft picks that are high in the draft it would take THEM players we draft to take us out of team mid we are in now...

Idc how you aquire them because its the same result at the end of the day, high draft pick=better results....Which is my whole god damn point lmao idk why that is so hard for some people like you and others to understand its really not that god damn difficult to understand when there are legit percentages posted all over the internet proving that as fact that the higher you pick in the draft theres a much higher percentage that you get better results....If you go look them graphs about draft percentages you will find it yourself....

You think them high 2026 draft picks OKC has won't make them even more unreal in the following years? It will absolutly make them a even higher level of a basketball team.....Does Bobby have the trading chops to make savy trades like Presti does? Where you can be a championship contender but still are in the top of the draft like OKC has been? Prolly not i don't think Bobby is actually that good and will have this team in team mid for many more years till the ultimate firing and new vision which will be an ultimate blow up + tank again anyways...

So have fun cheering for first and second round exits for a little bit here and then you will be forced to sit through a proper rebuild/tank again anyways in a few years because this team with Barnes as the first option will never make it that far....

Warned, personal attack.

There have been hundreds of trades and picks over the two decades and you chose and picked the ones where the Nets imploded leading to high picks for the Celtics and that’s your idea of strategy and you’re calling me dense? Not to mention that team had to make numerous trades after years of being similar to the Derozan and Lowry Raptors before they became legit. That’s how luck works lol. If you want to spend a decades tanking and hoping it works while you follow that team, kudos to you. I’m dense so I’m playing percentages not NBa 2k where I can sim a decade till I get hopefully two stars.

There has been zero examples so far that multi year tanks work in your examples. Every team had some sort of major luck in trade or other team not working out after a trade. The strategy here would be trade Barnes to a team that will give you multiple picks and hope that they implode somehow and give you a top 3 pick. Your other example was a case where the team lost their best player for a year and tanked, which is when the Raptors choose to tank and have tanked in recent years.

Find me trade like the trade that OKC made please. Any trade like that with any team in the NBA, since you guys still haven’t realized that you’re using 1-2% occurrences to show how to strategize for organizations worth billions of dollars is not reality. Will even Giannis get what OKC got? Is there any GM that stupid?

So just because a team "Traded" for the picks that ultimatly ended up being high end draft picks that changes the fact that the talent it took to get that team to another level was ultimatly top draft picks is invalid because they aquired them from a trade? That makes zero sense and is not a valid argument because yes alot of teams that build a sustainable winner they get some sort of high end draft pick majority of the time....NBA History shown that and it takes a very rare curve where a team builds with late draft picks and only late draft picks...

There are multiple examples of how multi year tanks or drafting in the high parts of the draft worked in the past and in the present you just don't want to reconize them because it doesn't suit the weak arguments you are trying to make....

Rockets
Spurs
Pistons
Celtics (Even if it was a trade it took 2 top 5 picks for them to become an actual winner instead of a pretender with the Thomas era teams)
Thunder (Have multiple top picks as their best players, Even shai even if it was a trade Clippers got shai with a Lotto pick at the end of the day)
Timberwolves (Their team has totally changed after drafting Ant Man for the better)

I mean these are the best teams in the NBA right now and they all have something in common....They all have a high end draft pick (s) attached to them....Obvously Celtics are not contenders this year due to Injury but if Tatum comes back tomorrow they are 100 percent in the mix of things....

Playing the middle again like i mention in above posts has its luck of the draw just as much as winning the draft lottery does....About a 3-5% chance we ever trade for a legit franchise player or game changing talent to push us over the top (We lack the assets to get that trade done unless you trade Barnes) At that point you are just building a Bucks level team with a star with not enough depth to actually win...(Funny fact the teams that played the draft like the Spurs/Rockets type of teams are favorited to land Giannis in a trade....Hmm i wonder why....)

Also playing the Middle could result in multiple years of first round exits while never building a proper asset base because chances of drafting OGs, Siakams in the 20s of the draft are very very rare and most likely outcomes are mogbos,Dicks of the world...

So its a gamble either way you try and scream loud and say its not....Again ill bring up a point as well....Making trades for stars also does not have the sustainable winning over a long period of time as Drafting your superstars does because...

1.When you trade for a superstar its usually on the back end of their careers, or they have 1-3 year deals left where they most likely walk in free agency.
2.When you draft your team you have control of these players for 8-9 years so your window of winning is alot longer.
3.You have them on team friendly contracts so you can also build around these players by using money for vets that can help win.

