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KrazyP wrote:

Steelo Green wrote:

KrazyP wrote:
Getting Al Horford back in exchange for the #16 pick was a pretty major move for them. It brought leadership, stability and glue to a young team that desperately needed it. If the Raps made a move like that Steelo, 720, Pooh and a slew of others on this forum would lose their marbles.

The trade for Thad Young was a similar move but less impactful because it cost less both in terms of draft capital and money.

The Celtics strength is their defense. With further internal development, the Raps can and will likely get to that level.

Offensively we still have question marks, especially when it comes to shooting. Siakam/Barnes is a great tandem but they arent the natural scorers/high volume 3pt shooters like the Jays are. That means the rest of the roster needs to be loaded with shooting. OG/VanVleet/Trent are ok but after that the shooting on this team is highly suspect. Its very difficult to win games when you physically outplay your opponents but they keep up just by taking and making 3s.

Are you really comparing Al Horford to Thad Young?

It’s not just money. It’s so much more. There was also the dumping of Kemba Walker’s salary.

Also - Brown and Tatum are actually going and growing. Easily better than our top duo. N. t even comparable.

Give me Smart over Fred too.

They had the group to organically grow.

Fred and Pascal are 28. Don’t think they will take an MVP leap. Tatum is only 4 years older than Barnes.

Really poor comparison.

Arent you the same guy that loved the Derrick White trade? Rotation player + prospect + 1st round pick + pick swap for a bench guard making close to $20mill/yr?

The move to acquire Horford and Thad are quite similar as they were both made by young teams that needed to add a veteran for leadership, stability and glue. Horford > Thad but hes also older and the cost to acquire him was also considerably higher.

The move to acquire Horford cost the Celtics a #16 pick in a deep draft + the useless Kemba Walker (the contracts balanced out). Horford is 35.

The move to acquire Young cost the Raps a drop of 13 spots in a weak draft + the useless Goran Dragic (the contracts balanced out). Young is 33.

Obviously you like Smart over Fred because you basically hate everything Ujiri does unless it involves blatant tanking.

The comparison is reasonable as the Celtics should serve as the benchmark of where the Raptors want to get to. Defensively I think the Raps can get there. Offensively there are still question marks especially when it comes to shooting. Having both Tatum/Brown being the same age is a luxury the Raps dont have but that doesnt mean we need to spend the next few years crying and pushing for a tank.

The Raps are in decent shape.....arguably in better shape than when their climb to a championship started back in 2013 with Lowry and Derozan. As long as the existing assets continue to improve or maintain value, theres nothing to lose sleep over or incessantly whine about.

Madhouse wrote:The point is just that the Celtics were seen as a treadmill team last season.

They made some role player moves (moves that are easily doable for Toronto if they want) and are now a contender mostly due to internal growth.

That Tatum is the best player in this discussion right now is irrelevant because he was already good for their 36-36 team as was Brown.

They went from treadmill to championship caliber due to internal development from Brown, Tatum, Williams, Williams.

Madhouse wrote:The point is just that the Celtics were seen as a treadmill team last season.

They made some role player moves (moves that are easily doable for Toronto if they want) and are now a contender mostly due to internal growth.

That Tatum is the best player in this discussion right now is irrelevant because he was already good for their 36-36 team as was Brown.

They went from treadmill to championship caliber due to internal development from Brown, Tatum, Williams, Williams.

There is no reason the Raptors can't do the same and improve their depth during the offseason.

In fact Precious this year was as good or better than any version of RW year 1-3. No reason he can't take the year 3 leap be much better and make us a top 3 defense.

Not even mentioning Barnes who could easily take a much larger leap than any Celtic from last to this year.

Trent and OG are more wildcards but their age suggest they can be 10-20% better next season.

And if you add that all together you can make a similar progress, suddenly win 55+ games and be dangerous.

StopitLeo wrote:

Madhouse wrote:The point is just that the Celtics were seen as a treadmill team last season.

They made some role player moves (moves that are easily doable for Toronto if they want) and are now a contender mostly due to internal growth.

That Tatum is the best player in this discussion right now is irrelevant because he was already good for their 36-36 team as was Brown.

They went from treadmill to championship caliber due to internal development from Brown, Tatum, Williams, Williams.

I think trading Kemba might have been the most impactful thing they did.

Second was giving Williams more minutes at C and then having Horford back him up, which came from the Kemba trade.

720 wrote:

Madhouse wrote:The point is just that the Celtics were seen as a treadmill team last season.

They made some role player moves (moves that are easily doable for Toronto if they want) and are now a contender mostly due to internal growth.

That Tatum is the best player in this discussion right now is irrelevant because he was already good for their 36-36 team as was Brown.

They went from treadmill to championship caliber due to internal development from Brown, Tatum, Williams, Williams.

