PG: Knicks move into a tie for the 10th PICK!!!

[Cookies4Life]

Hornacek did a terrible job with his rotations last night. In a close game, he should've been subbing between Kanter and Lance Thomas, who was doing a terrific job with his on ball defense on Giannis.

His other major rotation flaw is what he did with Jack and Frank (again.) Last night's game had a college basketball type of atmosphere and there were a lot of silly TO's the Knicks were making. Frank had some blunders of his own, but it would've been a great experience for him to get more minutes and play through that stifling defense that the Bucks presented last night. I just don't know how our two lottery pick player's are supposed to build chemistry if Frank isn't getting enough minutes to work on his game, build an on-court rapport with KP, and try to persevere through his mistakes on the floor.

Let's see what happens tomorrow; this team usually plays bad in daytime games.

[KnicksFan7]

I have no problem with Frank and his performance. If we want to tank and develop, he is absolutely what we need. Let him grow with the younger guys. The problem is that the coach isn't on board with either of those options (tank and develop).

The other part of the equation is that coach doesn't understand rotations and momentum. If we're going for wins, let the guys who are leading the way take over. It's so frustrating to see us making a comeback and then watch him pull the guys who are leading the charge.

[Da ThRONe]

If we drafted Donovan Mitchell he'd be getting 5 mins a night behind THJ Lee and Baker. He'd probably play about as much as Dotson does. We'd have already crushed his confidence and soul. Frank would be thriving looking like everything we dreamed he could be and actually playing meaningful minutes elsewhere.

True, but at this point it looks like one of the following two things are true:
1 - Jeff is coaching his best and losing
2 - Jeff is intentionally coaching to lose

I can't see #1 being true (at least not most of the time).
It looks like #2 is true. I'm on board with Jeff right now, top 5 pick please.

That said, this is the last year year of lotto for us. I could imagine next year being tough but we will have money at the end of next year for a big FA or two, so we are near the point where we really need to start assembling talent for now and not next year. (In the next year or 2.)

We are 1 solid pg away from being a solid squad... replace Lance and ditch Jack and add that 8 - 10 pick and we win games like this.

Just play Burke 28+mins and the Knicks win the game. Trey has had an all star level impact the games where he's getting double digit mins. Somehow he's benched.

[thebuzzardman]

I think some are forgetting how sloppy Frank got with his passing again at the end of his run. Credit to him he knows our plays but he's still not a drive and kick PG and his WNBA layups won't cut it.

I disagree. I think he's one of those good vision, keeps his head up, runs the plays, low excitement players. He has enough athleticism, that with his height and wingspan, he can develop enough moves that will leverage that height and he'll be a decent PG - on offense.With the ability to guard 1 - 3 well.

IF
(note the IF)
IF
develops the handle and the mental aggressiveness to use it combines with those little jumpers you see around the paint. Add a floater and some layups he'll get more off of change of pace/height and that's where he'll be. That and being a player who'll knock down 3's when the team spaces properly and his man sags off him.

I'm on the record that he'll never be a dynamic style PG. I'm holding to Derek Harper style guy. Who lasted 12 years, but had a 6 year peak of 16/7, with really good defense. I'll take that. Of course I'd rather have a Mitchell, but that's the way it is.

[Red Vines]

Two turnovers in 17 seconds with a 3pt lead in the 4th quarter, that's why he didn't come back in crunchtime. Perry handed the Jeff the worst PG group in the league--in a PG driven league. That's why Jeff gets more of a chance from me.

[N Y K]

Didn’t watch. And glad I didn’t.

best and most logical post in this entire thread.... on this entire board

[3toheadmelo]

Watch on YouTube

[HEZI]

I still don't get the "watered down league" claim by some people. Dudes are breaking franchise and NBA records left and right but somehow the league is lacking in talent.

Only a handful of guys.
Also, with the current pace and emphasis on the 3 you’re seeing crazy numbers being thrown up.