Thats why in the history of the NBA when a team has drafted their stars they have more dynasty % than not...Unless you are the Lakers and get handed every star because of where you are located....

OKC=Current Dynasty= Multiple High end picks Shai/Chet/Williams
Bulls=Dynasty in the 90s=2 top picks with MJ/Pippen
GSW=Dynasty 2 high picks with Curry/Klay
Celtics=Dynasty in the 80s with 2 high picks Bird/McHale
Spurs=Dynasty with Duncan + a very smart front office + Another Dynasty potentially brewing with Wemby/Castle/Harper 3 high picks
Lakers=Dynasty with Magic/Kareem + Shaq/Kobe Lakers This is the ONLY team on the list of dynasties in NBA history that you could look at with your style of building + mix of draft picks as well...Without Kobe/Magic they do not have the dynasties they have but they also got handed superstars because of destination...

I mean you can deny the past all you want but you can't really change history....These teams were all the dynasties in the NBA and they all have something in common....They all have high draft picks on them because....Tada the percentages in the NBA like i said the higher you pick in the draft the better the outcome...

Have teams tried this method and failed....Of course they have....Is their evidence of it actually being successfull and building dynasties ....Of course it has....

Both things can be true but that doesn't mean its an invalid way to team building like you want to suggest when history and present has shown that it is a viable and good strat to building actual winners + Have a more Dynasty building % than playing the middle has produced in NBA history...

[Clutch0z24]

Piston has not been tanking for 15 years. They torn it down beginning 2019/2020 and had 5 tanking season in a row. Then last two season things started upswinging for them.

Pistons are actually the worst example against tanking. They literally had an all time bad losing streak 2 seasons ago and are now the best team in the East primarily driven by their young talent that they drafted from doing a proper rebuild. The idea that tanking means a team is going to suck forever is such nonsense I can’t believe people still believe it

I mean the Pistons added Beasley (2nd in 6MOY voting and played all 82 games while averaging 28 MPG), Harris (averaged 14/6/2 while playing 73 games as the starting PF/SF) and THJ (37% on 6 3FGA per game while playing 77 games as the starting SG) in the 2024 offseason which largely contributed to their 30-win increase last season. While they are off to a very good start this season and Duren has made a noticeable jump while Cade has also been playing at an All-NBA level, they have again got pretty big contributions from some newly acquired players (Robinson, Green and LeVert). It’s not just because they tanked for half a decade and were terrible for the majority of the 2010s before that they are at the top of the East now.

Pistons best players and the reason they are doing so well is a result of their high end draft picks they got the last 5 years....These type of role players like Harris/Beasley etc do help winning of course but these are the easiest type of players to aquire via trade/free agency....You need the Cade/Duren type of players to even be in the conversation to begin with....Thats why most teams that rebuild the smart way tear it down and play the draft for a while because thats the best way to find top end talent if you are a small market team you can plug in and fill in the holes later once you get a championship level core....

OKC is a good example as well yes they got guys like Caruso/Hartenstein but the main players all come or came from playing the draft the right way....Yes they got Shai in a trade but Shai was still a lotto pick at the end of the day....Which is why i said a few posts back that multiple high picks has been a formula to building a sustainable winning team since the dawn of time...

[ItsDanger]

Detroit is a good example of building a fake playoff team without top talent but having to tear it down and tank again.

[Tripod]

Are you that dense? ....Im not talking about how these players ended up on said team....Regardless how they ended up on said team they are still either high end draft picks or lottery picks, last time i checked 11th pick is still a lottery pick?......

Tatum/Brown were both main reasons why the Celtics won their title yes or no? Yes....They are both top 5 picks yes or no? Yes....Shai is a lotto pick yes or no? Yes? , Do OKC need all 3 Shai, Chet, Williams who are all Lotto picks? Yes they need them all to be a dynasty they are becoming, The rest of the examples are teams that were built through the draft that had success doing it that way....Can add the Thompson Pistons in there as well....

I don't give a damn if a team traded for said picks...What it took for these teams to be successfull was to add players within the top parts of the draft to be successfull as a team and potential dynasties....

