The Minutes Police would like to welcome our newest officer - Mikal Bridges

[NYKinMIA]

All I know is that we should be extending that medical guy we got from Dallas if we make it through the playoffs healthy

[JayTWill]

i don't think so. but i've also never been one of the avowed believers in the minutes theory. so that burden of proof isn't really on me. if a knick gets injured, i'm not going to blame minutes. cavs are injured now. i'm not blaming minutes. i find that fair and logical.

the cavs minutes approach was held up as a paramount and exemplar on the basis of health and performance. i've never had anything against it. but they've faltered in a big moment on both fronts so far. facts i don't care to suspend.

if anything, it further exemplifies that we don't know what we are talking about as fans. and the minutes conversation has always been an oversimplification of impact on health and performance.

if the next level of the argument is that the cavs needed to maintain their traditional minutes distribution to perform well, then shouldn't they have stayed 10-deep? next man up? because they didn't do that. maybe kenny atkinson knew he couldn't just turn to chuma okeke and jaylon tyson when he could barely turn to javonte green and craig porter jr. he turned to his good players for a bump up (to, quite frankly, reasonable starter minutes -- especially in the throes of playoff war). and they didn't have it. it's not me talking trash. the people calling the game in-person are talking about how these guys don't look built for that kind of game. i take no pleasure in it.

minutes police can't really have it both ways. because there was also a plenty of vehement guarantee of health-based knick destruction that did not happen. certainly not before cleveland's.

I don't know. It just seems like an odd situation to point out possible flaws in the Cavs approach when they faltered against a team that uses a very similar approach. If they looked fatigued against the Knicks short rotation playing heavy minutes it seems like it would be a better example of Thibs strategy being more effective. The Pacers didn't look fatigued and they were healthy. The minutes police can have it both ways and neither can the pro-Thibs guys or people that think minutes don't matter.

The Knicks actually had a player come out against the way the minutes were handled as have people in the media. I have never been one to blame the injuries on Thibs but he never came across as a person too concerned with injuries from the minutes distribution, to guys obviously playing through pain that later on go on to miss long stretches of time to his handling of injury prone players.

I wasn't a fan of his handling the rotation this year. In previous years I have been ok with it but this year playing a 6-7 man rotation in November or not using your point guard depth immediately in the middle of a grueling road trip when Brunson went down seemed a bit extreme imo.

There are plenty of examples where I think Thibs could have handled the minutes better this year. I don't think he was trying to build stamina or strength. He was simply playing the guys he was most comfortable with.

yeah, too many unknowns for me as a fan to expound on. i don't wade into any of those waters. I've really only ever had one basis for my conversation here.

mikal seemed to be talking about wanting other players to get opportunity and keeping players fresher on a game-to-game basis with some of the starter minutes. i've also never spoken against his take on that. like, who tf am i to do that? but on the injury conversation, where so much of this gets centered... that's just where i don't think we have enough to stand the way we do on the narrative.

and coming back to the cavs... that regular season freshness just doesn't look to be as useful right now. not speaking against it. maybe it helped them get through the season. i don't know. but we are also looking at a knicks team whose wings played high minutes and appear up to the challenge.

I think people speak on the minutes from many different perspectives. Injuries do get a lot of attention and the team did have injuries this year and guys they played through some injuries. Mikal did say it wasn't fun on the body and he should know as well as anyone in the league since he hasn't ever missed a game.

Personally I didn't like Thibs minutes distribution this year from the lack of creativity, the unwillingness to adjust at times and the feeling it didn't build confidence in the bench players as a coach that not only had a quick hook with certain players but as a coach that wears his emotions on his sleeve where you can visibly see his frustration and lack of patience at any time.

We can come back to the Cavs but it just seems odd to point to Cavs and their regular season freshness not being valuable to them now and completely ignore the Pacers having success against the Cavs by using a very similar strategy. I can't imagine if Thibs was coaching the Pacers he would have taken a similar approach with the team and I can't imagine they would be as dangerous of a team with his approach honestly.

[Jeff Van Gully]

Wouldn't that be a better argument if the Cavs lost to a team like the Knicks that ran a short rotation with guys playing heavy minutes all year and not to another team that went 10 deep all year even in their current series?

