2018-19 Player of the Year Discussion Thread

[HeartBreakKid]

Luka is still really good for a rookie, but he's not that much better than an average starting caliber player if we take away his rookie status and age.

So, if you ignore how impressive it is for someone his age to be carrying that kind of load and that kind of production, he's only an above average starter.

... I'm not sure how this is supposed to be an argument AGAINST Luka Doncic.

If people in this section are arguing that Luka is a TOP 20 player, then being just "an average" starter would be an argument against him.


And yes, Mitchell Robinson could absolutely play 5 more minutes per game, and he would probably be more productive than Luka despite the minute gap. Most of the Knicks starters are way worse than him, albeit DeAndre Jordan obviously is not who occupies his position.

Mitchell Robinson playing 20-25 minutes whether he plays off the bench or not would be a great addition on any quality team. I also don't get why people think so highly of David Fizdale?

[E-Balla]

Luka is still really good for a rookie, but he's not that much better than an average starting caliber player if we take away his rookie status and age.

So, if you ignore how impressive it is for someone his age to be carrying that kind of load and that kind of production, he's only an above average starter.

... I'm not sure how this is supposed to be an argument AGAINST Luka Doncic.

If people in this section are arguing that Luka is a TOP 20 player, then being just "an average" starter would be an argument against him.


And yes, Mitchell Robinson could absolutely play 5 more minutes per game, and he would probably be more productive than Luka despite the minute gap. Most of the Knicks starters are way worse than him, albeit DeAndre Jordan obviously is not who occupies his position.

Mitchell Robinson playing 20-25 minutes whether he plays off the bench or not would be a great addition on any quality team. I also don't get why people think so highly of David Fizdale?

Yeah you don't watch many Knicks games do you? When you're averaging over 3 fouls a game in under 18 minutes for half a season it turns out that'll kill your ability to hit the floor. Once he cut down the fouling, the minutes came.

[Colbinii]

MVP
1.Giannis
2. Harden
3. Jokic
4. George
5. Lillard

DPOY
1. Gobert
2. Turner
3. Brook Lopez
4. Giannis
5. Draymond Green

6MOY
1.Montrezl Harrell
2. Monte Morris
3. Lou Williams
4. Domantas Sabonis

MIP
1. Nikola Vucevic
2. Myles Turner
3. Jusuf Nurkic
4. Brook Lopez
5. D'Angelo Russell

ROY
1A. Trae Young
1B. Luka Doncic
3. Mitchell Robinson
4. DeAndre Ayton
5. Mikal Bridges

All-NBA 1st
G: James Harden
G: Steph Curry
F: Paul George
F: Giannis
C: Nikola Jokic

All-NBA 2nd
G: Damian Lillard
G: Jrue Holiday
F: Kevin Durant
F: Blake Griffin
C: Rudy Gobert

All-NBA 3rd
G: Kemba Walker
G: Bradley Beal
F: Pascal Siakam
F: Karl-Anthony Towns
C: Joel Embiid

All-Defense 1st
G: Marcus Smart
G: Danny Green
F: Paul George
F: Giannis
C: Rudy Gobert

All-Defense 2nd
G: Chris Paul
G: Jrue Holiday
F: Paul Millsap
F: Draymond Green
C: Myles Turner

All-Rookie 1st
G: Trae Young
G: SGA
F: Luka Doncic
F: Mikal Bridges
C: Mitchell Robinson

All-Rookie 2nd
G: Sexton
G: Shamet
F: JJJ
F: Marvin Bagley
C: DeAndre Ayton

[HeartBreakKid]

So, if you ignore how impressive it is for someone his age to be carrying that kind of load and that kind of production, he's only an above average starter.

... I'm not sure how this is supposed to be an argument AGAINST Luka Doncic.

If people in this section are arguing that Luka is a TOP 20 player, then being just "an average" starter would be an argument against him.


And yes, Mitchell Robinson could absolutely play 5 more minutes per game, and he would probably be more productive than Luka despite the minute gap. Most of the Knicks starters are way worse than him, albeit DeAndre Jordan obviously is not who occupies his position.