Until the Raptors make savy trades like they could have done with the 9th pick funny in itself and get future top draft picks in trades than you would have a point....But Bobby does not seem like a savy trader like the OKC have been....(Currently the championship favorite with 2 top picks in 2026 draft)

And you are actually a dumbass if you think Carter/T-Mac have they stayed together would not have been one of the best teams in the NBA....Rookie scale contracts are not like they used to be in that era...Teams have control of their young guys for 8-9 years now...So if we drafted a Carter/T-Mac level duo we have them for many years under our control...So saying thats a deseperate thing to bring up is foolish with the potential a duo like that would have...Both coming from high draft picks btw...

High end talent % come from good draft selections no arguing that....If you are then you don't look at the odds of it much or have no idea what you are talking about....You still have to be a bad team to pick 7th where curry got picked even 11th where Klay got picked....You still have to have a bad record ...GSW Tanked them years they got Curry/Klay....We got the 9th pick last year and we were a 30 win team....So yes higher the lottery pick the better outcome but 7th pick could still end up with a franchise level player if you have a good drafting front office...

But yes there is also luck and skill drafting involved in that strat just like any other strat has even the one you advocate for and what we are trying to do right now involves luck and Savy smart trades....So far Bobby Blundered one trade on the table we will see what he does next this trade deadline...But we also have very minimal trade assets to play with to upgrade significantly anyways...

Some posters will never admit that tanking works. They’ll jump through 1000 hoops before ever admitting it might be a valid rebuilding method. Los was arguing the other day that Detroit’s success “isn’t sustainable long term” even though they are on pace for 60 wins and their 2 best players are under 25. If they won’t admit that maybe, just maybe, tanking helped DET then they won’t ever admit it.

Part of successful tanking is tearing down the team a year early and not a year too late (see: us and our returns for Siakam, OG and FVV). Teams like BOS sold early on KG/Pierce and got surplus draft capital to acquire Tatum and Brown. OKC sold early on PG3 and got SGA and JDub. HOU traded for Durant using excess draft capital. Acquiring surplus draft capital is part of a successful tanking strategy. The Sengun and Duren picks were acquired using excess draft capital from the original tear down. These are the types of swings you can take if you build up your coffers.

Tanking is no longer the single branch strategy posters like Los treats it as. It’s not just purposeful losing with only your own picks. It’s now about getting multiple bites at the apple to improve your overall drafting odds (or to use those surplus assets to acquire help).

The majority of the current best teams in the league engaged in some form of aggressive tanking yet we still have posters who refuse to admit it might be a realistic way to build a team.

1000 percent its about timing and knowing when to move off the assets you have to get the best assets you can to advance your teams asset base to start the ulimate rebuild....Our front office failed in so many ways and only the real smart GMs do it the right way... our front office failed on so many levels....

If that OG/Siakam/FVV core was broken up way sooner and we didn't try to play team middle with the Yak trade we are 10000 percent in a better position as a team today....We get actual top tier assets back for our guys instead of the poopoo platters we got and we also get more assets to make trades/draft picks with....Instead we got dog water and lost to a sad Bulls team in the play ins....This is what team mid advocates refuse to accept that you could be playing the middle and end up with bad or no good results in the playoffs/play ins ever and then what?

Thing with these posters they don't want to admit that building from the middle also takes alot of luck as well because if you don't get lucky on that one trade, or you don't get lucky with low tier draft picks you are trying to build in the middle with dog crap.....

News flash for some of these posters we have been trying to make the Durant/Giannis/Lillard type of trades for god knows how many offseasons now....Thing is we just do not have the assets to get it done or these players refuse to play for Toronto....You think that will change and we will magically land Giannis? The chances of that ....Id put below the 14% you would have in the NBA lottery at about 5% chance....Thats being generous because its prolly a 1% chance in all reality...


Theres 3 ways this goes....Bobby shocks us all and makes some savy trades to make us a legit team, Bobby makes some bad trades for a flawed star with injury concerns or just not that good of stars like Trae/AD....Gives up our future draft capital in the process while the team flames out due to either injuries, old age, or not being good enough and we are in a Nets/Bucks situation where we suck with no draft picks.....Or we try and try to make all the best trades get no where because other teams have better assets to make the trades while we are stuck a few more years with Barnes/Ingram and eventually have to start over and rebuild anyways because this team is never good enough...

I mean it will take extream luck for option one to be the case anyways....

If only we traded away Derozan, Lowry, JV, Serge for picks. What could have been....

