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AdamTheGreek wrote: Ideally, you want a frontcourt of Aaron and Isaac starting and Vooch being a sixth or seventh man. But no one has dethroned Nik yet.

I agree with this. I think the FO is asking themselves if the Isaac/AG frontcourt can work long term. AG as a small ball 5 is something that the Magic have tried and it has worked. Isaac can switch over to some 5's as well so they can play the matchup.

Thinking that the FO is trying to figure out if this can work or if it makes more sense to try and move AG and get a PG or SF and then add a C in the draft, since there are so many great ones that will be available.

If the Magic keep AG and move Vuc, then they are telling us that they are thinking about the isaac/AG frontcourt. That is my guess. It would then make a lot of sense to start evaluating Young/Doncic and Porter (when he is recovered) and pick one of those 3.

Building around that combo of 3 should make sense on the basketball court.

AdamTheGreek wrote:There is nothing in these 'rumors'. Could someone blow us away with an offer? Of course. But I highly doubt that happens in the next five days.

Aaron is worth the max if someone extends that as an offer sheet. Period.

He's way further along than Tobias or Victor were in their Magic tenures (and Aaron is younger than both were). He's 22. His 3-point shooting has improved a lot (he had a very bad January because of injuries to him and some of his teammates that can space the floor). He's averaging career high shooting percentages in points, assists, rebounds, blocks, FG% within 3 feet, and 3PT%.

AG is averaging 18.4 ppg. The last time a Magic player averaged that much in a season was Vooch's 19.3 ppg in '14-'15.

There is ZERO evidence that Aaron and Isaac can't play together. But guess what? Isaac actually has to get on the floor. And until one of them proves otherwise, Vooch is still the best option to start at center. Ideally, you want a frontcourt of Aaron and Isaac starting and Vooch being a sixth or seventh man. But no one has dethroned Nik yet.

Unless Aaron tells the front office, 'I don't want to be here' or 'ship me to Cali', I don't think we're trading him.

that isnt true. Just because someone is offered a deal doesnt mean they are worth it. If someone offers a max, they are trying to pay more to get him from us, it doesnt mean he is worth a max.

AdamTheGreek wrote:He's way further along than Tobias or Victor were in their Magic tenures (and Aaron is younger than both were).

that isnt true either. Harris had a higher ORTG (112 to 106) and DRTG (107 to 110) his 4th year here than Gordon does this 4th year. Harris had a higher TS (.560 to .547). Now Gordon also has more USG (24.1 to 19.3) than Harris and is taking more shots (15 to 11.7) than Harris did, thus a higher ppg for Gordon. for all the talk about Harris being a black hole, Harris and Gordon's assist rate is the same at 2.2/game. Gordon is comparable in his 4th year with Oladipo his 3rd year.

AdamTheGreek wrote:
Aaron is worth the max if someone extends that as an offer sheet. Period.

There is ZERO evidence that Aaron and Isaac can't play together. But guess what? Isaac actually has to get on the floor. And until one of them proves otherwise, Vooch is still the best option to start at center. Ideally, you want a frontcourt of Aaron and Isaac starting and Vooch being a sixth or seventh man. But no one has dethroned Nik yet.

Unless Aaron tells the front office, 'I don't want to be here' or 'ship me to Cali', I don't think we're trading him.

So you think Wiggins and Otto Porter are worth their max contracts too?

Just because someone is dumb enough to give them one doesn’t mean that’s their true worth.

There also isn’t enough evidence based on Isaac’s less than 300 minutes on the court this season to prove he CAN play next to Gordon as a starting Center. Is Vuc more valuable to the organization coming off the bench? Doubt it.

GatorbaitDD wrote:What about the AG for Wiggins people have thrown around online. I believe Wiggins can still be moved at his 7.5 rate. If we could return another prospect like Tyus Jones and move some filler I'd be in.

What do people see in Wiggins? He literally does nothing well.

Dennis Reynolds wrote:

GatorbaitDD wrote:What about the AG for Wiggins people have thrown around online. I believe Wiggins can still be moved at his 7.5 rate. If we could return another prospect like Tyus Jones and move some filler I'd be in.