I get that the pace is quick and teams shoot 3s but that still doesn't make it a watered down league. There is a bunch of talent in the NBA right now, a lot of it is still kids who are barely scratching the surface.

[N Y K]

Two turnovers in 17 seconds with a 3pt lead in the 4th quarter, that's why he didn't come back in crunchtime. Perry handed the Jeff the worst PG group in the league--in a PG driven league. That's why Jeff gets more of a chance from me.

well damn

[OpiumDose]

- Uses 2 game sample size to come to a conclusion about player

- Complains about people cherry picking by omitting the first 4 games

You are confused because you clearly lack reading ability. I'm not using 2 game sample size to come to any conclusion about player. I just thought it would be a good time to talk about it now as I remember just a little while ago there were talks here that THJ is not only worth his signing, but probably worth even more and when his numbers were brought up by some sane people then the defense was "let's not count those first 4 games". As I said - THJ is a streaky player - and it's not this "2 game sample size" that proves it - there are plenty of these "streaks" in his career - go look them up - there's one at the start of the season with Knicks of length of 4 piss poor games. Let's look at his season (and career) shooting percentages - how's that for sample size for you? all of his shooting percentages (for season and for career) are below league average. This season he is taking 7.1 3pt per game and not making even 33% of those. Some people say he is suppose to be clutch, but tonight was not the first time (this season) that he has chocked on the free throw line in the last minutes of the game by missing not one, but both shots. His defense - take as large sample size as you wish, his defense has always been below average (net negative) and nothing has changed in that matter. Also pointing out facts that he was bench player on Atlanta (and sent to G-League) has nothing to do with sample size. In fact nothing I said I based on small sample size. The only thing my post has to do with small sample sizes is the timing and calling out those who were cherry picking games to prove a point. If you can (by statistics) prove to me that THJ is not a streaky, highly inefficient shooter with bad defense then go ahead - I'm all ears. Until then - in my opinion he was not (and is not, and will not ever be) worth the ridiculous money that was given to him (seems like in hope that he would miraculously suddenly become a sidekick to KP for the future).

You say you're just pointing out facts, but then ignore facts that don't fit your narrative

Tim was a bench player in ATL, until the 2nd half of the season when he started 30 games for them, and produced at starter level. 18/4/3 on 44/34/81 splits
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hardati02/splits/2017

With regards to defense, Tim is about average. Nothing great, nothing terrible

66th percentile in PnR coverage
http://stats.nba.com/players/ball-handler/#!?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&OD=defensive&CF=PlayerFirstName*E*tim

64th percentile in spot up coverage
http://stats.nba.com/players/spot-up/?CF=PlayerFirstName*E*tim&Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&OD=defensive

32nd percentile in handoff coverage
http://stats.nba.com/players/hand-off/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&OD=defensive&CF=PlayerFirstName*E*tim

32nd percentile in off-screen coverage
http://stats.nba.com/players/off-screen/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&OD=defensive&CF=PlayerFirstName*E*tim

So, good at covering PnR and spot-up shooters, bad at covering handoffs and off-screen shots

105.5 DRTG
http://stats.nba.com/players/defense/?sort=DEF_WS&dir=-1&CF=PLAYER_NAME*E*tim

Opponent FG%
Overall: 1% worse
http://stats.nba.com/players/defense/?sort=DEF_WS&dir=-1&CF=PLAYER_NAME*E*tim

On 3's: 4% worse
http://stats.nba.com/players/defense-dash-3pt/?CF=PLAYER_NAME*E*tim

So he's not a defensive stopper, but he can hold his own for the most part

And yeah, Tim is not consistent on offense. Call it streaky if you want, but 4 bad games followed by 25 good games followed by 2 bad games is perfectly acceptable. Overall his efficiency isn't great, but it's well within average efficiency, which means his good games outweigh his bad

And lol at "ridiculous money."