[Clutch0z24]

Some posters will never admit that tanking works. They’ll jump through 1000 hoops before ever admitting it might be a valid rebuilding method. Los was arguing the other day that Detroit’s success “isn’t sustainable long term” even though they are on pace for 60 wins and their 2 best players are under 25. If they won’t admit that maybe, just maybe, tanking helped DET then they won’t ever admit it.

Part of successful tanking is tearing down the team a year early and not a year too late (see: us and our returns for Siakam, OG and FVV). Teams like BOS sold early on KG/Pierce and got surplus draft capital to acquire Tatum and Brown. OKC sold early on PG3 and got SGA and JDub. HOU traded for Durant using excess draft capital. Acquiring surplus draft capital is part of a successful tanking strategy. The Sengun and Duren picks were acquired using excess draft capital from the original tear down. These are the types of swings you can take if you build up your coffers.

Tanking is no longer the single branch strategy posters like Los treats it as. It’s not just purposeful losing with only your own picks. It’s now about getting multiple bites at the apple to improve your overall drafting odds (or to use those surplus assets to acquire help).

The majority of the current best teams in the league engaged in some form of aggressive tanking yet we still have posters who refuse to admit it might be a realistic way to build a team.

1000 percent its about timing and knowing when to move off the assets you have to get the best assets you can to advance your teams asset base to start the ulimate rebuild....Our front office failed in so many ways and only the real smart GMs do it the right way... our front office failed on so many levels....

If that OG/Siakam/FVV core was broken up way sooner and we didn't try to play team middle with the Yak trade we are 10000 percent in a better position as a team today....We get actual top tier assets back for our guys instead of the poopoo platters we got and we also get more assets to make trades/draft picks with....Instead we got dog water and lost to a sad Bulls team in the play ins....This is what team mid advocates refuse to accept that you could be playing the middle and end up with bad or no good results in the playoffs/play ins ever and then what?

Thing with these posters they don't want to admit that building from the middle also takes alot of luck as well because if you don't get lucky on that one trade, or you don't get lucky with low tier draft picks you are trying to build in the middle with dog crap.....

News flash for some of these posters we have been trying to make the Durant/Giannis/Lillard type of trades for god knows how many offseasons now....Thing is we just do not have the assets to get it done or these players refuse to play for Toronto....You think that will change and we will magically land Giannis? The chances of that ....Id put below the 14% you would have in the NBA lottery at about 5% chance....Thats being generous because its prolly a 1% chance in all reality...


Theres 3 ways this goes....Bobby shocks us all and makes some savy trades to make us a legit team, Bobby makes some bad trades for a flawed star with injury concerns or just not that good of stars like Trae/AD....Gives up our future draft capital in the process while the team flames out due to either injuries, old age, or not being good enough and we are in a Nets/Bucks situation where we suck with no draft picks.....Or we try and try to make all the best trades get no where because other teams have better assets to make the trades while we are stuck a few more years with Barnes/Ingram and eventually have to start over and rebuild anyways because this team is never good enough...

I mean it will take extream luck for option one to be the case anyways....

If only we traded away Derozan, Lowry, JV, Serge for picks. What could have been....

Horrible and bad response ....foolish really to compare this team to the We the North era again....Not the same catigory of teams....Asset base wise or top level talent wise...

We were a 48, 49, 56, 51, 59, win team (s) during that era....Always at the top of the east, A much more harder east i might add....This east is paper thin weak.... Hitting in every draft with a player that would be very rare to hit on that many times so we were also building up a very good asset base while winning much more + looking like a more well balanced, and a much better fit on the court style wise of a team....

It would be like the LeBron era Laker fans trying to compare that era vs the Shaq/Kobe, Kobe/Gasol, Magic/Kareem era of the Lakers....Just a dumb thing to even bring up in general...If we had the We the North level roster right now with the depth that team had we are prolly favorites in this weak east....No one would be complaining ....We prlly win 60 games and go to the finals...

[Tripod]

1000 percent its about timing and knowing when to move off the assets you have to get the best assets you can to advance your teams asset base to start the ulimate rebuild....Our front office failed in so many ways and only the real smart GMs do it the right way... our front office failed on so many levels....

If that OG/Siakam/FVV core was broken up way sooner and we didn't try to play team middle with the Yak trade we are 10000 percent in a better position as a team today....We get actual top tier assets back for our guys instead of the poopoo platters we got and we also get more assets to make trades/draft picks with....Instead we got dog water and lost to a sad Bulls team in the play ins....This is what team mid advocates refuse to accept that you could be playing the middle and end up with bad or no good results in the playoffs/play ins ever and then what?

