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Nazrmohamed wrote:

stuporman wrote:

And100 wrote:
Your first and last sentences are obviously true, but neither changes whether is it ACTUALLY standard practice for top 5 picks to start.

I know Wiggins and Parker did, and Noels did for like 70 of the 75 games or so he did, despite not playing competitively for a year and a 1/2.

I suspect we'd find most (but of course not all) top picks do. The crux of the question IS is SOP, not should it be.

One of your many assumptions seems to include that there is an actual standard practice for top 5 picks when it's not clear that there is. In fact, it seems more reasonable to think that teams handle it with each player according to what the player shows they can do and not with a blanket practice.

The other thing to consider as well are the goals and overall makeup of the team. The Knicks stunk last year enough to land a lottery pick, yet at the same time want to get out of that situation right away. We know we don't have a pick next year and while that isn't the only deciding factor, couple that with the fact that we signed two starters that are 27 plus and have Melo and Calderon, whether you feel this is a playoff team on paper or not, its a team where the top tier of players are vets. That doesn't mean rookies should be buried, in fact I wanna give them near starters minutes but feel that at least on this team theres no reason to rush to start them. To me Grant could develop, get good minutes as 6th and 7th men.

You are aware that there is a middle ground between being thrusting a rookie into the starting lineup right away and being "buried" on the bench, aren't you? I'd rather let their play dictate how many minutes they get according to how effective they are in them and how their body holds up with those minutes. Not predetermine before they even get to their first camp and on the floor in preseason games.

And100 wrote:

Capn'O wrote:O'Quinn, imo.

Huh. I know the triangle isn't predicated on the 3, but O'Quinn (beside being MUCH more effective as a 5) doesn't seem like he'd help Melo from a spacing standpoint.

He'll help by getting stops and boards and making good passes. Long term, he's not and ideal fit next to Melo but unless Williams can show something he hasn't before, he's likely the best option starting the season if Porz's long term development is prioritized. If he were the ideal fit, he'd have been paid a whole lot more this offseason.

Capn'O wrote:

And100 wrote:

Capn'O wrote:O'Quinn, imo.

Huh. I know the triangle isn't predicated on the 3, but O'Quinn (beside being MUCH more effective as a 5) doesn't seem like he'd help Melo from a spacing standpoint.

He'll help by getting stops and boards and making good passes. Long term, he's not and ideal fit next to Melo but unless Williams can show something he hasn't before, he's likely the best option starting the season if Porz's long term development is prioritized. If he were the ideal fit, he'd have been paid a whole lot more this offseason.

Still not seeing it.

I understand there is a "school" of thought about bringing rookies along slowly and how that's best for their development, but I'm relatively certain that school is based on intuitive logic rather than actual documented evidence.

Understand I'm not saying if he looks overmatched throw him out there, but I'm also saying don't outsmart yourself. If he looks like he can play (and more accurately, play the 4 better than anyone else), play him, don't set limits or a strategy based on some general assumption about rookies.

And100 wrote:

Capn'O wrote:

And100 wrote:
Huh. I know the triangle isn't predicated on the 3, but O'Quinn (beside being MUCH more effective as a 5) doesn't seem like he'd help Melo from a spacing standpoint.

He'll help by getting stops and boards and making good passes. Long term, he's not and ideal fit next to Melo but unless Williams can show something he hasn't before, he's likely the best option starting the season if Porz's long term development is prioritized. If he were the ideal fit, he'd have been paid a whole lot more this offseason.

Still not seeing it.

I understand there is a "school" of thought about bringing rookies along slowly and how that's best for their development, but I'm relatively certain that school is based on intuitive logic rather than actual documented evidence.

Understand I'm not saying if he looks overmatched throw him out there, but I'm also saying don't outsmart yourself. If he looks like he can play (and more accurately, play the 4 better than anyone else), play him, don't set limits or a strategy based on some general assumption about rookies.

If Kri6 shows during camp and preseason he has the goods to be able to play meaningful minutes and is the more capable starter, i seriously doubt they'll have him come off the bench...just because. I think the minutes thing might be because of his frame, not actually his game, but thats just my opinion.

Capn'O wrote:

And100 wrote:

Capn'O wrote:O'Quinn, imo.

Huh. I know the triangle isn't predicated on the 3, but O'Quinn (beside being MUCH more effective as a 5) doesn't seem like he'd help Melo from a spacing standpoint.