Everyone on the Pacers averaged less than 34 minutes all year. Everyone on the Cavs averaged under 32 minutes. Should the Cavs or Pacers shorten their rotation in the regular season and played their guys more minutes in preparation for the possibility they would lose 3 rotation players in the postseason?

i don't think so. but i've also never been one of the avowed believers in the minutes theory. so that burden of proof isn't really on me. if a knick gets injured, i'm not going to blame minutes. cavs are injured now. i'm not blaming minutes. i find that fair and logical.

the cavs minutes approach was held up as a paramount and exemplar on the basis of health and performance. i've never had anything against it. but they've faltered in a big moment on both fronts so far. facts i don't care to suspend.

if anything, it further exemplifies that we don't know what we are talking about as fans. and the minutes conversation has always been an oversimplification of impact on health and performance.

if the next level of the argument is that the cavs needed to maintain their traditional minutes distribution to perform well, then shouldn't they have stayed 10-deep? next man up? because they didn't do that. maybe kenny atkinson knew he couldn't just turn to chuma okeke and jaylon tyson when he could barely turn to javonte green and craig porter jr. he turned to his good players for a bump up (to, quite frankly, reasonable starter minutes -- especially in the throes of playoff war). and they didn't have it. it's not me talking trash. the people calling the game in-person are talking about how these guys don't look built for that kind of game. i take no pleasure in it.

minutes police can't really have it both ways. because there was also a plenty of vehement guarantee of health-based knick destruction that did not happen. certainly not before cleveland's.

I don't know. It just seems like an odd situation to point out possible flaws in the Cavs approach when they faltered against a team that uses a very similar approach. If they looked fatigued against the Knicks short rotation playing heavy minutes it seems like it would be a better example of Thibs strategy being more effective. The Pacers didn't look fatigued and they were healthy. The minutes police can have it both ways and neither can the pro-Thibs guys or people that think minutes don't matter.

The Knicks actually had a player come out against the way the minutes were handled as have people in the media. I have never been one to blame the injuries on Thibs but he never came across as a person too concerned with injuries from the minutes distribution, to guys obviously playing through pain that later on go on to miss long stretches of time to his handling of injury prone players.

I wasn't a fan of his handling the rotation this year. In previous years I have been ok with it but this year playing a 6-7 man rotation in November or not using your point guard depth immediately in the middle of a grueling road trip when Brunson went down seemed a bit extreme imo.

There are plenty of examples where I think Thibs could have handled the minutes better this year. I don't think he was trying to build stamina or strength. He was simply playing the guys he was most comfortable with.

by the way, i appreciate the engagement.

re-reading here, i think you're missing my point about the relationship between minutes and injury. i'm not saying that low minutes caused the injuries. i'm saying that if low minutes prevented them, this would be a team that isn't experiencing injuries. clearly there are other factors. the pacers being healthy has no bearing on that concept. the cavs being injured and the knicks being healthy would be exhibits for that discussion if you wanted to have it.

all that said, i've also said i don't have any problem with how the cavs handle their minutes. but we are actually seeing in the flesh is guys who are out of condition for big minutes they may be needed to play. that's it. the knicks won't be that because of how they live.

thibs says from his own mouth that his rotations address preparation for the playoffs and being in playoff shape. if anything, he took his foot off the minutes gas down the strength after watching players' capacity to push it during the season. we know both the minds and bodies are willing. everyone's banged up and tired. who can push through right now? i know who couldn't last night. it was sad af.

and lastly, minutes police are not a monolith. neither are, i believe the perjorative is "thibslobbers." i don't treat either group as such. there is a mix of opinions and even agendas in some cases. it's all good. i don't 100% agree with pretty much any of the other 2 or 3 thibs fans on here. i also don't purport to have any definitive evidence about anything. i don't challenge benefits of rest. i be watching games wanting some of that same risk mitigation at times. but when people come with the thesis that minutes definitively cause x, y, and z... it sometimes just feels convenient when these same injuries happen regardless of minutes distribution.

you got some folks ready to peacock and pin any injury on the coach and minutes before they even know severity. but that energy is nowhere near the same when the knicks aren't hurt, or when the minutes models are.

anything beyond that, i'm not trying to dissect because none of us have the intel.

[Jeff Van Gully]

I don't know. It just seems like an odd situation to point out possible flaws in the Cavs approach when they faltered against a team that uses a very similar approach. If they looked fatigued against the Knicks short rotation playing heavy minutes it seems like it would be a better example of Thibs strategy being more effective. The Pacers didn't look fatigued and they were healthy. The minutes police can have it both ways and neither can the pro-Thibs guys or people that think minutes don't matter.

The Knicks actually had a player come out against the way the minutes were handled as have people in the media. I have never been one to blame the injuries on Thibs but he never came across as a person too concerned with injuries from the minutes distribution, to guys obviously playing through pain that later on go on to miss long stretches of time to his handling of injury prone players.

