All Things Thunder Offseason Thread

[Kizz Fastfists]

Until they add a legitimate center adding more undersized big men does nothing. They won 40 games last year. With Chet and Cason as rookies they should take another jump. Without a legitimate center that jump is limited. Cason seems like a Patrick Beverly type, 3&D combo guard. Should be solid off the bench as a rookie. However, the starting lineup is still incomplete. SGA-Giddy-Jalen-Chet-CENTER! Fix the starting lineup then worry about the bench. There are enough quality bench guys already.

Are you thinking that he will never be a center or that he isn’t currently a center?

Chet is not a center and will not be a center. He is a PF in the mold of a smaller, weaker Dirk. You could compare his body to a thinner KD or compare him to Poku trying to bang in the paint or a whole host of other tall and thin players who can have a presence in the paint in certain matchups, but are not legitimate centers. Are you going to argue Poku, Siakam, Markkanen, KD or Dirk as centers all of them, except Poku, are stronger and more capable of banging in the paint than Chet. Chet took 38% of his shots in college from 3 because he couldn't bang in the paint in college. He won't be able to do it in the NBA. The great news is that his game is not dependent on banging in the paint.

He is great in the pick and roll and his length led to a lot of crazy blocks in college on players who thought they had open 3s or who muscled round him just to get rejected from behind.

[jake_swivel]

Heh...kinda, yeah.

But he is a rock solid guy. Was a team captain at Duke his last two years, incidentally (partially because he was a junior/senior of course). Came back to Australia and ruptured his Achilles, before being a starter on the championship team the next year (roughly 10ppg 7rebs), next to Jock Landale (16ppg, 8rebs).

I'm surprised he popped as a scorer, but he's always been versatile, athletic enough, tough defensively, etc. I honestly don't know how much he'll put on the table for you guys, but I know he won't take anything off it.

Oh, so he averaged 4 points as a senior, then blows his Achilles, THEN he’s 20/10 in the g-league. I’m rooting for him even if he looks like a model for a hitler youth marketing campaign.

[jake_swivel]

Chet is not a center and will not be a center. He is a PF in the mold of a smaller, weaker Dirk. You could compare his body to a thinner KD or compare him to Poku trying to bang in the paint or a whole host of other tall and thin players who can have a presence in the paint in certain matchups, but are not legitimate centers. Are you going to argue Poku, Siakam, Markkanen, KD or Dirk as centers all of them, except Poku, are stronger and more capable of banging in the paint than Chet. Chet took 38% of his shots in college from 3 because he couldn't bang in the paint in college. He won't be able to do it in the NBA. The great news is that his game is not dependent on banging in the paint.

He is great in the pick and roll and his length led to a lot of crazy blocks in college on players who thought they had open 3s or who muscled round him just to get rejected from behind.

Would there be a marker for you that would convince you that his position was center over the next couple years? Statistical or otherwise?

[Kizz Fastfists]

Dort, Wiggins and Miami 2025 FRP. 4 years/96 millions total to PJ Washington.

I don't think you're giving enough value to dump Dort's contract much less also get Washington. That contract is way too high for Washington as well. An undersized backup big that would be fighting with Chet, Jalen, JRE and Kenrich for playing time at PF and you're going to have a hard time selling me on Washington being better than any of them. If Presti had gotten a legitimate center and I thought they were going to actually play players in the right positions you could potentially sell me on Washington as a backup PF and small ball center for $72M/4yr and giving up the two firsts it would take to get them to accept Dort's contract and the first it would take to give value for Washington.

Until they add a legitimate center adding more undersized big men does nothing. They won 40 games last year. With Chet and Cason as rookies they should take another jump. Without a legitimate center that jump is limited. Cason seems like a Patrick Beverly type, 3&D combo guard. Should be solid off the bench as a rookie. However, the starting lineup is still incomplete. SGA-Giddy-Jalen-Chet-CENTER! Fix the starting lineup then worry about the bench. There are enough quality bench guys already.

you value Dort as a very negative contract while I view him as slightly positive so probably why u think it's not enough.

Question was what would be the max I would give to PJ Washington. I think he's worth 80 millions over 4 years but I would be ok to give it up to 96 because I love the fit in OKC. I think we have our Center in Chet (if he doesn't bust) and we need PF improvement. PJ is a very smart player, can defend multiple positions and still is pretty decent from 3.

