"That one right there made me the GOAT" - LeBron

[mademan]

and in a historically weak conference after he essentially guaranteed himself a finals birth every year by joining the other best players in the conference TWICE.

Weak conference is only an argument if he didn't advance out of it every single year. How do people still not get this most basic of logic? Especially since he was drafted into that conference and made his FA decisions for reasons other than conference which again everyone understands.

You simply can't logically blame him for a weak conference that he has no control over and since he advanced literally every year.....

Man the efforts people go to discredit players they don't like... smh I don't like Lebron either but credit needs to be given.

well, when everyone tries to paint LeBron as a huge underdog all these years, aka "played against historically super stacked teams in the finals"...it's only right to point out that he also played in a historically weak conference after he stacked the deck in his favor twice.

Weak? OK, i disagree, but you can make a legit argument.

Historically weak though? Thats a stretch. The Heat were taken to 7 games twice in the years they won a title. The Cavs had better luck during the LBJ/Kyrie era over those 3 years, though they were pretty heavily injured in 1 of them. Besides that 2015 year and 2018 (without Kyrie) they had 2 cake walks. It's not like thats some crazy, never happened before chit either. I mean the Warriors themselves have had 2 cake walks over the past 4 finals runs.

[OdomFan]

The 73-9 Warriors are definitely Overrated as hell. Great talented team, but all this stuff of how anyone who leads their team over that team is suddenly greatest than every other elite talent who accomplished more against more great squads is just ridiculous.

2011 matters as others have said, so does the 2014 series against the Spurs, and so does 2007 when Bron only made it because the Pistons were no longer had their full line up due to Ben leaving for the Bulls.

I can not wait for this clown Lebron to retire.

[JustOneFix]

Kids really need to realise that MJ basically gave away 2 titles to the rest of the league because he was bored, or in debt, or whatnot. Had he wanted to, they guy would easily have 8 titles. Eight. Which, for Lebron James, is science fiction.

[mademan]

That's because those who saw both should be able to tell thru the "eye" test. I am over 50, and saw both play since day one. MJ had a fire to him to be the best, whereas LBJ had a fire to him to be the best teammate. With the game on the line MJ would never EVER rely on his teammates to win the game. If he was going to take the blame, he was going to earn the blame. Another thing is, MJ took his teammates and taught them how to win, LBJ needed help from Wade. Nothing to be ashamed of, just the facts.

so those game winning shots from Kerr, Paxson, Wennington etc never happened lol.

The myth of Mike is clearly the GOAT. The actual basketball player might be, but probably isn't.

Wennington? LOL, the only game winner he ever had was a wide open dunk on an assist from MJ in the game that he dropped 55 at MSG against a contending Knicks team, 5 games into his comeback at 32 years of age.

Are facts like that also a part of this "myth"? The only thing more annoying than fanboys are the devil's advocate NBA hipsters who try like hell to "deconstruct the myth" of Jordan when anyone with eyes knows that the guy was a deserved legend.

Take yourself back 6 months ago and see the number of people criticizing Lebron for setting up Hill for an easy game winning layup in game 1 (which resulted in 2 FT's for a +80% free throw shooter).

And that wasnt even Texas Chuck's point. The idea was that even the great Jordan passed it to an open teammate in clutch time.

[clyde21]

after he stacked the deck in his favor twice.

Huh? He showed players they could take more control over their careers and who they played with when he went to Miami. He should be praised by every star player forever for doing so. And while they had top end talent, that team was uber thin as showed when they couldn't get past Dallas. Dallas could concentrate all efforts on Lebron as they did and Miami didn't have enough to beat a superior team--and make no mistake Dallas was the superior team-- no homer.

Then he went back to Cleveland--to a team bad enough to have just had the #1 pick in the draft for what the 3rd time in the 4 years he was gone? The deck only seemed stacked because Lebron is that good.

Again, the efforts to create a narrative to diminish Lebron is disappointing. I'm sure you don't twist yourself into a pretzel doing the same thing to Steph's winning. (and you shouldn't by the way).

what do you mean, huh? he literally stacked the deck in his favor. he joined the next TWO best players in the conference to monopolize whatever talent was left in a already weak conference.

riddle me this: from 2010-2017, who were the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th best players in the EC in that span? Safe to say Wade, Bosh and Kyrie, right? all three were LeBron's teammates.

it's funny how everybody all the sudden forgets this.