Thing with these posters they don't want to admit that building from the middle also takes alot of luck as well because if you don't get lucky on that one trade, or you don't get lucky with low tier draft picks you are trying to build in the middle with dog crap.....

News flash for some of these posters we have been trying to make the Durant/Giannis/Lillard type of trades for god knows how many offseasons now....Thing is we just do not have the assets to get it done or these players refuse to play for Toronto....You think that will change and we will magically land Giannis? The chances of that ....Id put below the 14% you would have in the NBA lottery at about 5% chance....Thats being generous because its prolly a 1% chance in all reality...


Theres 3 ways this goes....Bobby shocks us all and makes some savy trades to make us a legit team, Bobby makes some bad trades for a flawed star with injury concerns or just not that good of stars like Trae/AD....Gives up our future draft capital in the process while the team flames out due to either injuries, old age, or not being good enough and we are in a Nets/Bucks situation where we suck with no draft picks.....Or we try and try to make all the best trades get no where because other teams have better assets to make the trades while we are stuck a few more years with Barnes/Ingram and eventually have to start over and rebuild anyways because this team is never good enough...

I mean it will take extream luck for option one to be the case anyways....

If only we traded away Derozan, Lowry, JV, Serge for picks. What could have been....

Horrible and bad response ....foolish really to compare this team to the We the North era again....Not the same catigory of teams....Asset base wise or top level talent wise...

We were a 48, 49, 56, 51, 59, win team (s) during that era....Always at the top of the east, A much more harder east i might add....This east is paper thin weak.... Hitting in every draft with a player that would be very rare to hit on that many times so we were also building up a very good asset base while winning much more + looking like a more well balanced, and a much better fit on the court style wise of a team....

It would be like the LeBron era Laker fans trying to compare that era vs the Shaq/Kobe, Kobe/Gasol, Magic/Kareem era of the Lakers....Just a dumb thing to even bring up in general...If we had the We the North level roster right now with the depth that team had we are prolly favorites in this weak east....No one would be complaining ....We prlly win 60 games and go to the finals...

No...realistic response.

We could have traded Kyle or Derozan in 2013 after going 34-48, right? Or during the season when we traded Gay. There were LOTS of calls to tear it all down. And you are kidding yourself if you didn't think there were the same calls for a teardown even with those winning seasons that followed.

You only want to look at the timeline AFTER they turned the corner. That's when Kyle was getting ready to enter season 8.

Raps are just STARTING and you just want to ignore that.

[Clutch0z24]

If only we traded away Derozan, Lowry, JV, Serge for picks. What could have been....

Horrible and bad response ....foolish really to compare this team to the We the North era again....Not the same catigory of teams....Asset base wise or top level talent wise...

We were a 48, 49, 56, 51, 59, win team (s) during that era....Always at the top of the east, A much more harder east i might add....This east is paper thin weak.... Hitting in every draft with a player that would be very rare to hit on that many times so we were also building up a very good asset base while winning much more + looking like a more well balanced, and a much better fit on the court style wise of a team....

It would be like the LeBron era Laker fans trying to compare that era vs the Shaq/Kobe, Kobe/Gasol, Magic/Kareem era of the Lakers....Just a dumb thing to even bring up in general...If we had the We the North level roster right now with the depth that team had we are prolly favorites in this weak east....No one would be complaining ....We prlly win 60 games and go to the finals...

No...realistic response.

We could have traded Kyle or Derozan in 2013 after going 34-48, right? Or during the season when we traded Gay. There were LOTS of calls to tear it all down. And you are kidding yourself if you didn't think there were the same calls for a teardown even with those winning seasons that followed.

You only want to look at the timeline AFTER they turned the corner. That's when Kyle was getting ready to enter season 8.

Raps are just STARTING and you just want to ignore that.

After we lost Bosh we went into the "Young Gunz" faze which was suppose to be a rebuilding faze....where we ended up getting JV/T-Ross 2 guys who were high picks that resulted in Ibaka/Gasol two players that were a huge part of us winning but thats besides the point....

BC got fired after the 2 years of the rebuild....Where he made a move for Rudy Gay which ultimatly failed....We ended up bringing in Masai for a new vision or direction which was his plan as well and started with trading Gay for more role players, Traded Bargs for a top 10 future draft pick....That Raptors team then followed up going on a really good run and thats when the 48 win season started....Thats when we started to win 50 games + on a regular basis.....Which yes was a surprise and shocked everyone because we were not suppose to be as good as we were....Which could be a result of having a good GM in Masai at that time....I do not have faith in Bobby at all...