He'll help by getting stops and boards and making good passes. Long term, he's not and ideal fit next to Melo but unless Williams can show something he hasn't before, he's likely the best option starting the season if Porz's long term development is prioritized. If he were the ideal fit, he'd have been paid a whole lot more this offseason.

I think you're under estimating Kyle's range. He can play next to Melo but unless he makes some big leap he isn't the solution long term simply because his skills aren't good enough not because his skills wouldn't fit.

E86 wrote:

Capn'O wrote:

And100 wrote:
Huh. I know the triangle isn't predicated on the 3, but O'Quinn (beside being MUCH more effective as a 5) doesn't seem like he'd help Melo from a spacing standpoint.

He'll help by getting stops and boards and making good passes. Long term, he's not and ideal fit next to Melo but unless Williams can show something he hasn't before, he's likely the best option starting the season if Porz's long term development is prioritized. If he were the ideal fit, he'd have been paid a whole lot more this offseason.

I think you're under estimating Kyle's range. He can play next to Melo but unless he makes some big leap he isn't the solution long term simply because his skills aren't good enough not because his skills wouldn't fit.

Agreed.

I'd say KOQ is solid out to around 18 ft as a shooter.

And100 wrote:

Capn'O wrote:

And100 wrote:
Huh. I know the triangle isn't predicated on the 3, but O'Quinn (beside being MUCH more effective as a 5) doesn't seem like he'd help Melo from a spacing standpoint.

He'll help by getting stops and boards and making good passes. Long term, he's not and ideal fit next to Melo but unless Williams can show something he hasn't before, he's likely the best option starting the season if Porz's long term development is prioritized. If he were the ideal fit, he'd have been paid a whole lot more this offseason.

Still not seeing it.

I understand there is a "school" of thought about bringing rookies along slowly and how that's best for their development, but I'm relatively certain that school is based on intuitive logic rather than actual documented evidence.

Understand I'm not saying if he looks overmatched throw him out there, but I'm also saying don't outsmart yourself. If he looks like he can play (and more accurately, play the 4 better than anyone else), play him, don't set limits or a strategy based on some general assumption about rookies.

1. Phil is from that school. He didn't build it but he now runs it.

2. It's totally documented. An example would be looking at rookie on-off numbers. They're almost all bad. Even relative to their bad teams. Especially the younger kids. Look at Durant's on-off as a rookie. Wiggins. Parker. Noel. Hell, even Anthony Davis. Then compare it to recent seasons. Even with the top prospects - only a few guys can impact their teams positively coming straight into the league.

E86 wrote:

Capn'O wrote:

And100 wrote:
Huh. I know the triangle isn't predicated on the 3, but O'Quinn (beside being MUCH more effective as a 5) doesn't seem like he'd help Melo from a spacing standpoint.

He'll help by getting stops and boards and making good passes. Long term, he's not and ideal fit next to Melo but unless Williams can show something he hasn't before, he's likely the best option starting the season if Porz's long term development is prioritized. If he were the ideal fit, he'd have been paid a whole lot more this offseason.

I think you're under estimating Kyle's range. He can play next to Melo but unless he makes some big leap he isn't the solution long term simply because his skills aren't good enough not because his skills wouldn't fit.

That's actually exactly what I'm arguing. That Kyle will start the year starting at the 4 and Porz will grow into that role and take it.

I get the feeling that Kyle will be starting the first game too. Its a long season and I am sure Porzingis will find his way there eventually.

Capn'O wrote:

E86 wrote:

Capn'O wrote:
He'll help by getting stops and boards and making good passes. Long term, he's not and ideal fit next to Melo but unless Williams can show something he hasn't before, he's likely the best option starting the season if Porz's long term development is prioritized. If he were the ideal fit, he'd have been paid a whole lot more this offseason.

I think you're under estimating Kyle's range. He can play next to Melo but unless he makes some big leap he isn't the solution long term simply because his skills aren't good enough not because his skills wouldn't fit.

That's actually exactly what I'm arguing. That Kyle will start the year starting at the 4 and Porz will grow into that role and take it.

that's exactly what's going to happen. KP does not currently fit next to Robin, actually. Kyle's stats will get a bump playing next to Lopez and the trio of Kyle, Robin and Melo actually has a good chance at being quite synergistic. Once KP figures out how to box out and rebound he's going to be better off with the second unit.

