Game 33: Cleveland Cavaliers (19-9) @ Phoenix Suns (12-20)

[Revived]

How the hell did the Cavs have 41 three point attempts tonight? Do we not play any perimeter defense?

Suns have the worst defense in the NBA. No team gives up a higher FG% than the Suns.

And I think I read somewhere that's it's franchise worst mark so we have never had a worse defensive team in franchise history but I could be wrong on this.

[bwgood77]

How the hell did the Cavs have 41 three point attempts tonight? Do we not play any perimeter defense?

Suns have the worst defense in the NBA. No team gives up a higher FG% than the Suns.

And I think I read somewhere that's it's franchise worst mark so we have never had a worse defensive team in franchise history but I could be wrong on this.

Yeah, thus the reason they got rid of Longabardi (understudy of Thibs). It won't correct itself overnight, especially since the Cavs and all their great 3 pt shooters will make most teams look bad, as will the next two teams, so using those stats as normal league stats is skewed. It seems like you would know this. I can't decide if you know and pretend you don't, or just don't realize these things at all.

[bwgood77]

Utah without Gobert and Favors (starting front court) is probably worst team in the league.

......AND THEY STILL BEAT THE SIXERS!

Give Dan Snyder credit, he's done an unbelievable job developing their talent the last couple years.

Quin? Surely you don't think Dan Snyder has much to do with it. Yeah, Dante Exum is a stud. These guys have been world beaters. They are close to 500 after narrowly beating the Sixers.

I think Quin is a good coach. He certainly hasn't done more than Hornacek ever did though. They have gotten better draft picks and he inherited Favors, by far a better player than any Hornacek did. And on top of that, his GM got him Gobert.

[Blackification]

The biggest take away for me so far this season is that the 2pg system just doesn't work in the long run. As good as it looks on paper it is just not successful for the entire team, especially with ball dominant point guards that we seem to gravitate towards. We are a better team with a pg running as the only pg like Dragic did when bledsoe went down and Bledsoe did when knight went down.

Between Bledsoe and Knight, if this injury doesn't complicate things too much I pick Bledsoe, trade Knight and run with booker.

[bwgood77]

Another thing regarding defense...even getting rid of Longabardi, at this point, without Bledsoe, and playing young guys almost everywhere, unless we play Tucker and Chandler a ton, we are going to suck defensively. And I don't think people want to see Tucker and Chandler play a ton.

With the young guys, it will take time to realize how tough it is to play good defense in the nba, and they will have to work hard at it to get there. I know SF88 and others think the coach can say "play good D!" and it will automatically happen, but that's just unrealistic (and not because they are tuning him out, but because they don't have nba level defensive experience).

[thamadkant]

I think Sun's offense needs to be built around Warren...

He is crafty as heck.... to me, with confidence and more development, he can become a Harden-esque scorer at the SF position... using angles, craftiness and finesse to score...

His 3pt shot has improved so much.

[thamadkant]

If I was development coach.. I would benchmark the current Suns youth and develop them to the closest player.

Len = Valenciounas
Goodwin = Stephenson
Booker = Reddick
Warren = Jamison or Harden (SF non-play making version, just scoring)

[rsavaj]

Booker shot 5/6.

Jeff Hornacek, run plays for this rookie!!!!!!!!!!! Stupid ass coach.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

How do we know he doesn't

[rsavaj]

How the hell did the Cavs have 41 three point attempts tonight? Do we not play any perimeter defense?

Suns have the worst defense in the NBA. No team gives up a higher FG% than the Suns.

And I think I read somewhere that's it's franchise worst mark so we have never had a worse defensive team in franchise history but I could be wrong on this.

Worst DFG%, but still 17th in DRTG, so not worst in the league. Pretty bad though.

[Blackification]

Booker shot 5/6.

Jeff Hornacek, run plays for this rookie!!!!!!!!!!! Stupid ass coach.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

How do we know he doesn't

We do have players that seem to like to go rogue and do whatever they want on offense, Bledsoe, Knight, Tucker, and Markieff come to mind.

How many overdribbles into bad shots have we sign by Knight? Or Bledsoe drive into a crowd and lose the ball or try to pump fake into a stupid foul, or tucker post up and take a fadeaway, or anything Markieff has done this year.