[Texas Chuck]

That's because those who saw both should be able to tell thru the "eye" test. I am over 50, and saw both play since day one. MJ had a fire to him to be the best, whereas LBJ had a fire to him to be the best teammate. With the game on the line MJ would never EVER rely on his teammates to win the game. If he was going to take the blame, he was going to earn the blame. Another thing is, MJ took his teammates and taught them how to win, LBJ needed help from Wade. Nothing to be ashamed of, just the facts.

so those game winning shots from Kerr, Paxson, Wennington etc never happened lol.

The myth of Mike is clearly the GOAT. The actual basketball player might be, but probably isn't.

Wennington? LOL, the only game winner he ever had was a wide open dunk on an assist from MJ in the game that he dropped 55 at MSG against a contending Knicks team, 5 games into his comeback at 32 years of age.

Are facts like that also a part of this "myth"? The only thing more annoying than fanboys are the devil's advocate NBA hipsters who try like hell to "deconstruct the myth" of Jordan when anyone with eyes knows that the guy was a deserved legend.

I think its fair to talk about the myth when people act like Mike was out there winning by himself and never passed the ball in late moments.

It's absurd. And I'm not playing devil's advocate nor am I am an NBA hipster. I'm on record for years that Russell is the GOAT until recently when I have come to believe Lebron has surpassed him.

It's the people who aren't even willing to look at evidence that it's not Mike you should concern yourself with. Because Kareem and Duncan have arguments over Mike as well.

[clyde21]

Weak conference is only an argument if he didn't advance out of it every single year. How do people still not get this most basic of logic? Especially since he was drafted into that conference and made his FA decisions for reasons other than conference which again everyone understands.

You simply can't logically blame him for a weak conference that he has no control over and since he advanced literally every year.....

Man the efforts people go to discredit players they don't like... smh I don't like Lebron either but credit needs to be given.

well, when everyone tries to paint LeBron as a huge underdog all these years, aka "played against historically super stacked teams in the finals"...it's only right to point out that he also played in a historically weak conference after he stacked the deck in his favor twice.

Weak? OK, i disagree, but you can make a legit argument.

Historically weak though? Thats a stretch. The Heat were taken to 7 games twice in the years they won a title. The Cavs had better luck during the LBJ/Kyrie era over those 3 years, though they were pretty heavily injured in 1 of them. Besides that 2015 year and 2018 (without Kyrie) they had 2 cake walks. It's not like thats some crazy, never happened before chit either. I mean the Warriors themselves have had 2 cake walks over the past 4 finals runs.

historically weak conference. indisputably.

Who was the best player that LeBron faced in the EC POs from 2010 - 2017?

[Ontario]

How these threads usually go:

Most everyone who watched MJ play: Jordan is better
Most everyone who didn't watch MJ play: LeBron is better

I watched MJ play and yes Lebron is better.

Depends on your personal definition of what it means to be the greatest, if you are just comparing accolades and career achievements then yeah I could see Jordan being better. If you are simply looking at who is a better basketball player well Lebron can do most of what Jordan could do, and a whole lot of things that Jordan couldn't do so to me the choice becomes obvious.

Lebron can play and defend all five positions at an NBA level. Jordan is definitely a better shooting guard then Lebron would be, but James pretty much takes the cake everywhere else.

[Texas Chuck]

after he stacked the deck in his favor twice.

Huh? He showed players they could take more control over their careers and who they played with when he went to Miami. He should be praised by every star player forever for doing so. And while they had top end talent, that team was uber thin as showed when they couldn't get past Dallas. Dallas could concentrate all efforts on Lebron as they did and Miami didn't have enough to beat a superior team--and make no mistake Dallas was the superior team-- no homer.

Then he went back to Cleveland--to a team bad enough to have just had the #1 pick in the draft for what the 3rd time in the 4 years he was gone? The deck only seemed stacked because Lebron is that good.

Again, the efforts to create a narrative to diminish Lebron is disappointing. I'm sure you don't twist yourself into a pretzel doing the same thing to Steph's winning. (and you shouldn't by the way).

what do you mean, huh? he literally stacked the deck in his favor. he joined the next TWO best players in the conference to monopolize whatever talent was left in a already weak conference.

riddle me this: from 2010-2017, who were the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th best players in the EC in that span? Safe to say Wade, Bosh and Kyrie, right? all three were LeBron's teammates.

it's funny how everybody all the sudden forgets this.

No way was Bosh the 3rd best player in the conference and Lebron wasn't Kyrie and Wade's teammate at the same time. Maybe you forgot?

[Cavsfansince84]

The 73-9 Warriors are definitely Overrated as hell. Great talented team, but all this stuff of how anyone who leads their team over that team is suddenly greatest than every other elite talent who accomplished more against more great squads is just ridiculous.

2011 matters as others have said, so does the 2014 series against the Spurs, and so does 2007 when Bron only made it because the Pistons were no longer had their full line up due to Ben leaving for the Bulls.