E86 wrote:

Capn'O wrote:

E86 wrote:
I think you're under estimating Kyle's range. He can play next to Melo but unless he makes some big leap he isn't the solution long term simply because his skills aren't good enough not because his skills wouldn't fit.

That's actually exactly what I'm arguing. That Kyle will start the year starting at the 4 and Porz will grow into that role and take it.

that's exactly what's going to happen. KP does not currently fit next to Robin, actually. Kyle's stats will get a bump playing next to Lopez and the trio of Kyle, Robin and Melo actually has a good chance at being quite synergistic. Once KP figures out how to box out and rebound he's going to be better off with the second unit.

Why not? His jumper makes him ideal on offense, and on D he can take the more mobile player and allow Rolo to protect the rim.

All the focus on Williams is a bit much. I don't see him as getting 36 minutes a game any time soon. If he does better than we think, great. If he can't, too bad.

We should all be happy with what Phil said about Thanasis, "He played in the D-League for us at Westchester and will come to camp." Yep, come to camp. That's about it - not giving him a roster spot if he doesn't really impress.

Fcuking Asola took some quotes from Phil and used the incorrectly to make him look bad. That guy needs to be out of a job fast.

I think we ask if KP is "NBA Ready." You know who wasn't NBA ready? Phil wasn't ready to be the president. His first few months didn't pan out. But he worked his ass off looking for FA's and draft picks, assess his own team really well, and made some good choices in replacing 13 or 14 of the 17 we started with last preseason. What other team had to do an entire makeover? Only us. Now, he's showing us what he knows and what he can do, and I'm glad to see this.

Did you all see the ESPN poll? They want their readers to let them know if Phil will last as president until the "bitter end." The think he's gone in 2 years or less. Fcuking morons at ESPN. They should have asked us - they missed the essence of what Phil did, and they as usual are trolling Knicks fans everywhere.

GONYK wrote:

E86 wrote:

Capn'O wrote:
That's actually exactly what I'm arguing. That Kyle will start the year starting at the 4 and Porz will grow into that role and take it.

that's exactly what's going to happen. KP does not currently fit next to Robin, actually. Kyle's stats will get a bump playing next to Lopez and the trio of Kyle, Robin and Melo actually has a good chance at being quite synergistic. Once KP figures out how to box out and rebound he's going to be better off with the second unit.

Why not? His jumper makes him ideal on offense, and on D he can take the more mobile player and allow Rolo to protect the rim.

Neither rebound well, which is interesting since both are technically long term investments. kris6 has the instincts but not the mass, roLo isnt a good rebounder at all for his position.

^I think he's referring to how ROLO's rebound numbers are low. My theory is that they'll go up next to Porz. ROLO boxed out and let Aldridge, Lillard, and Batum get a lot of boards. Helped the break get going. Porz can box out pretty well already. If ROLO needs to clean up the boards, he will.

Thugger HBC wrote:

GONYK wrote:

E86 wrote:
that's exactly what's going to happen. KP does not currently fit next to Robin, actually. Kyle's stats will get a bump playing next to Lopez and the trio of Kyle, Robin and Melo actually has a good chance at being quite synergistic. Once KP figures out how to box out and rebound he's going to be better off with the second unit.

Why not? His jumper makes him ideal on offense, and on D he can take the more mobile player and allow Rolo to protect the rim.

Neither rebound well, which is interesting since both are technically long term investments. kris6 has the instincts but not the mass, roLo isnt a good rebounder at all for his position.

Eh, I think you are underestimating Rolo's impact on team rebounding with his ability to box out.

On top of that, rebounding alone does not negate all the other strengths of that pairing.

BKlutch wrote:
Did you all see the ESPN poll? They want their readers to let them know if Phil will last as president until the "bitter end." The think he's gone in 2 years or less. Fcuking morons at ESPN. They should have asked us - they missed the essence of what Phil did, and they as usual are trolling Knicks fans everywhere.

2 years from now would put Phil in year 4 of the 5. I dont see anything unreasonable about that, especially due to his age and health, but more importantly whether the team has progressed.

Not saying it will happen, but if the team is still in the lotto 2 years from now or barely making the playoffs and losing quick, do you think Phil stays for the last year? or do you think there is zero shot of a mediocre team by then?