What do people see in Wiggins? He literally does nothing well.

Wiggins is this generations Rudy Gay.

PennytoShaq wrote:

AdamTheGreek wrote: Ideally, you want a frontcourt of Aaron and Isaac starting and Vooch being a sixth or seventh man. But no one has dethroned Nik yet.

I agree with this. I think the FO is asking themselves if the Isaac/AG frontcourt can work long term. AG as a small ball 5 is something that the Magic have tried and it has worked. Isaac can switch over to some 5's as well so they can play the matchup.

Thinking that the FO is trying to figure out if this can work or if it makes more sense to try and move AG and get a PG or SF and then add a C in the draft, since there are so many great ones that will be available.

If the Magic keep AG and move Vuc, then they are telling us that they are thinking about the isaac/AG frontcourt. That is my guess. It would then make a lot of sense to start evaluating Young/Doncic and Porter (when he is recovered) and pick one of those 3.

Building around that combo of 3 should make sense on the basketball court.

Agreed

Kings fan here... I want Sac to make a max offer to Gordon this offseason (think he'd fit in really nicely with our guys) what from our roster would it take to get Gordon? Do you guys think we could get a deal done without including Fox, WCS, or our pick? My idea was flipping George Hill for a pick and combining that with some combination of Hield, Skal, Mason, and Richardson. Or is that just wishful thinking on my part?

bleeds_purple wrote:Kings fan here... I want Sac to make a max offer to Gordon this offseason (think he'd fit in really nicely with our guys) what from our roster would it take to get Gordon? Do you guys think we could get a deal done without including Fox, WCS, or our pick? My idea was flipping George Hill for a pick and combining that with some combination of Hield, Skal, Mason, and Richardson. Or is that just wishful thinking on my part?

Not happening.

bleeds_purple wrote:Kings fan here... I want Sac to make a max offer to Gordon this offseason (think he'd fit in really nicely with our guys) what from our roster would it take to get Gordon? Do you guys think we could get a deal done without including Fox, WCS, or our pick? My idea was flipping George Hill for a pick and combining that with some combination of Hield, Skal, Mason, and Richardson. Or is that just wishful thinking on my part?

To be honest I don't think I'd trade AG for anyone on your roster... your pick is the only thing that'd excite me moving forward. I would rather just roll the dice on AG... we've suffered through the last 4 years for the sake of AG's development and it would annoy me to no end if he went on to break out on another team.

MagicMatic wrote:

bleeds_purple wrote:Kings fan here... I want Sac to make a max offer to Gordon this offseason (think he'd fit in really nicely with our guys) what from our roster would it take to get Gordon? Do you guys think we could get a deal done without including Fox, WCS, or our pick? My idea was flipping George Hill for a pick and combining that with some combination of Hield, Skal, Mason, and Richardson. Or is that just wishful thinking on my part?

Not happening.

Ya, no thanks.

MagicMatic wrote:

AdamTheGreek wrote:
Aaron is worth the max if someone extends that as an offer sheet. Period.

There is ZERO evidence that Aaron and Isaac can't play together. But guess what? Isaac actually has to get on the floor. And until one of them proves otherwise, Vooch is still the best option to start at center. Ideally, you want a frontcourt of Aaron and Isaac starting and Vooch being a sixth or seventh man. But no one has dethroned Nik yet.

Unless Aaron tells the front office, 'I don't want to be here' or 'ship me to Cali', I don't think we're trading him.

So you think Wiggins and Otto Porter are worth their max contracts too?

Just because someone is dumb enough to give them one doesn’t mean that’s their true worth.

There also isn’t enough evidence based on Isaac’s less than 300 minutes on the court this season to prove he CAN play next to Gordon as a starting Center. Is Vuc more valuable to the organization coming off the bench? Doubt it.

The market dictated those prices, so yes. In Porter's case he does a lot of things for the Wizards that don't appear on a box score that they knew made him worth his price tag.
And Wiggins is only 22 years old. You still can't make any conclusions on him.

