2018-19 Player of the Year Discussion Thread

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Re: 2018-19 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#281 » by eminence » Tue Apr 9, 2019 12:54 am

LA Bird wrote:
eminence wrote:
LA Bird wrote:Kawhi getting double the votes of anybody else as the best defender in that player poll is such a joke. Excellent defender in his DPOY seasons but he has been nothing special since. At this rate, he will probably surpass old Kobe as the most overrated defender ever by the time his career is over.

And no way Davis makes top 5 with his playing time. It shouldn't matter if he was injured, benched or suspended. Connie Hawkins could have been a top 10 player of the 60s if he wasn't unfairly banned from the league but he shouldn't get the benefit of doubt over players who actually played and showed their worth. Neither should Davis. He will have to wait until next season to be a POY contender again.


Link to the player poll?

https://theathletic.com/909752/2019/04/08/the-2019-nba-player-poll-mvp-the-goat-most-overrated-players-weigh-in-on-the-best-and-worst-in-the-game/

Who’s the best defender? (114 votes)
Kawhi Leonard (30.3%)
Paul George (16.2%)
Rudy Gobert (14.9%)
Patrick Beverley (10.5%)
Joel Embiid (4.4%)
Jrue Holiday (3.5%)
Giannis Antetokounmpo, Draymond Green, Kris Dunn (2.6%)
Klay Thompson, Torrey Craig, Mikal Bridges, Marcus Smart (1.7%)
Myles Turner; Kyle Lowry; Steven Adams; P.J Tucker; Royce O’Neal; David Nwaba (1%)


Seems to have a general emphasis on perimeter iso defense I guess, not too surprised, though still bummed.
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Re: 2018-19 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#282 » by bondom34 » Tue Apr 9, 2019 1:37 am

LA Bird wrote:
eminence wrote:
LA Bird wrote:Kawhi getting double the votes of anybody else as the best defender in that player poll is such a joke. Excellent defender in his DPOY seasons but he has been nothing special since. At this rate, he will probably surpass old Kobe as the most overrated defender ever by the time his career is over.

And no way Davis makes top 5 with his playing time. It shouldn't matter if he was injured, benched or suspended. Connie Hawkins could have been a top 10 player of the 60s if he wasn't unfairly banned from the league but he shouldn't get the benefit of doubt over players who actually played and showed their worth. Neither should Davis. He will have to wait until next season to be a POY contender again.


Link to the player poll?

https://theathletic.com/909752/2019/04/08/the-2019-nba-player-poll-mvp-the-goat-most-overrated-players-weigh-in-on-the-best-and-worst-in-the-game/

Who’s the best defender? (114 votes)
Kawhi Leonard (30.3%)
Paul George (16.2%)
Rudy Gobert (14.9%)
Patrick Beverley (10.5%)
Joel Embiid (4.4%)
Jrue Holiday (3.5%)
Giannis Antetokounmpo, Draymond Green, Kris Dunn (2.6%)
Klay Thompson, Torrey Craig, Mikal Bridges, Marcus Smart (1.7%)
Myles Turner; Kyle Lowry; Steven Adams; P.J Tucker; Royce O’Neal; David Nwaba (1%)

Some of the votes for some categories were just so baffling, not just defense. GOAT, under/overrated, and coaches.
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Re: 2018-19 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#283 » by GSP » Tue Apr 9, 2019 7:32 am

Klays defensive rep might be even worse than Kawhis at this point. Outside of man defense against guards in stopping shots and post defense against some bigger players (not even getting deflections, forcing tos) does he do anything positive on defense? Hes usually stopping guys on the final play when their set already gets blown up by Draymond, Kd or Iggy too. Its insane to me there are ppl who think hes a better defender than Kd. Klay is like 470 something in Drapm last i checked.

Surprised he only got 2 votes in that list. Maybe players arent as high on him like they used to be on him and defenders like Avery Bradley
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Re: 2018-19 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#284 » by HeartBreakKid » Tue Apr 9, 2019 8:59 am

Semi Ojelelye got an overrated vote in the players vote....what? He's a bench warmer lol.
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Re: 2018-19 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#285 » by HeartBreakKid » Tue Apr 9, 2019 9:05 am

1-2 of the GOAT votes went to Allen Iverson. Lol this is brilliant, I wonder how old that player is.
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Re: 2018-19 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#286 » by GSP » Tue Apr 9, 2019 10:08 am

HeartBreakKid wrote:Semi Ojelelye got an overrated vote in the players vote....what? He's a bench warmer lol.


Prolly a troll vote from one of our own :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: 2018-19 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#287 » by Colbinii » Tue Apr 9, 2019 3:49 pm

HeartBreakKid wrote:1-2 of the GOAT votes went to Allen Iverson. Lol this is brilliant, I wonder how old that player is.

They are trolling. The poll consisted of a lot of 20-25 year olds.