Mitchell Robinson playing 20-25 minutes whether he plays off the bench or not would be a great addition on any quality team. I also don't get why people think so highly of David Fizdale?

Yeah you don't watch many Knicks games do you? When you're averaging over 3 fouls a game in under 18 minutes for half a season it turns out that'll kill your ability to hit the floor. Once he cut down the fouling, the minutes came.

If Mitchell Robinson is one of my favorite players in the league and he is on the Knicks why wouldn't I watch a lot of Knicks games?

Also, you do know that you made a point about the eye test but what you said isn't related to the eye test - you literally could look up how many fouls someone gets.

I mean I said what you said in my very first post about Mitchell Robinson in regards to his fouls.

[GSP]

MIP
1. Nikola Vucevic
2. Myles Turner
3. Jusuf Nurkic
4. Brook Lopez
5. D'Angelo Russell

No Siakam or Fox in top 5? Im guessing u are excluding 2nd and 3rd year players?

whats the rationale for Brook? I think 2013 is still generally considered his peak and he was really good that year. This is his best defensive season tho

[HeartBreakKid]

What about Marcus Smart for MIP ballot?

He went from an awful shooter to a very efficient one. He is shooting at something like 57 TS%, 36% from 3s. Considering he is an all defense caliber guard and he has legitimate playmaking skills, his ability to not only fix his broken shooting but his shot selection overall should massively boost his effectiveness even if his numbers look the same.

MIP
1. Nikola Vucevic
2. Myles Turner
3. Jusuf Nurkic
4. Brook Lopez
5. D'Angelo Russell

No Siakam or Fox in top 5? Im guessing u are excluding 2nd and 3rd year players?

whats the rationale for Brook? I think 2013 is still generally considered his peak and he was really good that year. This is his best defensive season tho

MIP is relative to what a player did last year not their peak year.

[Colbinii]

MIP
1. Nikola Vucevic
2. Myles Turner
3. Jusuf Nurkic
4. Brook Lopez
5. D'Angelo Russell

No Siakam or Fox in top 5? Im guessing u are excluding 2nd and 3rd year players?

whats the rationale for Brook? I think 2013 is still generally considered his peak and he was really good that year. This is his best defensive season tho

MIP is relative year to year.

I do not include 2nd year players and it is difficult for me to separate Siakam with the rest of the core.

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[truly]

DPOY
1. Gobert
2. Turner
3. Brook Lopez
4. Giannis
5. Draymond Green

You actually think Brook Lopez is the 3rd best defender in the league?

//You also have Blake listed twice on your All NBA teams.

[Dr Spaceman]

DPOY
1. Gobert
2. Turner
3. Brook Lopez
4. Giannis
5. Draymond Green

You actually think Brook Lopez is the 3rd best defender in the league?

//You also have Blake listed twice on your All NBA teams.

He is the #1 player in the league in terms of how he effects team DRB% and is one of the very best rim defenders in the league. The Bucks rank #1 in both categories.

Lopez is ranked #7 overall in defensive PIPM and is essentially tied with Giannis in both RPM and PIPM. There is a good argument he is the best defender on the best defensive team in the league.

[truly]

DPOY
1. Gobert
2. Turner
3. Brook Lopez
4. Giannis
5. Draymond Green

You actually think Brook Lopez is the 3rd best defender in the league?

//You also have Blake listed twice on your All NBA teams.

He is the #1 player in the league in terms of how he effects team DRB% and is one of the very best rim defenders in the league. The Bucks rank #1 in both categories.

Lopez is ranked #7 overall in defensive PIPM and is essentially tied with Giannis in both RPM and PIPM. There is a good argument he is the best defender on the best defensive team in the league.

Lopez is elite at challenging shots at the rim and boxing out.But the Bucks scheme around his slow legs.He is basically told to drop back in the paint every time and wait to challenge players there.
His numbers are so good because the Bucks don't ask him to do what he can't.They put him in a position to succeed and he excels at it.
But that doesn't mean he is the 3rd best defender in the league.