And I didn't say Isaac should play center or Gordon should play center. I said start them in the frontcourt together. The 'center' or 'PF' designation doesn't matter. They swap center defending duties for all I care. If they work well together as a starting duo, then play them.
What we do know about AG is that he can't play SF. It caps his impact on both ends.
Could Isaac become an SF and AG play PF with either Vucevic starting at C still or us drafting a young stud at C? Maybe. But Isaac's rim protection is on par with Birch's already and puts Biyombo's to shame. So Isaac's value for this franchise right now is as a 'big man' defensively with the intended ability to offensively spread the floor on the perimeter.

Hindsight is 20/20, but timing **** us in 2016 (and a few other teams like Portland, except they at least have some studs and a nice culture, but they've stagnated and they monetarily have limitations when it comes to their championship chasing aspirations). We had all of that cap room in the wrong year, and any patience Hennigan might have had with that cap space went out the window because he had to find a way to win now (ownership, Martins, fan pressure all contributed to this).

AdamTheGreek wrote:

MagicMatic wrote:

AdamTheGreek wrote:
Aaron is worth the max if someone extends that as an offer sheet. Period.

There is ZERO evidence that Aaron and Isaac can't play together. But guess what? Isaac actually has to get on the floor. And until one of them proves otherwise, Vooch is still the best option to start at center. Ideally, you want a frontcourt of Aaron and Isaac starting and Vooch being a sixth or seventh man. But no one has dethroned Nik yet.

Unless Aaron tells the front office, 'I don't want to be here' or 'ship me to Cali', I don't think we're trading him.

So you think Wiggins and Otto Porter are worth their max contracts too?

Just because someone is dumb enough to give them one doesn’t mean that’s their true worth.

There also isn’t enough evidence based on Isaac’s less than 300 minutes on the court this season to prove he CAN play next to Gordon as a starting Center. Is Vuc more valuable to the organization coming off the bench? Doubt it.

The market dictated those prices, so yes. In Porter's case he does a lot of things for the Wizards that don't appear on a box score that they knew made him worth his price tag.
And Wiggins is only 22 years old. You still can't make any conclusions on him.

And I didn't say Isaac should play center or Gordon should play center. I said start them in the frontcourt together. The 'center' or 'PF' designation doesn't matter. They swap center defending duties for all I care. If they work well together as a starting duo, then play them.
What we do know about AG is that he can't play SF. It caps his impact on both ends.
Could Isaac become an SF and AG play PF with either Vucevic starting at C still or us drafting a young stud at C? Maybe. But Isaac's rim protection is on par with Birch's already and puts Biyombo's to shame. So Isaac's value for this franchise right now is as a 'big man' defensively with the intended ability to offensively spread the floor on the perimeter.

Hindsight is 20/20, but timing **** us in 2016 (and a few other teams like Portland, except they at least have some studs and a nice culture, but they've stagnated and they monetarily have limitations when it comes to their championship chasing aspirations). We had all of that cap room in the wrong year, and any patience Hennigan might have had with that cap space went out the window because he had to find a way to win now (ownership, Martins, fan pressure all contributed to this).

I don’t buy the “market dictated” line because of sh** like Noah, Biyombo, and Mozgov contracts materializing.
Small market teams, like Orlando and Minnesota, will be cornered into handing above average players max and overpriced contracts. This will undoubtedly hamper any chance of acquiring players outside of the draft.

That being said, if we can’t find an actual deal for AG to blow up the roster - he should be resigned because losing an asset isn’t acceptable. I’m not going to act like he deserves it though, he just happens to play for Orlando and is the best player on the worst team.

AdamTheGreek wrote:

MagicMatic wrote:

AdamTheGreek wrote:
Aaron is worth the max if someone extends that as an offer sheet. Period.

There is ZERO evidence that Aaron and Isaac can't play together. But guess what? Isaac actually has to get on the floor. And until one of them proves otherwise, Vooch is still the best option to start at center. Ideally, you want a frontcourt of Aaron and Isaac starting and Vooch being a sixth or seventh man. But no one has dethroned Nik yet.

Unless Aaron tells the front office, 'I don't want to be here' or 'ship me to Cali', I don't think we're trading him.

So you think Wiggins and Otto Porter are worth their max contracts too?

Just because someone is dumb enough to give them one doesn’t mean that’s their true worth.