[Revived]

About a half dozen NBA scouts are expected to be in attendance tonight to see the in disarray Suns' personnel with a side eye on the Cavs.

https://mobile.twitter.com/SpearsNBAYahoo/status/681589245065076736

Lol did he delete the tweet after the game?

[thamadkant]

Hornacek will probably resign or get fired after his 100th win... you know so that he can atleast say he got 100 wins... and also the FO not firing someone 1 win shy of 100 wins....

[Revived]

......AND THEY STILL BEAT THE SIXERS!

Give Quinn Snyder credit, he's done an unbelievable job developing their talent the last couple years.

Quin? Surely you don't think Dan Snyder has much to do with it. Yeah, Dante Exum is a stud. These guys have been world beaters. They are close to 500 after narrowly beating the Sixers.

I think Quin is a good coach. He certainly hasn't done more than Hornacek ever did though. They have gotten better draft picks and he inherited Favors, by far a better player than any Hornacek did. And on top of that, his GM got him Gobert.

Yes Quinn Snyder. And they've played without their best player Gobert for most of the season.

Not sure who said their "world beaters" but ok? Lol. They certainly look like they have a better future than us. Gobert, Hayward and Favors are probably all better than anyone we have and I don't know if its even close. And then of course Lyles, Exum and Hood are probably on the same level as Len, Booker and Warren for us. If Exum develops into the player that many project him to be, then that's another weapon for them. On the GB they have a thread for which young team has the best future and the Suns are not even an option while Utah most certainly is

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1419101#start_here

A shame about Exum's injury...I sure hope your not writing him off based on his rookie season.

Gobert was a good pick and Lindsey has said it on more than one occasion that Gobert was a guy that both Quinn and he wanted and that both were Gobert fans for some time. Much like during the Len pick presser, Hornacek said he was a big part of the Len pick and that he gave his approval for the Len pick and that he loved him as a prospect.

I always liked him before but I really gained ton of respect for Snyder after this

[tweet]https://twitter.com/DJJazzyJody/status/656682838574542848[/tweet]

And bro I know you really, really love Hornacek but you don't gotta defend him in every post man. Hornacek wasn't even mentioned in the posts that you quoted. But ok I'll take the bait,

His personal statistics will likely remain underwhelming all the way through this year, but the Jazz have shown phenomenal patience in allowing their rookies to work through struggles: from Rudy Gobert to Rodney Hood to even Derrick Favors, the Jazz have shown that they’ll stick with their young talent despite sub-par first-year statistics.

http://www.todaysfastbreak.com/nba-west/utah-jazz/cerebral-trey-lyles-will-figure/

Imagine Hornacek ever being willing to do something like that? Hell no and its showed through Len, Goodwin, Warren and until a couple days ago, Booker.

[Revived]

How the hell did the Cavs have 41 three point attempts tonight? Do we not play any perimeter defense?

Suns have the worst defense in the NBA. No team gives up a higher FG% than the Suns.

And I think I read somewhere that's it's franchise worst mark so we have never had a worse defensive team in franchise history but I could be wrong on this.

Yeah, thus the reason they got rid of Longabardi (understudy of Thibs). It won't correct itself overnight, especially since the Cavs and all their great 3 pt shooters will make most teams look bad, as will the next two teams, so using those stats as normal league stats is skewed. It seems like you would know this. I can't decide if you know and pretend you don't, or just don't realize these things at all.

Ok your in a pissy mood but I'll take you head on.

What stats am I using that's skewed? I used their stats from the WHOLE DAMN SEASON to say that no team gives up a higher FG% than the Suns. You yourself said firing Longbardi isn't gonna make a huge difference because Bledsoe's out and on top, its not like we have some great defensive talent on the roster to begin with. I never considered firing Longbardi to mean that our defense is gonna improve a ton but I'm guessing you thought I did? Or you did? I'm confused.

You go to great lengths to defend Hornacek man and I get a feeling that you think every post by everyone is about Hornacek. No I'm not blaming Hornacek for the reason we're the worst at opp FG% in the NBA. Hope that helps you sleep better. My beef with Hornacek has never been that he doesn't coach defense, its been his inconsistent rotations and his offensive system that he has in place. I don't blame him for talent or lack there of on the roster.

I surely hope you have a Jeff Hornacek Suns jersey from his playing days. Or at least you certainly deserve one for what you do to defend him on here.

[bwgood77]

Give Quinn Snyder credit, he's done an unbelievable job developing their talent the last couple years.