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Re: 2018-19 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#288 » by bondom34 » Tue Apr 9, 2019 9:54 pm

For the heck of it, going into the last few games:
MVP:
1. Giannis
2. Harden
3. PG
4. Jokic
5. Curry

ROY: Doncic (Young 2nd, JJJ 3rd)

6MOY: Lou Williams (Sabonis 2nd, really no strong feeling after that)

COY: Budenholzer (Rivers 2nd, Joerger 3rd)

MIP: Siakam (Russell 2nd, Sabonis 3rd)

DPOY: Gobert (Giannis 2nd, Turner 3rd)

All Defense 1st team:

Smart/Bledsoe/PG/Giannis/Gobert

2nd team:

Holiday/Green/Tucker/Green/Embiid

All NBA 1st team:

Curry/Harden/PG/Giannis/Embiid

2nd:

Lillard/Westbrook (Irving’s off court stuff keeps him from 2nd team)/KD/Kawhi/Jokic

3rd:

Beal/Irving/LMA/Griffin/KAT

Leaving Lebron off feels weird, but between missing games and the off court stuff in LA I can’t personally do it.
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Re: 2018-19 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#289 » by HeartBreakKid » Tue Apr 9, 2019 11:52 pm

Why is George the census pick over Jokic? This one of those things where he was the pick a few months ago and kinda just rolling with it?
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Re: 2018-19 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#290 » by GSP » Wed Apr 10, 2019 12:18 am

bondom34 wrote:For the heck of it, going into the last few games:
MVP:
1. Giannis
2. Harden
3. PG
4. Jokic
5. Curry

ROY: Doncic (Young 2nd, JJJ 3rd)

6MOY: Lou Williams (Sabonis 2nd, really no strong feeling after that)

COY: Budenholzer (Rivers 2nd, Joerger 3rd)

MIP: Siakam (Russell 2nd, Sabonis 3rd)

DPOY: Gobert (Giannis 2nd, Turner 3rd)

All Defense 1st team:

Smart/Bledsoe/PG/Giannis/Gobert

2nd team:

Holiday/Green/Tucker/Green/Embiid

All NBA 1st team:

Curry/Harden/PG/Giannis/Embiid

2nd:

Lillard/Westbrook (Irving’s off court stuff keeps him from 2nd team)/KD/Kawhi/Jokic

3rd:

Beal/Irving/LMA/Griffin/KAT

Leaving Lebron off feels weird, but between missing games and the off court stuff in LA I can’t personally do it.


Lma is a C this year tho
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Re: 2018-19 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#291 » by bondom34 » Wed Apr 10, 2019 12:27 am

GSP wrote:
bondom34 wrote:For the heck of it, going into the last few games:
MVP:
1. Giannis
2. Harden
3. PG
4. Jokic
5. Curry

ROY: Doncic (Young 2nd, JJJ 3rd)

6MOY: Lou Williams (Sabonis 2nd, really no strong feeling after that)

COY: Budenholzer (Rivers 2nd, Joerger 3rd)

MIP: Siakam (Russell 2nd, Sabonis 3rd)

DPOY: Gobert (Giannis 2nd, Turner 3rd)

All Defense 1st team:

Smart/Bledsoe/PG/Giannis/Gobert

2nd team:

Holiday/Green/Tucker/Green/Embiid

All NBA 1st team:

Curry/Harden/PG/Giannis/Embiid

2nd:

Lillard/Westbrook (Irving’s off court stuff keeps him from 2nd team)/KD/Kawhi/Jokic

3rd:

Beal/Irving/LMA/Griffin/KAT

Leaving Lebron off feels weird, but between missing games and the off court stuff in LA I can’t personally do it.


Lma is a C this year tho

Pretty sure he's a forward for voting. KAT can be voted as a forward anyway so it still works. Lowe said that on his last pod.
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Re: 2018-19 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#292 » by HeartBreakKid » Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:38 am

I think Mitchell Robinson should be rookie of the year over Young, Ayton and Doncic.

I might make a thread about this in the general section because I think there should be some more light on it.


The biggest issue I have with rookie of the year - other than it's over reliance on PPG, is that the award is won way too early in the season. Most people make up their minds about rookie of the year before the New Year even starts - Michael Carter-Williams basically won rookie of the year the first 2 weeks of his season (Victor Oladipo was a better player his rookie year, and should have been that years ROY FYI).

I think rookie of the year should go to who the best rookie is, not just who has the most hype - and I really can't rationalize how Mitchell Robinson ISNT the best rookie. If you had a good team and you wanted to add one rookie to it to help try to win a championship, I'm not sure how someone can say Ayton or Young will help a team more than Robinson.

Luka? Well, okay, some people were calling Luka a top 20 player this year (I disagree...but that's for another time) - but a lot of his driving point was him carrying the Mavs to the playoffs. For one, at a certain point in the season people just felt like the Mavs were gonna make it, greatly overestimating how little room for error the Mavericks really have in the West. Also, Luka is not the only good player on the Mavericks and he has a coach that isn't half bad.