I can not wait for this clown Lebron to retire.

If you're going to say stuff like that then you might as well say the 91 Bulls only won their ring because Mahorn got taken in the expansion draft and the Pistons were worn out from 3 straight finals trips.

[mademan]

well, when everyone tries to paint LeBron as a huge underdog all these years, aka "played against historically super stacked teams in the finals"...it's only right to point out that he also played in a historically weak conference after he stacked the deck in his favor twice.

Weak? OK, i disagree, but you can make a legit argument.

Historically weak though? Thats a stretch. The Heat were taken to 7 games twice in the years they won a title. The Cavs had better luck during the LBJ/Kyrie era over those 3 years, though they were pretty heavily injured in 1 of them. Besides that 2015 year and 2018 (without Kyrie) they had 2 cake walks. It's not like thats some crazy, never happened before chit either. I mean the Warriors themselves have had 2 cake walks over the past 4 finals runs.

historically weak conference. indisputably.

Who was the best player that LeBron faced in the EC POs from 2010 - 2017?

So whats the difference between that and the 1990-98 EC? With Jordan and Pippen almost always being the best 2 players on the court against any EC team? Who were the next best players? Reggie Miller? Ewing? 1 year of young Shaq?

I have no problem with people saying that Lebron has been terrorizing a weak east. But these squads and players from the 90's get held up as though they were something special themselves. They werent either.

[clyde21]

Huh? He showed players they could take more control over their careers and who they played with when he went to Miami. He should be praised by every star player forever for doing so. And while they had top end talent, that team was uber thin as showed when they couldn't get past Dallas. Dallas could concentrate all efforts on Lebron as they did and Miami didn't have enough to beat a superior team--and make no mistake Dallas was the superior team-- no homer.

Then he went back to Cleveland--to a team bad enough to have just had the #1 pick in the draft for what the 3rd time in the 4 years he was gone? The deck only seemed stacked because Lebron is that good.

Again, the efforts to create a narrative to diminish Lebron is disappointing. I'm sure you don't twist yourself into a pretzel doing the same thing to Steph's winning. (and you shouldn't by the way).

what do you mean, huh? he literally stacked the deck in his favor. he joined the next TWO best players in the conference to monopolize whatever talent was left in a already weak conference.

riddle me this: from 2010-2017, who were the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th best players in the EC in that span? Safe to say Wade, Bosh and Kyrie, right? all three were LeBron's teammates.

it's funny how everybody all the sudden forgets this.

No way was Bosh the 3rd best player in the conference and Lebron wasn't Kyrie and Wade's teammate at the same time. Maybe you forgot?

no, I didn't forget, he monopolized the talent on two separate ocassions.

then answer me...who was the 2nd best player LeBron faced in the EC all these years? 3rd best?

[10DayContract]

The only thing bigger than Jordan himself is the Myth of Jordan.

I think that's the point though.

Being The GOAT isn't just about production. Ali is The GOAT, he may not be the best boxer ever, but he's The GOAT because of the complete package. People feel something when they think of him. Same with Jordan.

The term "Greatest" is subjective, and means alot to different people. People frankly feel a way about Jordan that they'll never feel about James. That's what The GOAT is. Jordan has the production, accolades, and the emotional aspect. Fair or not, that's the truth. That's why he's The GOAT.

[clyde21]

Weak? OK, i disagree, but you can make a legit argument.

Historically weak though? Thats a stretch. The Heat were taken to 7 games twice in the years they won a title. The Cavs had better luck during the LBJ/Kyrie era over those 3 years, though they were pretty heavily injured in 1 of them. Besides that 2015 year and 2018 (without Kyrie) they had 2 cake walks. It's not like thats some crazy, never happened before chit either. I mean the Warriors themselves have had 2 cake walks over the past 4 finals runs.

historically weak conference. indisputably.

Who was the best player that LeBron faced in the EC POs from 2010 - 2017?

So whats the difference between that and the 1990-98 EC? With Jordan and Pippen almost always being the best 2 players on the court against any EC team? Who were the next best players? Reggie Miller? Ewing? 1 year of young Shaq?

I have no problem with people saying that Lebron has been terrorizing a weak east. But these squads and players from the 90's get held up as though they were something special themselves. They werent either.

i'm not comparing LeBron to Jordan.

i just have a problem with the narrative that he's been this massive fkn underdog all these years.

[DavidSterned]

so those game winning shots from Kerr, Paxson, Wennington etc never happened lol.

The myth of Mike is clearly the GOAT. The actual basketball player might be, but probably isn't.