There also isn’t enough evidence based on Isaac’s less than 300 minutes on the court this season to prove he CAN play next to Gordon as a starting Center. Is Vuc more valuable to the organization coming off the bench? Doubt it.

The market dictated those prices, so yes. In Porter's case he does a lot of things for the Wizards that don't appear on a box score that they knew made him worth his price tag.
And Wiggins is only 22 years old. You still can't make any conclusions on him.

And I didn't say Isaac should play center or Gordon should play center. I said start them in the frontcourt together. The 'center' or 'PF' designation doesn't matter. They swap center defending duties for all I care. If they work well together as a starting duo, then play them.
What we do know about AG is that he can't play SF. It caps his impact on both ends.
Could Isaac become an SF and AG play PF with either Vucevic starting at C still or us drafting a young stud at C? Maybe. But Isaac's rim protection is on par with Birch's already and puts Biyombo's to shame. So Isaac's value for this franchise right now is as a 'big man' defensively with the intended ability to offensively spread the floor on the perimeter.

Hindsight is 20/20, but timing **** us in 2016 (and a few other teams like Portland, except they at least have some studs and a nice culture, but they've stagnated and they monetarily have limitations when it comes to their championship chasing aspirations). We had all of that cap room in the wrong year, and any patience Hennigan might have had with that cap space went out the window because he had to find a way to win now (ownership, Martins, fan pressure all contributed to this).

Porter is doing exactly what the Wizards paid him to do. For their team, it makes sense. Well it did until they started breaking down here of late. If we still have AG this offseason, we need to sign him, if at least to not waste the past four years of development we have spent on him. If an offer rears up that makes sense (in which we are the CLEAR winners) then I'm okay with it. But I think this AG trade rumor is us gaging the market so that we know what we are getting into this offseason.

AdamTheGreek wrote:
The market dictated those prices, so yes. In Porter's case he does a lot of things for the Wizards that don't appear on a box score that they knew made him worth his price tag.
And Wiggins is only 22 years old. You still can't make any conclusions on him.

"Market Value" is semantics. A bad team can max out a bench warmer and claim he provides intangibles that don't show up on the stat sheet (like leadership). Tangible and view-able measurements like stats and floor impact (eye-test) dictate whether if a player is max quality.

I agree youth does muddy the waters. But you do somewhat have glimpses of a players potential throughout his tenure to justify a contract. This is why Gordon being explored on the market shows managements confidence in his potential is fleeting. You barely see guys with assumed potential being thrown on the marketplace like this in back to back years if the organization thought otherwise. I mean the Suns, Timberwolves, and Knicks all refused to trade their young guys during that that span of time (Booker, Wiggins, and Porzingis)

OrlandO wrote:

bleeds_purple wrote:Kings fan here... I want Sac to make a max offer to Gordon this offseason (think he'd fit in really nicely with our guys) what from our roster would it take to get Gordon? Do you guys think we could get a deal done without including Fox, WCS, or our pick? My idea was flipping George Hill for a pick and combining that with some combination of Hield, Skal, Mason, and Richardson. Or is that just wishful thinking on my part?

To be honest I don't think I'd trade AG for anyone on your roster... your pick is the only thing that'd excite me moving forward. I would rather just roll the dice on AG... we've suffered through the last 4 years for the sake of AG's development and it would annoy me to no end if he went on to break out on another team.

Fair enough. I kind of expected these types of responses. FWIW, I wouldn't trade Fox, Bogdan, or WCS for Gordon. Not that I necessarily think any of those guys are currently or will be better than him (too soon to tell how you could rank these guys in the long run) just that, if we did move any of those guys for Gordon, it would just end up being more of a lateral move talent/potential wise. We'd be in the same position we are in now just with less continuity and a bigger contract to pay (rookie deal v. close to or at a max deal) with less years guaranteed on the player. Just wouldn't make sense.

The pick I would never move for Gordon unless it was something like top 8 protected. To me Gordon is going to be a solid 3rd or 4th guy. Hopefully one of those glue guy types. I wouldn't trade what could wind up being the number one overall pick for that.

