1/12/2009 Woelfel: Conley deal waiting for Herb (poll added)

[Downtown]

Darrell Arthur as well? Hello, have any of you watched a Grizzlies game this year? They are probably the weakest team in the entire league at power forward. Arthur is still finding his way through the nuances of the NBA while Hakim Warrick, a terific offensive player, simple has no thickness to his wirey frame to play a lick of defence. Add in that Darko Milicic, their backup center and power forward, is out for a while with a broken knuckle. So now the poor Grizzlies have been reduced to signing Darius Miles to see if he can play power forward for them.

So do you still think the Grizzlies would throw in Darrell Arthur?

[aboveAverage]

Really? Do you really want to argue this? I swear, your manlove of Conley is out of control. Did he save you from a burning house when your were young or something?

Sessions stats this year:
10.8 ppg, 4.5 asst, 2.8 rebounds in 24 minutes per game. Shooting 44% from the field. When given the ability to play more, we saw how Sessions numbers skyrocketed. He has played poor this last month, but we have seen what he can do when given the chance. Plus he's 6-4, has an ability to get to the hoop at will, and has a good work ethic. His defense is sloppy as of now, but certainly not terrible, and it can get better.

Conley's stats this year:
7.5 ppg, 3.1 asst, 2.9 rebounds in 25 minutes a game. Shooting 41% from the field. And he is 3 inches shorter than Ramon, and can't play over Kyle Lowry mainly because his lack of defense and poor shooting ability.

Yet you think that he is somehow a better passer than Ramon (averages less assists per game), a better defender than Ramon (there's a reason he isn't getting more PT in Memphis), and a better leader (which we can't really tell at this point).

Bottom line is, everything points to Sessions being the better player, plus we are throwing in our top 10 pick this year, and you still think this is a great trade.

No one's saying Conley is any good. We're saying Sessions hasn't been any good as well.

I don't understand your response at all.

[ReasonablySober]

i don't think so. i think that hammond bought into the april ramon hype and it's fading quickly, and also thought that joe wasn't as much of a project as he's turning out to be. with all of this fueled by skiles wanting to pick his players. not necessarily an awful situation. of course, if luke is gone when his contract is done, and conley plays like he has so far, we're gonna have a major point guard shortage fairly soon. just my opinion of course

Did he ever buy in? Maybe I missed it, but I never got the impression that Hammond, nor Skiles, was ever committed to him or felt he was the answer.

[WEFFPIM]

I don't understand your response at all.

Let me help you out here. You said you aren't a fan of the deal because of "seeing how good Sessions has become" (roughly cited). We asked you to explain. You then compare Conley to Sessions, in which Sessions is statistically better than Conley. But that doesn't answer your question. He is better than Conley statistically. That doesn't mean that Sessions is any good overall, which is what your first comment implied.

Savvy?

[unklchuk]

I never meant to try to prove that Hammond could not have made a mistake.

Only to make the case that it didn't HAVE TO BE a mistake.

And to make a case for "grays." These debates are usually all black-and-white - which makes things easier, I suppose. But IMNSHOTOOpinion, GMs make their decisions in a world of grays.

(No expert, but I doubt gummi bears come in grays)

[jerrod]

i don't think so. i think that hammond bought into the april ramon hype and it's fading quickly, and also thought that joe wasn't as much of a project as he's turning out to be. with all of this fueled by skiles wanting to pick his players. not necessarily an awful situation. of course, if luke is gone when his contract is done, and conley plays like he has so far, we're gonna have a major point guard shortage fairly soon. just my opinion of course

Did he ever buy in? Maybe I missed it, but I never got the impression that Hammond, nor Skiles, was ever committed to him or felt he was the answer.

i think we were told repeatedly by a certain someone that hammond was a big fan. so take that for what you will

[WEFFPIM]

i don't think so. i think that hammond bought into the april ramon hype and it's fading quickly, and also thought that joe wasn't as much of a project as he's turning out to be. with all of this fueled by skiles wanting to pick his players. not necessarily an awful situation. of course, if luke is gone when his contract is done, and conley plays like he has so far, we're gonna have a major point guard shortage fairly soon. just my opinion of course

Did he ever buy in? Maybe I missed it, but I never got the impression that Hammond, nor Skiles, was ever committed to him or felt he was the answer.

I think Hammond initially did but quickly cooled on him through the offseason, sparking the Mo/Ridnour deal.

[aboveAverage]

I don't understand your response at all.

Let me help you out here. You said you aren't a fan of the deal because of "seeing how good Sessions has become" (roughly cited). We asked you to explain. You then compare Conley to Sessions, in which Sessions is statistically better than Conley. But that doesn't answer your question. He is better than Conley statistically. That doesn't mean that Sessions is any good overall, which is what your first comment implied.

Savvy?

Well I guess we all have different standards of what good is then. I would say by showing those stats, that shows Sessions is doing quite well as a backup point guard.

[BuckFan25226]

I was excited the first 15 games or so when he was putting up 15/6 too. But the fact is, he's sucked since.