I wasn't a fan of his handling the rotation this year. In previous years I have been ok with it but this year playing a 6-7 man rotation in November or not using your point guard depth immediately in the middle of a grueling road trip when Brunson went down seemed a bit extreme imo.

There are plenty of examples where I think Thibs could have handled the minutes better this year. I don't think he was trying to build stamina or strength. He was simply playing the guys he was most comfortable with.

yeah, too many unknowns for me as a fan to expound on. i don't wade into any of those waters. I've really only ever had one basis for my conversation here.

mikal seemed to be talking about wanting other players to get opportunity and keeping players fresher on a game-to-game basis with some of the starter minutes. i've also never spoken against his take on that. like, who tf am i to do that? but on the injury conversation, where so much of this gets centered... that's just where i don't think we have enough to stand the way we do on the narrative.

and coming back to the cavs... that regular season freshness just doesn't look to be as useful right now. not speaking against it. maybe it helped them get through the season. i don't know. but we are also looking at a knicks team whose wings played high minutes and appear up to the challenge.

I think people speak on the minutes from many different perspectives. Injuries do get a lot of attention and the team did have injuries this year and guys they played through some injuries. Mikal did say it wasn't fun on the body and he should know as well as anyone in the league since he hasn't ever missed a game.

Personally I didn't like Thibs minutes distribution this year from the lack of creativity, the unwillingness to adjust at times and the feeling it didn't build confidence in the bench players as a coach that not only had a quick hook with certain players but as a coach that wears his emotions on his sleeve where you can visibly see his frustration and lack of patience at any time.

We can come back to the Cavs but it just seems odd to point to Cavs and their regular season freshness not being valuable to them now and completely ignore the Pacers having success against the Cavs by using a very similar strategy. I can't imagine if Thibs was coaching the Pacers he would have taken a similar approach with the team and I can't imagine they would be as dangerous of a team with his approach honestly.

saw this after my last post. but i think i speak to some of this in there, especially my thoughts on the pacers bit. thanks again.

[St Knick]

They have players out with injury. Are you suggesting they were injured from playing less minutes?

i think the point is that the minutes mitigation didn't save the cavs from injury or injure the healthy knicks.

also, the real concern that the announcers were pointing out... cavs don't look conditioned for playoff minutes.

juxtapose against the knicks looking very gully down the stretch of long, ugly games.

It's nonsense. When you have players getting overuse injuries in December/January there is an absolute connection to playing too many minutes. Conditioning can be achieved on an exercise bike. Not fighting through screens for 44 mpg at an 82 game clip. It's silly to even suggest that they aren't in shape after 82 games. No matter how many minutes they played. The less ware and tare on the body the better for long term. It's really not that complicated and we don't need to do mental gymnastics to validate stupid decisions.

Hard disagree on this specific assertion. In my experience, there is no substitution for in game reps for conditioning as it relates to actually playing basketball. Exercise bike (and other stuff) certainly help establish a baseline fitness, but nothing compares to actually exerting your body to perform on the court. If I haven't played ball in a few weeks, but have been in the gym, I still get winded quicker when I do return to the court.

[JayTWill]

i don't think so. but i've also never been one of the avowed believers in the minutes theory. so that burden of proof isn't really on me. if a knick gets injured, i'm not going to blame minutes. cavs are injured now. i'm not blaming minutes. i find that fair and logical.

the cavs minutes approach was held up as a paramount and exemplar on the basis of health and performance. i've never had anything against it. but they've faltered in a big moment on both fronts so far. facts i don't care to suspend.

if anything, it further exemplifies that we don't know what we are talking about as fans. and the minutes conversation has always been an oversimplification of impact on health and performance.

if the next level of the argument is that the cavs needed to maintain their traditional minutes distribution to perform well, then shouldn't they have stayed 10-deep? next man up? because they didn't do that. maybe kenny atkinson knew he couldn't just turn to chuma okeke and jaylon tyson when he could barely turn to javonte green and craig porter jr. he turned to his good players for a bump up (to, quite frankly, reasonable starter minutes -- especially in the throes of playoff war). and they didn't have it. it's not me talking trash. the people calling the game in-person are talking about how these guys don't look built for that kind of game. i take no pleasure in it.

minutes police can't really have it both ways. because there was also a plenty of vehement guarantee of health-based knick destruction that did not happen. certainly not before cleveland's.