I don't think Presti is looking as a traditional big and that's maybe why some of us are frustrated with the lack of bigs. Recent great teams are giving him reason..except from Jokic that is an anomaly, you have teams like Miami/Boston/Gs that barely play with a true big and those centers are mostly guys that can pass, dribble and shoot. Milwaukee has Brook Lopez but he's more important on offense than defense.

I want a back up in case Chet gets injured though. That's maybe why Presti signed that aussie guy but it looks like a very long shot.

Bam Adebayo is very much a traditional center. You can argue that Bam and Horford and Looney are shorter at 6'9 and 6'10 than the ideal 7 footer, but they are all stout and can bang in the paint at 240+. In order for Chet to reach that level of stout he'd need to be 260+ and that is highly unlikely to happen. KD never got passed 240. If they try to let him bang in summer league we can see how much he gets pushed around. He'll make up for a lot of it with his length, but getting pushed around like he will is not going to be good for his body and health.

[Xatticus]

Oh, so he averaged 4 points as a senior, then blows his Achilles, THEN he’s 20/10 in the g-league. I’m rooting for him even if he looks like a model for a hitler youth marketing campaign.

A stat line is more reflective of role than a player's abilities.

[jake_swivel]

Oh, so he averaged 4 points as a senior, then blows his Achilles, THEN he’s 20/10 in the g-league. I’m rooting for him even if he looks like a model for a hitler youth marketing campaign.

A stat line is more reflective of role than a player's abilities.

Find me a bunch of 4 year seniors who averaged 4 points, had a role change, and then were successful nba players in the past 30 years. I bet it’ll be about .0001% of seniors who averaged 4 points a game. Not saying Jack won’t be that guy, but I am saying that ability tends to inform the role that you’re given. I’m rooting for the austral-aryan, though.

[LewisnotMiller]

Oh, so he averaged 4 points as a senior, then blows his Achilles, THEN he’s 20/10 in the g-league. I’m rooting for him even if he looks like a model for a hitler youth marketing campaign.

A stat line is more reflective of role than a player's abilities.

Find me a bunch of 4 year seniors who averaged 4 points, had a role change, and then were successful nba players in the past 30 years. I bet it’ll be about .0001% of seniors who averaged 4 points a game. Not saying Jack won’t be that guy, but I am saying that ability tends to inform the role that you’re given. I’m rooting for the austral-aryan, though.

Ha! It's a fair point. Also seemed like kinda a cool challenge, but my list comprises of Jack White, and maybe Dewayne Dedmon, if you let me stretch the rules a little.
(he was a 4 year junior, plus averaged about 7 rather than 4). And I'm not sure if you'd count him 'successful', but he cashed some cheques.

I'm glad he's making a few bucks out of the game, and I hope like hell he becomes a good eighth man for you. That would be a seriously good outcome all things considered.

[jake_swivel]

Ha! It's a fair point. Also seemed like kinda a cool challenge, but my list comprises of Jack White, and maybe Dewayne Dedmon, if you let me stretch the rules a little.
(he was a 4 year junior, plus averaged about 7 rather than 4). And I'm not sure if you'd count him 'successful', but he cashed some cheques.

I'm glad he's making a few bucks out of the game, and I hope like hell he becomes a good eighth man for you. That would be a seriously good outcome all things considered.

I’d be psyched with that outcome. Any outcome where I don’t groan when he’s in the game is welcome. I’ve only seen his YouTube highlights and he looked really good. I don’t totally disagree with Xatticus. Knowing and perfecting your role matters a bunch. I’m reminded about what Alex Caruso said he realized about roles after hearing presti talk to the Blue when Alex was there.

Watch on YouTube

(But also, 4 points?! )

[Xatticus]

Oh, so he averaged 4 points as a senior, then blows his Achilles, THEN he’s 20/10 in the g-league. I’m rooting for him even if he looks like a model for a hitler youth marketing campaign.

A stat line is more reflective of role than a player's abilities.

Find me a bunch of 4 year seniors who averaged 4 points, had a role change, and then were successful nba players in the past 30 years. I bet it’ll be about .0001% of seniors who averaged 4 points a game. Not saying Jack won’t be that guy, but I am saying that ability tends to inform the role that you’re given. I’m rooting for the austral-aryan, though.