Wennington? LOL, the only game winner he ever had was a wide open dunk on an assist from MJ in the game that he dropped 55 at MSG against a contending Knicks team, 5 games into his comeback at 32 years of age.

Are facts like that also a part of this "myth"? The only thing more annoying than fanboys are the devil's advocate NBA hipsters who try like hell to "deconstruct the myth" of Jordan when anyone with eyes knows that the guy was a deserved legend.

Take yourself back 6 months ago and see the number of people criticizing Lebron for setting up Hill for an easy game winning layup in game 1 (which resulted in 2 FT's for a +80% free throw shooter).

And that wasnt even Texas Chuck's point. The idea was that even the great Jordan passed it to an open teammate in clutch time.

Yes, of course he did at times. I think the point is that Lebron has been more deferential in his career overall, which is pretty fair and accurate. A game winning dunk from Bill Wennington doesn't change that.

[mademan]

historically weak conference. indisputably.

Who was the best player that LeBron faced in the EC POs from 2010 - 2017?

So whats the difference between that and the 1990-98 EC? With Jordan and Pippen almost always being the best 2 players on the court against any EC team? Who were the next best players? Reggie Miller? Ewing? 1 year of young Shaq?

I have no problem with people saying that Lebron has been terrorizing a weak east. But these squads and players from the 90's get held up as though they were something special themselves. They werent either.

i'm not comparing LeBron to Jordan.

i just have a problem with the narrative that he's been this massive fkn underdog all these years. he monopolized talent in an already weaker conference.

Fair enough.

[mademan]

Wennington? LOL, the only game winner he ever had was a wide open dunk on an assist from MJ in the game that he dropped 55 at MSG against a contending Knicks team, 5 games into his comeback at 32 years of age.

Are facts like that also a part of this "myth"? The only thing more annoying than fanboys are the devil's advocate NBA hipsters who try like hell to "deconstruct the myth" of Jordan when anyone with eyes knows that the guy was a deserved legend.

Take yourself back 6 months ago and see the number of people criticizing Lebron for setting up Hill for an easy game winning layup in game 1 (which resulted in 2 FT's for a +80% free throw shooter).

And that wasnt even Texas Chuck's point. The idea was that even the great Jordan passed it to an open teammate in clutch time.

Yes, of course he did at times. I think the point is that Lebron has been more deferential in his career overall, which is pretty fair and accurate. A game winning dunk from Bill Wennington doesn't change that.

Can you quantify that? Cause i see people say stuff like this all the time. The narrative for a while was that Kobe was clutch and a killer; but the analytical era has shown us that to be false. Do you have anything to back up that Lebron has been more deferential on game winning opportunities?

[DavidSterned]

so those game winning shots from Kerr, Paxson, Wennington etc never happened lol.

The myth of Mike is clearly the GOAT. The actual basketball player might be, but probably isn't.

Wennington? LOL, the only game winner he ever had was a wide open dunk on an assist from MJ in the game that he dropped 55 at MSG against a contending Knicks team, 5 games into his comeback at 32 years of age.

Are facts like that also a part of this "myth"? The only thing more annoying than fanboys are the devil's advocate NBA hipsters who try like hell to "deconstruct the myth" of Jordan when anyone with eyes knows that the guy was a deserved legend.

I think its fair to talk about the myth when people act like Mike was out there winning by himself and never passed the ball in late moments.

It's absurd. And I'm not playing devil's advocate nor am I am an NBA hipster. I'm on record for years that Russell is the GOAT until recently when I have come to believe Lebron has surpassed him.

It's the people who aren't even willing to look at evidence that it's not Mike you should concern yourself with. Because Kareem and Duncan have arguments over Mike as well.

I think it's just that anyone who would think MJ is the 5th best player in NBA history has very little credibility in the debate in most of our eyes.

[GusFring]

The only thing bigger than Jordan himself is the Myth of Jordan.

I think that's the point though.

Being The GOAT isn't just about production. Ali is The GOAT, he may not be the best boxer ever, but he's The GOAT because of the complete package. People feel something when they think of him. Same with Jordan.

The term "Greatest" is subjective, and means alot to different people. People frankly feel a way about Jordan that they'll never feel about James. That's what The GOAT is. Jordan has the production, accolades, and the emotional aspect. Fair or not, that's the truth. That's why he's The GOAT.

Well said. Lebrons game was never pure magic/entertainment like MJs was, I feel bad for young kids that this is their "goat". Lebron boring AF. We see him lose every year in the finals doing 800 layups.

[HEKTOR]

To me, it's not even close. Jordan > Lebron
The fact that Lebron feels the need to come out and self-anoint himself as the GOAT tells me he doesn't believe it himself...