Quin? Surely you don't think Dan Snyder has much to do with it. Yeah, Dante Exum is a stud. These guys have been world beaters. They are close to 500 after narrowly beating the Sixers.

I think Quin is a good coach. He certainly hasn't done more than Hornacek ever did though. They have gotten better draft picks and he inherited Favors, by far a better player than any Hornacek did. And on top of that, his GM got him Gobert.

Yes Quinn Snyder. And they've played without their best player Gobert for most of the season.

Not sure who said their "world beaters" but ok? Lol. They certainly look like they have a better future than us. Gobert, Hayward and Favors are probably all better than anyone we have and I don't know if its even close. And then of course Lyles, Exum and Hood are probably on the same level as Len, Booker and Warren for us. If Exum develops into the player that many project him to be, then that's another weapon for them. On the GB they have a thread for which young team has the best future and the Suns are not even an option while Utah most certainly is

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1419101#start_here

A shame about Exum's injury...I sure hope your not writing him off based on his rookie season.

Gobert was a good pick and Lindsey has said it on more than one occasion that Gobert was a guy that both Quinn and he wanted and that both were Gobert fans for some time. Much like during the Len pick presser, Hornacek said he was a big part of the Len pick and that he gave his approval for the Len pick and that he loved him as a prospect.

I always liked him before but I really gained ton of respect for Snyder after this

[tweet]https://twitter.com/DJJazzyJody/status/656682838574542848[/tweet]

And bro I know you really, really love Hornacek but you don't gotta defend him in every post man. Hornacek wasn't even mentioned in the posts that you quoted. But ok I'll take the bait,

His personal statistics will likely remain underwhelming all the way through this year, but the Jazz have shown phenomenal patience in allowing their rookies to work through struggles: from Rudy Gobert to Rodney Hood to even Derrick Favors, the Jazz have shown that they’ll stick with their young talent despite sub-par first-year statistics.

http://www.todaysfastbreak.com/nba-west/utah-jazz/cerebral-trey-lyles-will-figure/

Imagine Hornacek ever being willing to do something like that? Hell no and its showed through Len, Goodwin, Warren and until a couple days ago, Booker.

I agree with just about everything you say. They probably have better players and it appears they have a better future than us (credit the GM for getting better players) so that is why they are ahead of us. Of course OKC is better because they have all stars...you might say we should "easily beat OKC" like you did when we played Chicago who was full of current or ex all stars or when you said "decent half, all things considered" when we were down by 6 against Cleveland without our two best players from last year playing journeymen and guys in their first couple of years, along with Brandon Knight who has been far from great and Chandler who is a shell of what he used to be.

Quin is a great coach and they seem to be good, but it appears they have more talent than us, though I do think we have some good young talent from the last two drafts. Len isn't as good as Gobert right now, and Warren and Booker are still very raw as players, but Quin inherited three very good players in the last few years (Hayward, Favors and Gobert) two of who they got while we were still trotting out Nash, Gortat and Scola fooling ourselves that an aging team could go anywhere.

[bwgood77]

Suns have the worst defense in the NBA. No team gives up a higher FG% than the Suns.

And I think I read somewhere that's it's franchise worst mark so we have never had a worse defensive team in franchise history but I could be wrong on this.

Yeah, thus the reason they got rid of Longabardi (understudy of Thibs). It won't correct itself overnight, especially since the Cavs and all their great 3 pt shooters will make most teams look bad, as will the next two teams, so using those stats as normal league stats is skewed. It seems like you would know this. I can't decide if you know and pretend you don't, or just don't realize these things at all.

Ok your in a pissy mood but I'll take you head on.

What stats am I using that's skewed? I used their stats from the WHOLE DAMN SEASON to say that no team gives up a higher FG% than the Suns. You yourself said firing Longbardi isn't gonna make a huge difference because Bledsoe's out and on top, its not like we have some great defensive talent on the roster to begin with. I never considered firing Longbardi to mean that our defense is gonna improve a ton but I'm guessing you thought I did? Or you did? I'm confused.

You go to great lengths to defend Hornacek man and I get a feeling that you think every post by everyone is about Hornacek. No I'm not blaming Hornacek for the reason we're the worst at opp FG% in the NBA. Hope that helps you sleep better. My beef with Hornacek has never been that he doesn't coach defense, its been his inconsistent rotations and his offensive system that he has in place. I don't blame him for talent or lack there of on the roster.