Sometimes it does. Sometimes it doesn't.

There are a lot of players in the NBA that have reputations as scorers despite mountains of evidence suggesting that they actually aren't good at it. A lot of bigs get pigeon-holed into roles and never are afforded the opportunities to demonstrate what they can do with the ball in their hands. For decades, only point guards were used to initiate the pick-and-roll.

My best friend growing up was recruited to play football by every school in the south. He was 6'1" and weighed 225 lbs. He was benching more than 400 lbs by his sophomore year in high school. He finished 4th in shot put in his junior year when the next-highest junior finished 20-something. He ended up attending a school that didn't even have a football program because everyone else had their ideas of what he was going to be. He knew he could do more than block and tackle, but nobody ever allowed him to do more, so he just quit the sport.

Mikal Bridges never would've received the opportunity to showcase the breadth of his game if the Brooklyn trade didn't happen, but there are still some out there arguing that he somehow managed to improve over night after the trade happened. The ability was always there. It was just lying dormant because nobody ever thought to put the ball in his hands to see what he could do.

The world isn't a meritocracy. It just doesn't work that way. And to be clear here, I'm not answering a hypothetical. Nor am I arguing that every player averaging 4 ppg in college is a butterfly waiting to come out of their cocoon. You asked how someone that averaged 4 ppg in college could average 20/10 in the G-League and I offered you an explanation.

[LewisnotMiller]

If I can go out on a bit more of a fringey limb here. Aussie basketball is a little different to American, near as I can tell, in terms of culture. I'm no great shakes as a player, but I get to coach at a decent level, which means I get to hang around and even assist real coaches (ie. not me...lol)

One of the more recent coaching sessions I was at got halted by the head coach, who was unhappy with how pick and roll/pop plays were being run. Screens were constantly being slipped, picks were being rejected a lot by ballhandlers, etc. He called everyone in and literally called them out for playing 'too American'. Which is obviously a gross over-generalisation, but his meaning was that everyone needed to play their role, and the offence needed to run more as a motion/equal opportunity style offence.

And if you look at Aussie players as a group, and start assigning 'types' to them, they are generally fairly physical and scrappy, often aren't amazing shooters (off the dribble at least) are really good at playing a role, but might not be the guy you toss the ball to and run isolation.

Go all the way back to Longley, Bogut, Ingles, Mills...more recently Simmons (ugh), Baynes, Daniels, Giddy, etc.

Some of the that is to do with talent, of course. If you're not a gun in the NBA, you're a role player. But the way we are taught to play here is much closer to everyone being a role player.
I could see Jack White looking around all the great talents at Duke, and thinking 'they need me to work hard defensively, set the tone, run the floor, stay up beat'. 20 mins a game, 4 ppg, team captain.

Meh, I'm projecting a lot, but there is a different style taught here to the States.

[jake_swivel]

You asked how someone that averaged 4 ppg in college could average 20/10 in the G-League and I offered you an explanation.

I actually just said it was strange, which I stand by. This is like the nature/nurture debate. Clearly ability and role both matter. Clearly they play into each other.

You didn’t note any successful 4 year college seniors who averaged a high of 4 for a reason. Most talented players demand more of a role. It’s unlikely that anyone has ever done so little at that level and then had anywhere approximating success in the nba.

But life is a strange and wonderful thing sometimes. Maybe Jack’s the one to do it, god bless him. And if he does, you better bet I’m trademarking “the austral-aryan”. It doesn’t feel lucrative, but I want the credit.

[jake_swivel]

If I can go out on a bit more of a fringey limb here. Aussie basketball is a little different to American, near as I can tell, in terms of culture.

Tallest poppy?

One of the more recent coaching sessions I was at got halted by the head coach, who was unhappy with how pick and roll/pop plays were being run. Screens were constantly being slipped, picks were being rejected a lot by ballhandlers, etc. He called everyone in and literally called them out for playing 'too American'.

Oh man, that cuts deep. Heh.

I could see Jack White looking around all the great talents at Duke, and thinking 'they need me to work hard defensively, set the tone, run the floor, stay up beat'. 20 mins a game, 4 ppg, team captain.