That being said....This team we currently have and during the Barnes era in general has been team mid so far , Lots can change if this team goes on a crazy run like that 48 win DeRozan/Lowry team did in 2013/2014....But atm it could go either way imo could be we end up team mid with a 40ish win season or we could be a close to 50 win team....We will see i guess where it ends up...

Also them Raptors teams had more talent and depth than this current team has....Our bench is Dick/Jakobe/Shead/CMB....Barnes/Ingram vs Lowry/DeRozan could be argued which duo is better.....Talent wise both are talented duos....But idk if they will ever have the same chemistry Lowry/DeRozan had on the court together.

I think Prime Lowry would be hard to beat and DeRozan as a gunner/scorer is just as good as Ingram.....Both obviously flawed duos to actually win a championship but if i had to choose id personally pick Lowry/DeRozan easily....I just don't believe we can ever build an asset base as good as We the North era via late draft picks (Latley we been bad at drafting) and i also am not as high on the Barnes/Ingram duo as you or others seem to be....Hope im wrong but i just don't see it....We did not draft correctly and made too many wrong trades during our rebuilding stages...

[Pointgod]

Some posters will never admit that tanking works. They’ll jump through 1000 hoops before ever admitting it might be a valid rebuilding method. Los was arguing the other day that Detroit’s success “isn’t sustainable long term” even though they are on pace for 60 wins and their 2 best players are under 25. If they won’t admit that maybe, just maybe, tanking helped DET then they won’t ever admit it.

Part of successful tanking is tearing down the team a year early and not a year too late (see: us and our returns for Siakam, OG and FVV). Teams like BOS sold early on KG/Pierce and got surplus draft capital to acquire Tatum and Brown. OKC sold early on PG3 and got SGA and JDub. HOU traded for Durant using excess draft capital. Acquiring surplus draft capital is part of a successful tanking strategy. The Sengun and Duren picks were acquired using excess draft capital from the original tear down. These are the types of swings you can take if you build up your coffers.

Tanking is no longer the single branch strategy posters like Los treats it as. It’s not just purposeful losing with only your own picks. It’s now about getting multiple bites at the apple to improve your overall drafting odds (or to use those surplus assets to acquire help).

The majority of the current best teams in the league engaged in some form of aggressive tanking yet we still have posters who refuse to admit it might be a realistic way to build a team.

Couldn’t have said it better myself. You look at the top of the league and see some of the up and coming teams used this approach, It’s the best way to build a sustainable team.

I don't think there is one viable solution here.

There is luck involved, especially when it comes to injuries and lottery odds. A team like the Spurs I believe had like 5th or 6th best odds to get the #1 pick and they did, getting Wemby.

Some teams like Warriors, Raptors Bucks, Heat and Nuggets did not really deliberately tank at all in the late 2000s and early 2010s, were treadmill teams, and still managed to find superstar level talent and build contenders.

Obviously there are teams that tanked where it worked and some where it didn't dependent on a variety of factors.

The Spurs had the best odds to get Wemby along with the Pistons and Houston. Yes luck is involved but they put themselves in that position to win the lottery by tanking. The realized early on that it was the most viable path to becoming a contender and they were right. Imagine if the Spurs had still been trying to win with Derozan, Poeltl, Derrick White and Dejounte Murray…. they wouldn’t even be close to the position that they’re in now.

The Warriors were a bad team for a long time before drafting Curry. They were bad with Curry which is what allows them to get Klay Thompson and Harrison Barnes. Raptors, Bucks, Nuggets are examples of extremely fortunate circumstances and the Heat draft well but also have a free agency advantage that the majority of teams don’t have. Also you’re bringing up teams from a time before the new CBA which pretty much has killed free agency and made it harder to make trades.

In the new CBA era the most valuable commodities are assets and cap flexibility. There’s no downside to accumulating assets because worse case scenario you just trade those assets for vets. We’ve seen the downsides of trying to build a contender through trades, the margin for error is very small because you mortgage your future for short term success. And if you don’t get it right it’s hard to dig out of that hole

[Tripod]

Odd...no mention of Warriors high picks Weisman and Kuminga

Oh right, we only mention high pick successes