Tim is the 63rd highest paid player in the league, and around 15th for 2 guards

So, he's paid like an average starter. I guess to you that's "ridiculous" cause you have an opinion that he's a bad player, but the facts don't support that opinion at all

"A" for an effort, but "F" for results interpretation and presentation. Being ranked on 32nd percentile is definitely bad (below average), especially for a starter. Overall if we take all of those play types that you posted (and those that you, for whatever reason, didn't post) and get an average out of them then it would be just I said - THJ is below average defender. For example, 105.5 DefRTG seems really decent, but there are more than 200 players in the league with better DefRTG. And almost all of the other stats that you posted support that statement too. So you proved nothing. If I had said that THJ is absolutely terrible defender then you would have a point, but I didn't that.

Also didn't see you mentioning DBPM anywhere and it figures as THJ is averaging -2.6 for his career (and -1.3 this season). I know that some people prefer ESPN's DRPM over that of basketball reference's DBMP so I looked up THJ's DRPM and he is currently ranked 290th in the league with -0.34.

He is "well within average efficiency"? I'm starting to think that you don't know the definition of "average". His career (and season) shooting percentages (FG%, 3PT FG%, TS%) are all below league average. If he was "well within average efficiency" and "his good games outweigh the bad" then how come the two biggest sample sizes possible (career shooting numbers & season shooting numbers) are not "well within average"? Answer - because he is inefficient volume shooter who takes many dumb, rushed shots and thus is unable to sustain above average (or even average) shooting splits. He currently ranks 275th (out of 367) in the league on TS% (from players with at least 10 GP and 10 mpg) - that's well below average.

Yes, "ridiculous money". It's not only about numbers. It's about context of the situation. It was a bad deal. We could have gotten him for cheaper, but outbid ourselves (and that's not really the first time Knicks have done that - just look at Noah or Baker deals for examples from very recent history).

[mpharris36]

Watch on YouTube

and jack plays 32 mins

glad i missed this game.

[TruthBeTold]

Damn... Timmy had a really bad game? Welcome to Team Tank Timmy, and you are not the only one who wants Jeff GONE!

WTF! How the hell does scoring machine Beasley only gets 13 minutes and Lance Thomas gets 18?

Sometimes I feel coaches favor players base on personality and work ethic more than court performance and talent. I can understand why Noah don't get any minutes, but why the hell WHG and Burke is not getting enough minutes? I guess the Knicks all star starters at the center, SF and PG position are just too good. More minutes for Beasley, Burke and WHG you poor excuse for a coach. Frank is not the only young player that needs to develop on the Knicks.

[HEZI]

Bruh.

[mpharris36]

that funny getting mad at he 2nd clip. I saw someone beat his guy off the dribble and collapse the defense and get blocked by a super athletic big who blocks a lot of shots. It also led to an offensive rebound and a basket...

the first clip doesn't bother me because explosion is fixable once he gets a year offseason with NBA trainers. Super nit picky when the kid plays a really good game...

[Drazen8]

Two turnovers in 17 seconds with a 3pt lead in the 4th quarter, that's why he didn't come back in crunchtime. Perry handed the Jeff the worst PG group in the league--in a PG driven league. That's why Jeff gets more of a chance from me.

well damn

To be fair leading up to this:
Beas was down under the basket
Lee was checking to see if beas was OK
Coach didn't call a time out
Frank is trying to get past 3 Bucks coraling him in the back court

[DOT]

"A" for an effort, but "F" for results interpretation and presentation. Being ranked on 32nd percentile is definitely bad (below average), especially for a starter.

F for interpretation says the guy that ignored where Tim is good and harped on where he's bad (which I said he was bad at in my op). And I didn't post the other play types because they either don't matter for guards (like PnR roll man coverage or post ups), or are too small a sample size for any meaninful information (like Isolation, where Tim has only defended .3 possesions per game)

Also didn't see you mentioning DBPM anywhere and it figures as THJ is averaging -2.6 for his career (and -1.3 this season). I know that some people prefer ESPN's DRPM over that of basketball reference's DBMP so I looked up THJ's DRPM and he is currently ranked 290th in the league with -0.34.