Meh, I'm projecting a lot, but there is a different style taught here to the States.

Makes sense. Then he goes back to another league that needs another role. He succeeds in that role. He wants to further his career and begins emphasizing aspects of that role in the g-league.

[ThunderBolt]

IF they make a trade for a 4 why wouldnt they go after Siakam? Assuming he'd sign an extension it'd make way more sense to me to make that move than PJ/Simmons/Collins etc

Siakam is great but Masai seems to be all bluff. He’d rather let guys walk in free agency than trade them. His list of losing guys that way is starting to grow. Obama, Gasol, Kawhi, Danny Green and now FVV. They didn’t get great value for Lowry. None of these moves by themself are egregious and the kawhi move was absolutely worth it. It just makes me skeptical of Toronto actually making a big reset trade. They seem content to stay where they are at and wait for a big opportunity to land a star present itself.

[Dadouv47]

which sexy 2nd round pick we got from taking on Patty Mills?

[retrobro90]

IF they make a trade for a 4 why wouldnt they go after Siakam? Assuming he'd sign an extension it'd make way more sense to me to make that move than PJ/Simmons/Collins etc

Siakam is great but Masai seems to be all bluff. He’d rather let guys walk in free agency than trade them. His list of losing guys that way is starting to grow. Obama, Gasol, Kawhi, Danny Green and now FVV. They didn’t get great value for Lowry. None of these moves by themself are egregious and the kawhi move was absolutely worth it. It just makes me skeptical of Toronto actually making a big reset trade. They seem content to stay where they are at and wait for a big opportunity to land a star present itself.

I think Masai is smart enough to understand you either have to extend or trade Pascal this year. FVV is maybe the only example you have that fits the bill of your point although I'm not sure who you meant by Obama. I don't think they have to go in complete reset right now but if Pascal is discontent it's just good practice to get value for him and send him somewhere that he can compete.

[timO]

SGA-Dort-Giddey-Jalen-Chet

Cason-Joe-Micic-Dieng-KW-Jaylin

Wiggins-Poku-JRE

4 seed

[Dadouv47]

Read on Twitter

related to 2nd round pick value

[LewisnotMiller]

Tallest poppy?

I don't think so. We are pretty good at doing that, for sure (unfairly cutting down tall poppies). But like most places, there are Americans all the way through our basketball ranks, and they are every bit as varied in approach as we are. Many of them are highly repected and integral to our basketball programs (including the Australian coach, who has been a major contributor out here since I was a kid...which is a long time ago...lol). I think it's more the emphasis and pathways. Here, you get identified and put into state or AIS programs which emphasise certain aspects of the game. It seems (from a distance) like players need to show out a bit more in the States. It's basically state-run programs, funded by the government.

Oh man, that cuts deep. Heh.

Heh...made me chuckle. And like I said, this is all pretty subjective. Might just be talking out of my butt.

I could see Jack White looking around all the great talents at Duke, and thinking 'they need me to work hard defensively, set the tone, run the floor, stay up beat'. 20 mins a game, 4 ppg, team captain.

Meh, I'm projecting a lot, but there is a different style taught here to the States.

He's a smart guy and a hard worker. If he got the right sort of coaching in the States (and from what I've heard, he was pretty complimentary) I think they'd be unpicking some of what he'd been taught here, and convincing him that sometimes 'role player' means giving your team some scoring punch. No way he has the talent for that G League impact to translate up, but I'm hoping he can get it done for a bench unit, once he finds his feet.

Quick sidenote, he and Dellevadova played on the same team here (with Landsdale) and my daughter was attending a camp with them. They both got called up to NBA Summer League last year, and she got second stringers...lol
Surprised me. I'd always been sure Lansdale would get a chance, but I was less certain about White. And Delly was struggling even in our league, to be honest. But I guess there are worse guys to have as your 12th man.

[LewisnotMiller]

which sexy 2nd round pick we got from taking on Patty Mills?

Use Patty as a player-coach (Udonis Haslem style) and the guy will give you value. Amazing culture guy.

[Dadouv47]

which sexy 2nd round pick we got from taking on Patty Mills?

Use Patty as a player-coach (Udonis Haslem style) and the guy will give you value. Amazing culture guy.

Would have done it last season but we badly lack roster spots now