There is no reason the Raptors can't do the same and improve their depth during the offseason.

In fact Precious this year was as good or better than any version of RW year 1-3. No reason he can't take the year 3 leap be much better and make us a top 3 defense.

Not even mentioning Barnes who could easily take a much larger leap than any Celtic from last to this year.

Trent and OG are more wildcards but their age suggest they can be 10-20% better next season.

And if you add that all together you can make a similar progress, suddenly win 55+ games and be dangerous.

Adding quality role players is great, but it's a floor raiser. Stars are the ceiling raisers.

They had Tatum and Brown. The only people calling them treadmill were dummies. They had the hardest aspect of team creation which is a superstar (Tatum) and a sidekick (Brown). Tatum was always going to get better, he's so young and talented, same with Brown.

We can be in their position if one of Barnes or OG take a huge leap in the next year or two. If we have a better bench sure we'll be better but our stars are the ones that'll have to get us to the finish line.

Madhouse wrote:

720 wrote:

Madhouse wrote:The point is just that the Celtics were seen as a treadmill team last season.

They made some role player moves (moves that are easily doable for Toronto if they want) and are now a contender mostly due to internal growth.

That Tatum is the best player in this discussion right now is irrelevant because he was already good for their 36-36 team as was Brown.

They went from treadmill to championship caliber due to internal development from Brown, Tatum, Williams, Williams.

There is no reason the Raptors can't do the same and improve their depth during the offseason.

In fact Precious this year was as good or better than any version of RW year 1-3. No reason he can't take the year 3 leap be much better and make us a top 3 defense.

Not even mentioning Barnes who could easily take a much larger leap than any Celtic from last to this year.

Trent and OG are more wildcards but their age suggest they can be 10-20% better next season.

And if you add that all together you can make a similar progress, suddenly win 55+ games and be dangerous.

Adding quality role players is great, but it's a floor raiser. Stars are the ceiling raisers.

They had Tatum and Brown. The only people calling them treadmill were dummies. They had the hardest aspect of team creation which is a superstar (Tatum) and a sidekick (Brown). Tatum was always going to get better, he's so young and talented, same with Brown.

We can be in their position if one of Barnes or OG take a huge leap in the next year or two. If we have a better bench sure we'll be better but our stars are the ones that'll have to get us to the finish line.

Vegas aren't dummies and they had Boston at 45-47 wins, so basically a first round exit. 40/1 odds pointed to an extreme title long shot as well.

Everyone knew about Tatum and Brown and still nobody considered them title threats.

720 wrote:

Madhouse wrote:

720 wrote:Adding quality role players is great, but it's a floor raiser. Stars are the ceiling raisers.

They had Tatum and Brown. The only people calling them treadmill were dummies. They had the hardest aspect of team creation which is a superstar (Tatum) and a sidekick (Brown). Tatum was always going to get better, he's so young and talented, same with Brown.

We can be in their position if one of Barnes or OG take a huge leap in the next year or two. If we have a better bench sure we'll be better but our stars are the ones that'll have to get us to the finish line.

Vegas aren't dummies and they had Boston at 45-47 wins, so basically a first round exit. 40/1 odds pointed to an extreme title long shot as well.

Everyone knew about Tatum and Brown and still nobody considered them title threats.

Tatum has taken a jump this year and Vegas doesn't really account for talent/player development all the time. Tatum's traditional stats might look similar to last year but he's WAY better this year. I agree roster makeup is huge but without superstars it's all pointless because stars are what get you through when it matters (playoffs).

tecumseh18 wrote:Celtics are one step ahead of the Raps in mature, impactful talent right now. Roughly:

Tatum>Siakam>Brown>FVV>R-Will>OG>Smart>Trent>White>Birch

But Scottie and Precious are our X-factors. C's don't have anyone like them on the come-up (although Time Lord could conceivably develop a shot and/or move ahead of Fred). Their work this summer could flip the script for next season, or at least the following season.

Madhouse wrote:

720 wrote:

Madhouse wrote:


Vegas aren't dummies and they had Boston at 45-47 wins, so basically a first round exit. 40/1 odds pointed to an extreme title long shot as well.

Everyone knew about Tatum and Brown and still nobody considered them title threats.

Tatum has taken a jump this year and Vegas doesn't really account for talent/player development all the time. Tatum's traditional stats might look similar to last year but he's WAY better this year. I agree roster makeup is huge but without superstars it's all pointless because stars are what get you through when it matters (playoffs).

Well, that's my point. Their players showed growth and it resulted in a surprisingly much better team than people predicted despite knowing the talent of Tatum and Brown before the season.

They will slot in Toronto in a similar category. Mid to high 40 expected wins and from then on it depends which players grow by how much next season.

If they take leaps they will be better than expected, potentially a great team and internal growth will have made a huge difference.