I surely hope you have a Jeff Hornacek Suns jersey from his playing days. Or at least you certainly deserve one for what you do to defend him on here.

I'm not in a pissy mood but see things for what they are. Hornacek wasn't nearly my favorite player when he played. He was a good player but not a great one. My dad complained a little when we traded him for Barkley and I said "you gotta be kidding me, we need a guy like Barkley" but Hornacek has a good head on his shoulders and he has very limited talent, particularly when it comes to bbiq.

Yes, our defense at the perimeter sucks but we have short guys who don't close out well, and Booker and Tucker are terrible defenders. Tucker is decent at staying on his guy on the perimeter and giving him grief (though worse this year) but Bledsoe over gambles, and most of the rest of the team just don't have the talent to guard it. I mentioned tonight because we are still missing our best player and we are playing against a super talented team with a ton of good shooters and playing bad defenders in their first two years a ton of minutes (something I'm happy with).

I know I defend Hornacek but he is a coach in his first job, has made mistakes, but also has overachieved relative to the talent and roster turnover he has had. The past few games (after Milwaukee until Philly) was the only time I really questioned what he was doing, but I really think the team was so deflated (as was Hornacek after blowing the Bucks game and then getting demoralized by GS).

My main point is that you bring in a new coach with this squad in it's current state, and I don't care who it is, they are unlikely to do any better.

He may need to go because perhaps some future players don't respect him (not sure on that) but roster make up is a bigger problem. The roster of the future looks decent but they are so young, we are hardly a team with definite playoff talent. The only reason we might be close is because the 8 seed is fairly open, but as you stated, Utah has more talent, so we shouldn't expect to overcome them, even if we had equal coaching talents.

[JMac1]

If I was development coach.. I would benchmark the current Suns youth and develop them to the closest player.

Len = Valenciounas
Goodwin = Stephenson
Booker = Reddick
Warren = Jamison or Harden (SF non-play making version, just scoring)

That is a pretty low ceiling.

Booker has better handles, size, and athleticism. When was the last time Reddick attack Lebron at the rim, AND FINISHED?!

[thamadkant]

Lebron

If I was development coach.. I would benchmark the current Suns youth and develop them to the closest player.

Len = Valenciounas
Goodwin = Stephenson
Booker = Reddick
Warren = Jamison or Harden (SF non-play making version, just scoring)

That is a pretty low ceiling.

Booker has better handles, size, and athleticism. When was the last time Reddick attack Lebron at the rim, AND FINISHED?!

Until he shows more above the rim finishing ability, strength to get a shot up under duress, I think he will be a "bigger" Reddick, which is a good thing. Also Reddick has nice handles... in Magic and Bucks, he handled the ball every now and then. On the Clippers... they have CP3... so he just plays off the ball.

Defensively, Reddick is actually better than Booker, but Booker is 19, so I expect him to become as good as Reddick defensively.

And Lebron was FLAT today, just flat... and as nice as Booker's layup on Lebron, Lebron played it smart by not getting a foul on that play... and again.. Lebron had a FLAT game today.

[batsmasher]

It's very easy to build a story of a player based on your preconceptions of them. It's much harder to actually watch a basketball game objectively and build your assessment of them once the game is over.

Tyson Chandler made a Jermaine O'Neal-esque mistake tonight. Would have been up 1 or 2 with 30 seconds left. BK had a great first half and reverted to old habits after that.

But at least there's still some fight in this team.

PS I'm on board for trading Bled for a good return. More convinced by the day that he's not got the game nor personality to be a star. The combination of lethargic play at times + inconsistent effort + not being a true PG doesn't work for me. His numbers alone would net us a good return I imagine.

[AtheJ415]

......AND THEY STILL BEAT THE SIXERS!

Give Dan Snyder credit, he's done an unbelievable job developing their talent the last couple years.

Quin? Surely you don't think Dan Snyder has much to do with it. Yeah, Dante Exum is a stud. These guys have been world beaters. They are close to 500 after narrowly beating the Sixers.

I think Quin is a good coach. He certainly hasn't done more than Hornacek ever did though. They have gotten better draft picks and he inherited Favors, by far a better player than any Hornacek did. And on top of that, his GM got him Gobert.

I like Exum. I hope he ends up being a really good player. But he's been pretty disappointing thus far. Another example of getting a top 5 pick not guaranteeing a star.