JF5 wrote:

AdamTheGreek wrote:
The market dictated those prices, so yes. In Porter's case he does a lot of things for the Wizards that don't appear on a box score that they knew made him worth his price tag.
And Wiggins is only 22 years old. You still can't make any conclusions on him.

"Market Value" is semantics. A bad team can max out a bench warmer and claim he provides intangibles that don't show up on the stat sheet (like leadership). Tangible and view-able measurements like stats and floor impact (eye-test) dictate whether if a player is max quality.

I agree youth does muddy the waters. But you do somewhat have glimpses of a players potential throughout his tenure to justify a contract. This is why Gordon being explored on the market shows managements confidence in his potential is fleeting. You barely see guys with assumed potential being thrown on the marketplace like this in back to back years if the organization thought otherwise. I mean the Suns, Timberwolves, and Knicks all refused to trade their young guys during that that span of time (Booker, Wiggins, and Porzingis)

There was an entire weekend when NY was on suicide watch because the Knicks were going to trade Porzingis.

Def Swami wrote:

JF5 wrote:

AdamTheGreek wrote:
The market dictated those prices, so yes. In Porter's case he does a lot of things for the Wizards that don't appear on a box score that they knew made him worth his price tag.
And Wiggins is only 22 years old. You still can't make any conclusions on him.

"Market Value" is semantics. A bad team can max out a bench warmer and claim he provides intangibles that don't show up on the stat sheet (like leadership). Tangible and view-able measurements like stats and floor impact (eye-test) dictate whether if a player is max quality.

I agree youth does muddy the waters. But you do somewhat have glimpses of a players potential throughout his tenure to justify a contract. This is why Gordon being explored on the market shows managements confidence in his potential is fleeting. You barely see guys with assumed potential being thrown on the marketplace like this in back to back years if the organization thought otherwise. I mean the Suns, Timberwolves, and Knicks all refused to trade their young guys during that that span of time (Booker, Wiggins, and Porzingis)

There was an entire weekend when NY was on suicide watch because the Knicks were going to trade Porzingis.

And that was same weekend when they fired Jackson.

JF5 wrote:

AdamTheGreek wrote:
The market dictated those prices, so yes. In Porter's case he does a lot of things for the Wizards that don't appear on a box score that they knew made him worth his price tag.
And Wiggins is only 22 years old. You still can't make any conclusions on him.

This is why Gordon being explored on the market shows managements confidence in his potential is fleeting. You barely see guys with assumed potential being thrown on the marketplace like this in back to back years if the organization thought otherwise.

I think assuming anything based on this "rumor" is a reach. Obviously anyone can be traded but shouldn't people wait for a more verifiable source before assuming management's opinion of Gordon? I mean if you included rumors from guys who don't typically break news, I'm sure you could find something suggesting a team gauging value on Wiggins, Porzingis, or Booker.

Gauging value =/= throwing guys on the marketplace I guess is what I'm saying.

honestly what up with the title of this thread? gordon is on the block? that genius guy sprinkling his wisdom again, could we gauge the market value on him?

Def Swami wrote:

JF5 wrote:

AdamTheGreek wrote:
The market dictated those prices, so yes. In Porter's case he does a lot of things for the Wizards that don't appear on a box score that they knew made him worth his price tag.
And Wiggins is only 22 years old. You still can't make any conclusions on him.

"Market Value" is semantics. A bad team can max out a bench warmer and claim he provides intangibles that don't show up on the stat sheet (like leadership). Tangible and view-able measurements like stats and floor impact (eye-test) dictate whether if a player is max quality.

I agree youth does muddy the waters. But you do somewhat have glimpses of a players potential throughout his tenure to justify a contract. This is why Gordon being explored on the market shows managements confidence in his potential is fleeting. You barely see guys with assumed potential being thrown on the marketplace like this in back to back years if the organization thought otherwise. I mean the Suns, Timberwolves, and Knicks all refused to trade their young guys during that that span of time (Booker, Wiggins, and Porzingis)

There was an entire weekend when NY was on suicide watch because the Knicks were going to trade Porzingis.

They fired Phil Jackson for attempting to trade him. From the fans to the Ownership of the Knicks were completely against the move which was lunacy from the beginning.