720 wrote:

Madhouse wrote:

720 wrote:Tatum has taken a jump this year and Vegas doesn't really account for talent/player development all the time. Tatum's traditional stats might look similar to last year but he's WAY better this year. I agree roster makeup is huge but without superstars it's all pointless because stars are what get you through when it matters (playoffs).

Well, that's my point. Their players showed growth and it resulted in a surprisingly much better team than people predicted despite knowing the talent of Tatum and Brown before the season.

They will slot in Toronto in a similar category. Mid to high 40 expected wins and from then on it depends which players grow by how much next season.

If they take leaps they will be better than expected, potentially a great team and internal growth will have made a huge difference.

My point is Tatum was of that caliber of a prospect. You can realistically expect him to make big jumps. Which is why the people that called them treadmill were off base. I think Scottie can hopefully get to that point one day. But to expect to add quality role players and expect a contender is off. It has to come from the top players on your roster.

Madhouse wrote:

720 wrote:

Madhouse wrote:

Well, that's my point. Their players showed growth and it resulted in a surprisingly much better team than people predicted despite knowing the talent of Tatum and Brown before the season.

They will slot in Toronto in a similar category. Mid to high 40 expected wins and from then on it depends which players grow by how much next season.

If they take leaps they will be better than expected, potentially a great team and internal growth will have made a huge difference.

My point is Tatum was of that caliber of a prospect. You can realistically expect him to make big jumps. Which is why the people that called them treadmill were off base. I think Scottie can hopefully get to that point one day. But to expect to add quality role players and expect a contender is off. It has to come from the top players on your roster.

Nobody realistically expected them to become as good as they became, it was a huge surprise.

Everyone was talking about adding a 3rd star to the Jays like Siakam because they feared to be stuck in no mans land.

Johnny Bball wrote:You know if I want to read 8 posts from someone just fawning over Jason Tatum I can go to the **** Celtics board.

720 wrote:

Madhouse wrote:

720 wrote:My point is Tatum was of that caliber of a prospect. You can realistically expect him to make big jumps. Which is why the people that called them treadmill were off base. I think Scottie can hopefully get to that point one day. But to expect to add quality role players and expect a contender is off. It has to come from the top players on your roster.

Nobody realistically expected them to become as good as they became, it was a huge surprise.

Everyone was talking about adding a 3rd star to the Jays like Siakam because they feared to be stuck in no mans land.

And there were also people talking about trading Brown or Tatum and splitting the duo up. Which was equally as misguided.

Madhouse wrote:

720 wrote:

Madhouse wrote:The point is just that the Celtics were seen as a treadmill team last season.

They made some role player moves (moves that are easily doable for Toronto if they want) and are now a contender mostly due to internal growth.

That Tatum is the best player in this discussion right now is irrelevant because he was already good for their 36-36 team as was Brown.

They went from treadmill to championship caliber due to internal development from Brown, Tatum, Williams, Williams.

There is no reason the Raptors can't do the same and improve their depth during the offseason.

In fact Precious this year was as good or better than any version of RW year 1-3. No reason he can't take the year 3 leap be much better and make us a top 3 defense.

Not even mentioning Barnes who could easily take a much larger leap than any Celtic from last to this year.

Trent and OG are more wildcards but their age suggest they can be 10-20% better next season.

And if you add that all together you can make a similar progress, suddenly win 55+ games and be dangerous.

Adding quality role players is great, but it's a floor raiser. Stars are the ceiling raisers.

They had Tatum and Brown. The only people calling them treadmill were dummies. They had the hardest aspect of team creation which is a superstar (Tatum) and a sidekick (Brown). Tatum was always going to get better, he's so young and talented, same with Brown.

We can be in their position if one of Barnes or OG take a huge leap in the next year or two. If we have a better bench sure we'll be better but our stars are the ones that'll have to get us to the finish line.

Vegas aren't dummies and they had Boston at 45-47 wins, so basically a first round exit. 40/1 odds pointed to an extreme title long shot as well.

Everyone knew about Tatum and Brown and still nobody considered them title threats.

OakleyDokely wrote:Robert Williams staying health and taking a big step forward is a big reason for the Celtics improvement. The Celtics were always a good team with Tatum/Brown, but Williams adds another dimension by providing rim protection to a team that was already had great perimeter defenders.

Tor_Raps wrote:

OakleyDokely wrote:Robert Williams staying health and taking a big step forward is a big reason for the Celtics improvement. The Celtics were always a good team with Tatum/Brown, but Williams adds another dimension by providing rim protection to a team that was already had great perimeter defenders.

Has there ever been a good defensive team without good rim protection?

Not only is it needed for the initial stop but you need someone big/strong enough that can box out to finish the possession with the defensive rebound.