[Dr Spaceman]

You actually think Brook Lopez is the 3rd best defender in the league?

//You also have Blake listed twice on your All NBA teams.

He is the #1 player in the league in terms of how he effects team DRB% and is one of the very best rim defenders in the league. The Bucks rank #1 in both categories.

Lopez is ranked #7 overall in defensive PIPM and is essentially tied with Giannis in both RPM and PIPM. There is a good argument he is the best defender on the best defensive team in the league.

Lopez is elite at challenging shots at the rim and boxing out.But the Bucks scheme around his slow legs.He is basically told to drop back in the paint every time and wait to challenge players there.
His numbers are so good because the Bucks don't ask him to do what he can't.They put him in a position to succeed and he excels at it.
But that doesn't mean he is the 3rd best defender in the league.

Eh to me this is the equivalent of saying “Reggie Miller couldn’t really run a pick and roll or distribute so he can’t be a top offensive player in the league”. Actually he can because it turns out the strengths he has are so overwhelming.

Every player has weaknesses and strengths and every team’s system is designed to maximize strengths and minimize weaknesses. Lopez is the one actually out there challenging shots and boxing out, not the coaches.

And finally basketball didn’t stop being basketball in the last few years. Guys who protect the rim are still valuable defenders. I don’t know where people get this idea that not coming out on the floor jsut leads your team to bleed points. Gobert can’t do it and yet the Jazz are still amazing.

[truly]

He is the #1 player in the league in terms of how he effects team DRB% and is one of the very best rim defenders in the league. The Bucks rank #1 in both categories.

Lopez is ranked #7 overall in defensive PIPM and is essentially tied with Giannis in both RPM and PIPM. There is a good argument he is the best defender on the best defensive team in the league.

Lopez is elite at challenging shots at the rim and boxing out.But the Bucks scheme around his slow legs.He is basically told to drop back in the paint every time and wait to challenge players there.
His numbers are so good because the Bucks don't ask him to do what he can't.They put him in a position to succeed and he excels at it.
But that doesn't mean he is the 3rd best defender in the league.

Eh to me this is the equivalent of saying “Reggie Miller couldn’t really run a pick and roll or distribute so he can’t be a top offensive player in the league”. Actually he can because it turns out the strengths he has are so overwhelming.

Every player has weaknesses and strengths and every team’s system is designed to maximize strengths and minimize weaknesses. Lopez is the one actually out there challenging shots and boxing out, not the coaches.

And finally basketball didn’t stop being basketball in the last few years. Guys who protect the rim are still valuable defenders. I don’t know where people get this idea that not coming out on the floor jsut leads your team to bleed points. Gobert can’t do it and yet the Jazz are still amazing.

No that would be like saying Lopez is a top defensive center in the league.He said he is the 3rd best defender overall.That is different.I am not disputing that Lopez has had a great season defensively.I am disputing the ranking.

[Colbinii]

double

[Colbinii]

Lopez is elite at challenging shots at the rim and boxing out.But the Bucks scheme around his slow legs.He is basically told to drop back in the paint every time and wait to challenge players there.
His numbers are so good because the Bucks don't ask him to do what he can't.They put him in a position to succeed and he excels at it.
But that doesn't mean he is the 3rd best defender in the league.

Eh to me this is the equivalent of saying “Reggie Miller couldn’t really run a pick and roll or distribute so he can’t be a top offensive player in the league”. Actually he can because it turns out the strengths he has are so overwhelming.

Every player has weaknesses and strengths and every team’s system is designed to maximize strengths and minimize weaknesses. Lopez is the one actually out there challenging shots and boxing out, not the coaches.

And finally basketball didn’t stop being basketball in the last few years. Guys who protect the rim are still valuable defenders. I don’t know where people get this idea that not coming out on the floor jsut leads your team to bleed points. Gobert can’t do it and yet the Jazz are still amazing.