I don't know. It just seems like an odd situation to point out possible flaws in the Cavs approach when they faltered against a team that uses a very similar approach. If they looked fatigued against the Knicks short rotation playing heavy minutes it seems like it would be a better example of Thibs strategy being more effective. The Pacers didn't look fatigued and they were healthy. The minutes police can have it both ways and neither can the pro-Thibs guys or people that think minutes don't matter.

The Knicks actually had a player come out against the way the minutes were handled as have people in the media. I have never been one to blame the injuries on Thibs but he never came across as a person too concerned with injuries from the minutes distribution, to guys obviously playing through pain that later on go on to miss long stretches of time to his handling of injury prone players.

I wasn't a fan of his handling the rotation this year. In previous years I have been ok with it but this year playing a 6-7 man rotation in November or not using your point guard depth immediately in the middle of a grueling road trip when Brunson went down seemed a bit extreme imo.

There are plenty of examples where I think Thibs could have handled the minutes better this year. I don't think he was trying to build stamina or strength. He was simply playing the guys he was most comfortable with.

by the way, i appreciate the engagement.

re-reading here, i think you're missing my point about the relationship between minutes and injury. i'm not saying that low minutes caused the injuries. i'm saying that if low minutes prevented them, this would be a team that isn't experiencing injuries. clearly there are other factors. the pacers being healthy has no bearing on that concept. the cavs being injured and the knicks being healthy would be exhibits for that discussion if you wanted to have it.

all that said, i've also said i don't have any problem with how the cavs handle their minutes. but we are actually seeing in the flesh is guys who are out of condition for big minutes they may be needed to play. that's it. the knicks won't be that because of how they live.

thibs says from his own mouth that his rotations address preparation for the playoffs and being in playoff shape. if anything, he took his foot off the minutes gas down the strength after watching players' capacity to push it during the season. we know both the minds and bodies are willing. everyone's banged up and tired. who can push through right now? i know who couldn't last night. it was sad af.

and lastly, minutes police are not a monolith. neither are, i believe the perjorative is "thibslobbers." i don't treat either group as such. there is a mix of opinions and even agendas in some cases. it's all good. i don't 100% agree with pretty much any of the other 2 or 3 thibs fans on here. i also don't purport to have any definitive evidence about anything. i don't challenge benefits of rest. i be watching games wanting some of that same risk mitigation at times. but when people come with the thesis that minutes definitively cause x, y, and z... it sometimes just feels convenient when these same injuries happen regardless of minutes distribution.

you got some folks ready to peacock and pin any injury on the coach and minutes before they even know severity. but that energy is nowhere near the same when the knicks aren't hurt, or when the minutes models are.

anything beyond that, i'm not trying to dissect because none of us have the intel.

I'm not sure why the Pacers have no bearing on the concept since they basically use the same strategy as the Cavs. If the Knicks went on to meet the Pacers in the Conference finals with both teams healthy and somehow the Pacers won the series with the Knicks fading in the 4th quarter in multiple games wouldn't that be an example of running a longer rotation without guys playing 40+ minutes possibly being a better strategy than Thibs'? It is possible that the Pacers deep rotation and pace would expose the conditioning and wear and tear on the Knicks roster.

Right now we are not watching the two different strategies played out against one another.

[Gravy]

One thing this playoffs has proved is that the bench is terrible which was the reason for the minutes issue. Teams like the Cavs are much deeper, the minutes police make it sound all the teams are equal and Thibs hates the bench for no reason.

[8516knicks]

Where are the DRAFT PICK POLICE NOW???

[Jalen Bluntson]

i think the point is that the minutes mitigation didn't save the cavs from injury or injure the healthy knicks.

also, the real concern that the announcers were pointing out... cavs don't look conditioned for playoff minutes.

juxtapose against the knicks looking very gully down the stretch of long, ugly games.

It's nonsense. When you have players getting overuse injuries in December/January there is an absolute connection to playing too many minutes. Conditioning can be achieved on an exercise bike. Not fighting through screens for 44 mpg at an 82 game clip. It's silly to even suggest that they aren't in shape after 82 games. No matter how many minutes they played. The less ware and tare on the body the better for long term. It's really not that complicated and we don't need to do mental gymnastics to validate stupid decisions.

Hard disagree on this specific assertion. In my experience, there is no substitution for in game reps for conditioning as it relates to actually playing basketball. Exercise bike (and other stuff) certainly help establish a baseline fitness, but nothing compares to actually exerting your body to perform on the court. If I haven't played ball in a few weeks, but have been in the gym, I still get winded quicker when I do return to the court.

Machine parts don't last forever. Overuse strains them. Human bodies are no different. This discussion is ridiculous and I'm out.