Luka is still really good for a rookie, but he's not that much better than an average starting caliber player if we take away his rookie status and age. He scores on good volume but is slightly inefficient, he is a GREAT floor general and good passer but is incredibly turnover prone, and his defense leaves some to be desired. I'm just not seeing how he can be better than Mitchell who looks like Bill Russell at times.

To me this is like putting Donovan Mitchell over Rudy Gobert. Yeah, Robinson isn't at the Frenchie's level - but they check off similar things, Robinson might be the BEST shot blocker in the league already, he is also a GREAT perimeter defender (better than Rudy Gobert is), close to a double digit caliber rebounder (he would average 11.3 PER 36), and he shoots 69 ...that's both his FG% and his TS% - he only puts up 7 points but he also only plays 20 minutes, and it's pretty disorganized basketball the Knicks play.

And yeah, I know, Per 36 isn't great - especially when you consider Robinson would average 6 personal fouls at the rate he is playing at (hey, he's still a rookie he has his weaknesses). But it isn't a stretch to imagine that under a better coach, in an organization that wants to win games (NYK certainly does not), he could be played at 25 minutes per game at least, and that would make a really big difference in his stats.



So what do you guys think? I mean I have never seen a shot blocker like him - I really think he beats the big 3 rookies.
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Re: 2018-19 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#293 » by Perseus1966 » Wed Apr 10, 2019 10:09 am

Mvp:Giannis
Dpoy:Giannis
Roty:Young
Mip:Siakam
6th:Lou

I would pick Gobert for Dpoy but Giannis destroyed him twice,so...
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Re: 2018-19 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#294 » by Krodis » Wed Apr 10, 2019 4:05 pm

HeartBreakKid wrote:Luka is still really good for a rookie, but he's not that much better than an average starting caliber player if we take away his rookie status and age.


So, if you ignore how impressive it is for someone his age to be carrying that kind of load and that kind of production, he's only an above average starter.

... I'm not sure how this is supposed to be an argument AGAINST Luka Doncic.
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Re: 2018-19 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#295 » by bondom34 » Wed Apr 10, 2019 5:16 pm

So, looking more into the numbers, but from a purely numerical/objective standpoint I think Holiday has a solid argument for 2nd team all NBA with Lillard. He's 4th in single year RAPM with insane splits and he's probably all NBA level defense. I'm debating him hard now.
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Re: 2018-19 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#296 » by E-Balla » Wed Apr 10, 2019 5:34 pm

Krodis wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:Luka is still really good for a rookie, but he's not that much better than an average starting caliber player if we take away his rookie status and age.


So, if you ignore how impressive it is for someone his age to be carrying that kind of load and that kind of production, he's only an above average starter.

... I'm not sure how this is supposed to be an argument AGAINST Luka Doncic.

Because he's vastly overrating Mitch from looking at his post. Mitch can't stop fouling at all. No way in hell he could start on a good team. Numbers are numbers but watching the game Mitch isn't at all close to being an above average starter, or a well above average starter which is what he'd need to be to beat out Doncic even with the minute disparity.
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Re: 2018-19 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#297 » by E-Balla » Wed Apr 10, 2019 5:35 pm

bondom34 wrote:So, looking more into the numbers, but from a purely numerical/objective standpoint I think Holiday has a solid argument for 2nd team all NBA with Lillard. He's 4th in single year RAPM with insane splits and he's probably all NBA level defense. I'm debating him hard now.

He's played like 60 games... How in the hell does he have an argument over Lillard, who was available all year?
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Re: 2018-19 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#298 » by bondom34 » Wed Apr 10, 2019 5:37 pm

E-Balla wrote:
bondom34 wrote:So, looking more into the numbers, but from a purely numerical/objective standpoint I think Holiday has a solid argument for 2nd team all NBA with Lillard. He's 4th in single year RAPM with insane splits and he's probably all NBA level defense. I'm debating him hard now.

He's played like 60 games... How in the hell does he have an argument over Lillard, who was available all year?

I'm saying with Lillard, so 2nd team would be those 2. Also he's played 67
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Re: 2018-19 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#299 » by eminence » Wed Apr 10, 2019 5:41 pm

bondom34 wrote:So, looking more into the numbers, but from a purely numerical/objective standpoint I think Holiday has a solid argument for 2nd team all NBA with Lillard. He's 4th in single year RAPM with insane splits and he's probably all NBA level defense. I'm debating him hard now.


I've thought about it myself. Competition after the top 3 guards is not real high this year.
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Re: 2018-19 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#300 » by E-Balla » Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:33 pm

bondom34 wrote:
E-Balla wrote:
bondom34 wrote:So, looking more into the numbers, but from a purely numerical/objective standpoint I think Holiday has a solid argument for 2nd team all NBA with Lillard. He's 4th in single year RAPM with insane splits and he's probably all NBA level defense. I'm debating him hard now.

He's played like 60 games... How in the hell does he have an argument over Lillard, who was available all year?

I'm saying with Lillard, so 2nd team would be those 2. Also he's played 67

My bad then misread that. Personally I'm not taking him over Kemba but I can see the argument.

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