No that would be like saying Lopez is a top defensive center in the league.He said he is the 3rd best defender overall.That is different.I am not disputing that Lopez has had a great season defensively.I am disputing the ranking.

Who do you rank higher?

Who do you see no argument for?

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[Dr Spaceman]

Lopez is elite at challenging shots at the rim and boxing out.But the Bucks scheme around his slow legs.He is basically told to drop back in the paint every time and wait to challenge players there.
His numbers are so good because the Bucks don't ask him to do what he can't.They put him in a position to succeed and he excels at it.
But that doesn't mean he is the 3rd best defender in the league.

Eh to me this is the equivalent of saying “Reggie Miller couldn’t really run a pick and roll or distribute so he can’t be a top offensive player in the league”. Actually he can because it turns out the strengths he has are so overwhelming.

Every player has weaknesses and strengths and every team’s system is designed to maximize strengths and minimize weaknesses. Lopez is the one actually out there challenging shots and boxing out, not the coaches.

And finally basketball didn’t stop being basketball in the last few years. Guys who protect the rim are still valuable defenders. I don’t know where people get this idea that not coming out on the floor jsut leads your team to bleed points. Gobert can’t do it and yet the Jazz are still amazing.

No that would be like saying Lopez is a top defensive center in the league.He said he is the 3rd best defender overall.That is different.I am not disputing that Lopez has had a great season defensively.I am disputing the ranking.

Reggie had seasons where he could be ranked that high offensively. Hell in 95 you could argue he was a top 1 offensive player. 25.5 playoff points per game on +9 rTS is literally Steph Curry-level scoring production.

You haven’t made a case for why Brook’s limitations don’t allow him to be this good defensively, you just said “he has these limitations so he’s not that good”. He excels in the areas that are most important for a defense throughout the whole history of the game.

[E-Balla]

If people in this section are arguing that Luka is a TOP 20 player, then being just "an average" starter would be an argument against him.


And yes, Mitchell Robinson could absolutely play 5 more minutes per game, and he would probably be more productive than Luka despite the minute gap. Most of the Knicks starters are way worse than him, albeit DeAndre Jordan obviously is not who occupies his position.

Mitchell Robinson playing 20-25 minutes whether he plays off the bench or not would be a great addition on any quality team. I also don't get why people think so highly of David Fizdale?

Yeah you don't watch many Knicks games do you? When you're averaging over 3 fouls a game in under 18 minutes for half a season it turns out that'll kill your ability to hit the floor. Once he cut down the fouling, the minutes came.

If Mitchell Robinson is one of my favorite players in the league and he is on the Knicks why wouldn't I watch a lot of Knicks games?

Also, you do know that you made a point about the eye test but what you said isn't related to the eye test - you literally could look up how many fouls someone gets.

I mean I said what you said in my very first post about Mitchell Robinson in regards to his fouls.

But do you not see how fouling like that hurts your ability to get on the floor and your team? Or do you really think Mitch is so much better than Luka per minute that he makes up for Luka playing nearly twice as many minutes as him? Is he twice as good as Luka (or twice as far from replacement level to be more exact)?

[E-Balla]

Eh to me this is the equivalent of saying “Reggie Miller couldn’t really run a pick and roll or distribute so he can’t be a top offensive player in the league”. Actually he can because it turns out the strengths he has are so overwhelming.

Every player has weaknesses and strengths and every team’s system is designed to maximize strengths and minimize weaknesses. Lopez is the one actually out there challenging shots and boxing out, not the coaches.

And finally basketball didn’t stop being basketball in the last few years. Guys who protect the rim are still valuable defenders. I don’t know where people get this idea that not coming out on the floor jsut leads your team to bleed points. Gobert can’t do it and yet the Jazz are still amazing.

No that would be like saying Lopez is a top defensive center in the league.He said he is the 3rd best defender overall.That is different.I am not disputing that Lopez has had a great season defensively.I am disputing the ranking.