I don't know what to think here, but am starting to come around with your thought that Session's overall game has too many holes for him to be a top-tier/top ten PG which is where we should be aiming with this. He just isn't a dominant ball handler under pressure when playing PG, but that is what you need.

His really good play this year came with him as the SG, where he's got an uncanny ability to get the rack and lay it in. But ultimately I'm not sure you can ever win with a 6-3" SG who doesn't have a killer outside shot (like Andrew Toney did). So at best we come back to maybe a little better version of Mo Williams that will cost us $30mm come July 1st.

Yup, I also don't understand people saying it's as easy as improving his ball handling skills. It's not that simple, ball handling is something that can be improved. But the great ball handlers out there like Nash, Paul, among others didn't just work harder at ball handling then anyone else, they were born with that skill. Like shooting, I don't care how hard Ridnour works on his shooting, he'll never be the shooter ray allen is. Ray was born with that sweet stroke. To me, Ramon doesn't just need a little ball handling improvement, he needs a lot. I get extremely nervous every time Ramon brings the ball up when he has pressure or I see a trap coming. He needs a lot of defensive improvement, he needs major shooting improvement as well. However, I do feel he'll fit nicely next to a guy like Mayo.

[power4wardjinx]

Unfortunately, it doesn't work like that, because we see how good Sessions has become.

How good has Sessions become?

Better than Conley. Whatever that's worth.

Conley's smarter than Sessions and takes care of the ball better, though that also says he's not trying to do a heck of a lot with it. Maybe that's what Skiles wants.

[unklchuk]

"Did he ever buy in? Maybe I missed it, but I never got the impression that Hammond, nor Skiles, was ever committed to him or felt he was the answer."

Yes. I never thought any of the Bucks managements liked Sessions as much as the enthusiasm here. All the comments I heard were no more than moderately favorable.

[aboveAverage]

Well I've made my position clear. Most people here are pretty much set in their beliefs. I will put my trust in Hammond if he does make this deal, but if it turns out to be a bad deal for us, I will lose a lot of faith in Hammond.

[WEFFPIM]

I don't understand your response at all.

Let me help you out here. You said you aren't a fan of the deal because of "seeing how good Sessions has become" (roughly cited). We asked you to explain. You then compare Conley to Sessions, in which Sessions is statistically better than Conley. But that doesn't answer your question. He is better than Conley statistically. That doesn't mean that Sessions is any good overall, which is what your first comment implied.

Savvy?

Well I guess we all have different standards of what good is then. I would say by showing those stats, that shows Sessions is doing quite well as a backup point guard.

No, we don't have different standards of what is good. I see Sessions' stats as average for a backup COMBO guard, which is what he is.

Also, the majority of those numbers came when he was forced to play because of Redd's injury.

[Jollay]

God, I love a good "imminent" trade thread.

I have no idea how high Sessions, Conley, or Alexanders' ceiling is. Guess I'm the only one, because everyone else seems to.

But I am for the trade and agree with PP and DB as long as we get a 2nd.

And subsequently sign Anthony Mason.

[BuckFan25226]

I COMPLETELY trust Hammond in this deal. Potsie just hasn't developed as planned. Even a project should be able to deliver more. I've always seen Ramon as a 2nd string guy in the league, I don't think he has it in him to be a starter and a leader. Conley is a great talent, I loved watching him at Ohio State and expected him to be very good in the right system. If this is going to happen, I will be VERY optimistic about the Bucks.

You easily have taken over the best name on this board award, IMO

[paulpressey25]

God, I love a good "imminent" trade thread..

Me too. These are outstanding.

I do think this one comes off given that the idea was spilled to the MJS on Saturday.

[europa]

God, I love a good "imminent" trade thread..

Me too. These are outstanding.

I do think this one comes off given that the idea was spilled to the MJS on Saturday.

I think Enlund was definitely tipped off about something. But the guy in Memphis heard about it too because that's where the specifics of the deal first were reported.

[WRau1]

Yeah, MouteKicksBoute is a good name.

I don't like the trade unless there is more happening that we don't know about, but I trust Hammond and Skiles. I don't think Hammond ever fully bought into the Sessions hype, esp w/ the outbidding of other teams for Lue and Sessions rocky preseason. Didn't Skiles spend time w/ Ramon in he SummerLeague? That could've been it for Sessions. BRING BACK ERSAN, WOOOO!!!

[Ayt]

Well I guess we all have different standards of what good is then. I would say by showing those stats, that shows Sessions is doing quite well as a backup point guard.

No, we don't have different standards of what is good. I see Sessions' stats as average for a backup COMBO guard, which is what he is.

Also, the majority of those numbers came when he was forced to play because of Redd's injury.

I don't see why you'd knock a guy for playing quite well when forced to step in after Redd went down. Sessions played extremely well during that period, all things considered. Plus, it didn't all come playing with Ridnour. He still played a lot of minutes as the backup PG as well, and was the PG in the 4th in a number of games with Ridnour on the bench because he wasn't playing well.

[trwi7]

We're going to need a poll if this trade goes down to see who's for and against it. Count me in as against it. I never got the Conley love on this board.