GONYK wrote:

E86 wrote:

Capn'O wrote:
That's actually exactly what I'm arguing. That Kyle will start the year starting at the 4 and Porz will grow into that role and take it.

that's exactly what's going to happen. KP does not currently fit next to Robin, actually. Kyle's stats will get a bump playing next to Lopez and the trio of Kyle, Robin and Melo actually has a good chance at being quite synergistic. Once KP figures out how to box out and rebound he's going to be better off with the second unit.

Why not? His jumper makes him ideal on offense, and on D he can take the more mobile player and allow Rolo to protect the rim.

Too passive at the moment and rebounding instincts aren't there yet. RoLo is a player who is quite cerebral and his positioning on the court allows more aggressive players to be successful. I think KP will eventually become a great fit but I think pairing him next RoLo right now will put him in an awkward position of having to think a bit more than simply playing within himself. RoLo compliments veterans, imo.

GONYK wrote:

Thugger HBC wrote:

GONYK wrote:
Why not? His jumper makes him ideal on offense, and on D he can take the more mobile player and allow Rolo to protect the rim.

Neither rebound well, which is interesting since both are technically long term investments. kris6 has the instincts but not the mass, roLo isnt a good rebounder at all for his position.

Eh, I think you are underestimating Rolo's impact on team rebounding with his ability to box out.

On top of that, rebounding alone does not negate all the other strengths of that pairing.

The rebounding aspect is concern though, we can state team rebounding, but someone has to actually collect those rebounds, and very few on this club is really solid at that. RoLo has never really been a good rebounder. Other than Melo and his rebounding is at it's best collecting his misses, no one else really is a good rebounder. Doesnt mean Kri6 doesnt fit, but it's a real concern.

The "team" aspect has to contain someone who's adept at that aspect. Kinda like talking team defense and rolling out Calderon and Novak together, or what Woody would do at times with Amare and Bargs.

Thugger HBC wrote:

BKlutch wrote:
Did you all see the ESPN poll? They want their readers to let them know if Phil will last as president until the "bitter end." The think he's gone in 2 years or less. Fcuking morons at ESPN. They should have asked us - they missed the essence of what Phil did, and they as usual are trolling Knicks fans everywhere.

2 years from now would put Phil in year 4 of the 5. I dont see anything unreasonable about that, especially due to his age and health, but more importantly whether the team has progressed.

Not saying it will happen, but if the team is still in the lotto 2 years from now or barely making the playoffs and losing quick, do you think Phil stays for the last year? or do you think there is zero shot of a mediocre team by then?

IF this team is still in the lotto in 2 years from now, that means that nothing Phil did helped much at all. IF that happens, half of us will be dead, and the other half either insane or in jail from trying to forcibly remove Phil.

Most likely, his moves will being to prove themselves and we smile a lot and look forward to a better season each year for a number of years (until he retires and Dolan brings back Isiah).

ESPN wasn't asking if we keep him if things are bad, but they are essentially asking us to vote on whether what Phil is doing can help the team in the next year or two. If they were voting on being a contender this year, ok, we won't.

But the future? I'm thinking that's going to be a lot better. Some of the young guys we have now will be coming into their own as stars. We'll sign a good FA and Melo will be an older but still good star. We'll have a chance, and when Melo is on the downside, some new FA will want to join a team that has been contending for a year or two.

Thugger HBC wrote:

GONYK wrote:

Thugger HBC wrote:Neither rebound well, which is interesting since both are technically long term investments. kris6 has the instincts but not the mass, roLo isnt a good rebounder at all for his position.

Eh, I think you are underestimating Rolo's impact on team rebounding with his ability to box out.

On top of that, rebounding alone does not negate all the other strengths of that pairing.

The rebounding aspect is concern though, we can state team rebounding, but someone has to actually collect those rebounds, and very few on this club is really solid at that. RoLo has never really been a good rebounder. Other than Melo and his rebounding is at it's best collecting his misses, no one else really is a good rebounder. Doesnt mean Kri6 doesnt fit, but it's a real concern.

The "team" aspect has to contain someone who's adept at that aspect. Kinda like talking team defense and rolling out Calderon and Novak together, or what Woody would do at times with Amare and Bargs.

He'll pick up some of the slack. Next year we can add Batum And Kris will get better.