Reggie had seasons where he could be ranked that high offensively. Hell in 95 you could argue he was a top 1 offensive player. 25.5 playoff points per game on +9 rTS is literally Steph Curry-level scoring production.

You haven’t made a case for why Brook’s limitations don’t allow him to be this good defensively, you just said “he has these limitations so he’s not that good”. He excels in the areas that are most important for a defense throughout the whole history of the game.

I think the gap here is that his point is that Giannis covers for Brook allowing him to impact the game as much as he does. So while Brook excels at rebounding and defending the rim, he's well below average in other areas but Giannis is so dominant horizontally and vertically they can cover for it. If Brook is killed on a PNR, Giannis is one of the top 10 rim defenders in the league and one of the top 5 help defenders so when looking at overall impact what you're seeing when you see Brook is a player with all his negatives negated and all his positives still positives. Let's say on an average team Brook would save them 6 baskets a game but give up 4 for an overall +2 basket impact, on the Bucks he's saving them 6 baskets a game while giving up only 1 because Giannis and the rest of the team can save those other 3 Brook would normally give up.

Personally I think with the low minutes of the other top defenders he could sneak into the top 5 for voting but he's clearly under Giannis, PG, Gobert, and Turner IMO. Maybe he tops Siakam.

[bondom34]

Giannis/Brook: 99.9 DRtg

Giannis/no Brook: 96.1

Brook no Giannis 101.1

So why's Brook the better defender? This seems like a weird one to argue against Giannis.

[Dr Spaceman]

No that would be like saying Lopez is a top defensive center in the league.He said he is the 3rd best defender overall.That is different.I am not disputing that Lopez has had a great season defensively.I am disputing the ranking.

Reggie had seasons where he could be ranked that high offensively. Hell in 95 you could argue he was a top 1 offensive player. 25.5 playoff points per game on +9 rTS is literally Steph Curry-level scoring production.

You haven’t made a case for why Brook’s limitations don’t allow him to be this good defensively, you just said “he has these limitations so he’s not that good”. He excels in the areas that are most important for a defense throughout the whole history of the game.

I think the gap here is that his point is that Giannis covers for Brook allowing him to impact the game as much as he does. So while Brook excels at rebounding and defending the rim, he's well below average in other areas but Giannis is so dominant horizontally and vertically they can cover for it. If Brook is killed on a PNR, Giannis is one of the top 10 rim defenders in the league and one of the top 5 help defenders so when looking at overall impact what you're seeing when you see Brook is a player with all his negatives negated and all his positives still positives. Let's say on an average team Brook would save them 6 baskets a game but give up 4 for an overall +2 basket impact, on the Bucks he's saving them 6 baskets a game while giving up only 1 because Giannis and the rest of the team can save those other 3 Brook would normally give up.

Personally I think with the low minutes of the other top defenders he could sneak into the top 5 for voting but he's clearly under Giannis, PG, Gobert, and Turner IMO. Maybe he tops Siakam.

Does Giannis also not get enabled by having Brook out there? With a back line defender of Lopz’s Caliber you can be much more aggressive in help and press tighter on shooters and especially work the passing lanes more which is exactly what Giannis has done this year. With more backline responsibility Giannis probably doesn’t have the season he’s having either. They’re very synergistic in that way.

And it’s not like Giannis doesn’t have weaknesses covered by the scheme. He can’t get over a screen but the Bucks have 3 excellent point of attack defenders in Bledsoe, Middleton and Brogdon so Giannis gets to cover the worst perimeter player and play free safety helping off that guy.

[Dr Spaceman]

Giannis/Brook: 99.9 DRtg

Giannis/no Brook: 96.1

Brook no Giannis 101.1

So why's Brook the better defender? This seems like a weird one to argue against Giannis.

Because this isn’t a strong enough argument by itself? All sorts of things could be causing these numbers that ave nothing to do with the quality of players involved themselves. There have been strong arguments posited in Lopez’ favor and this doesn’t do anything to refute them other than be a useful data point to consider.