Do you know how DBPM is calculated?
It's a function of rebounds, steals, and blocks. So it's not a good indicator of a player's defense because most of the things that contribute to defense aren't factored in to the function, cause they're not part of box scores

Do you know how DRPM is calculated?
I don't. Nobody outside of ESPN does. If you could show me the formula, I'd accept it and look for flaws, like DBPM has. But the formula is not public knowledge, therefore it's bullsh*t

And I didn't see you acknowledge the fact that players shoot worse when guarded by him, but you gotta cherry pick somehow

If he was "well within average efficiency" and "his good games outweigh the bad" then how come the two biggest sample sizes possible (career shooting numbers & season shooting numbers) are not "well within average"? Answer - because he is inefficient volume shooter who takes many dumb, rushed shots and thus is unable to sustain above average (or even average) shooting splits.

Actual answer - because you're taking his first 3 seasons into account and acting like players don't drastically improve their efficiency from ages 21-25? And his first 3 seasons weigh down his career numbers because of that?
His last 2 seasons he's at 15 ppg on 44/35/77 splits, 55.6% TS%, which is around average
And before you post about I'm cherry picking by ignoring 3 seasons, it's cause the player he was at 21 is different from the player he is today, so therefore using those numbers in the average is not really indicitave of how good he is now

Yes, "ridiculous money". It's not only about numbers. It's about context of the situation. It was a bad deal. We could have gotten him for cheaper, but outbid ourselves (and that's not really the first time Knicks have done that - just look at Noah or Baker deals for examples from very recent history).

This is a dumb statement. I got nothing. You say that it's about the "principle" when ignoring the fact that it really isn't that much money, and he's worth it. Just like complaining about Baker making 4% of our cap it really doesn't matter that much

I'm done talking about this with you. My entire point was that you complained about cherry picking while cherry picking, which you continue to do. You have your agenda, have fun with it. Go troll someone else

[DOT]

Two turnovers in 17 seconds with a 3pt lead in the 4th quarter, that's why he didn't come back in crunchtime. Perry handed the Jeff the worst PG group in the league--in a PG driven league. That's why Jeff gets more of a chance from me.

well damn

To be fair leading up to this:
Beas was down under the basket
Lee was checking to see if beas was OK
Coach didn't call a time out
Frank is trying to get past 3 Bucks coraling him in the back court

And on the 2nd turnover he stole it right back

Funny how Red Vines didn't put that nugget of info in there

Almost like he's trying to push an agenda and cherry picking data or something...

[MP4LIFE]

that funny getting mad at he 2nd clip. I saw someone beat his guy off the dribble and collapse the defense and get blocked by a super athletic big who blocks a lot of shots. It also led to an offensive rebound and a basket...

the first clip doesn't bother me because explosion is fixable once he gets a year offseason with NBA trainers. Super nit picky when the kid plays a really good game...

Red Vines has a clear agenda with Frank, especially with Super Scrub Trey Burke on the roster. Have a feeling he either is related to Burke or has some weird fetish for Michigan players.

[Drazen8]

Just play Burke 28+mins and the Knicks win the game. Trey has had an all star level impact the games where he's getting double digit mins. Somehow he's benched.

I think he got benched because in his post game after Brooklyn I believe, he said something like he was still learning the plays. Sometimes he is just playing out there which he likes to do but coach wants to run plays.
I was surprised to hear him say that. Supposedly he had a agreement with Perry that if he took care of business in the D-league he would get called up this season. I thought the whole point of the D-league was to run the same stuff as the pro team but I guess that didn't happen even when they were planning to bring him up.

[Drazen8]

Bruh.

Cause KP was great with all his dunks the first year too!