Game 12: Warriors vs Bulls

[oaktownwarriors87]

I think your viewpoint doesn't hold water if you look back at the GSW roster going into last season. It was:

Curry
Dray
Looney
Paschall
Wiggins
Wanamaker
Wiseman
Poole
JTA
Chriss (gone by game 3)
Lee
Bazemore
Mulder

Paschall had limited game and no cred. Wanamaker was a vet who proved to be terrible. JTA had yet to prove he even deserved to be in the league. Poole would be sent down to the G-League to get his shot and head on straight. Lee was a G-league talent playing up. Bazemore was a low IQ journeyman. Mulder was unproven. Are you really going to blame Kerr for playing Oubre and Wiseman given this motley crew? Blame the FO for not gathering more talent, but don't blame Kerr for playing an established NBA player over lightly regarded rookies and g-league talent, or playing Wiseman when 2 games in, it was him or oft-injured Looney.

Absolutely. Most of us were calling for them to be benched early last season. It only took 8 games for this thread to be started:

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2038608

Bazemore, Lee and Looney were all much better than Wiseman and Oubre early in the season. The writing was in the wall right out of the gate. Kerr just stuck to his guns.

yeah...but Bazemore Lee and Looney get you where? Im guessing the coaches are thinking that with that trio and no Wiseman or Oubre, you still don't have much of a season...maybe a 10th place...can't blame them for shooting higher with more physically talented players.
And saying you were for dumping Oubre in the first few weeks is low hanging fruit. He was having his worst shooting spell of his career to start with GSW. He ultimately trended toward the mean, but his terrible offensive start is not what ultimately made him so expendable. It was lack of ability to integrate defensively.

At best 10th place? The Warriors got 9th place, and they were 12-2 without Wiseman and Oubre.

Overall the Warriors were also +11.1 without those two.

+1.1 without Curry (no Wiseman or Oubre)
+16.8 with Curry (no Wiseman or Oubre)

This year the trend continues and they are 11-1 without Wiseman and Oubre.

+3.0 without Curry
+18.1 with Curry

This isn't hindsight. We all saw it less than 10 games into the season. The Warriors had the talent and health to be an elite team last season. Steve Kerr just blew it by making obviously bad decisions, and repeating them over and over and over and over and over....

And its not just that he played them, but it's how he used them. Kerr literally made Stephen Curry the 3rd option so he could get Oubre and Wiseman going. Dumbest **** I've ever seen.

[WarriorGM]

Isn't it obvious? As others have mentioned, GSW had few clear options, and trying to scale up JW quickly as possible to be a functional center appeared like the only path toward competitiveness. In hindsight, they would eventually get a full, healthy and productive season out of Looney, JTA would be surprisingly effective, Lee stepped it up and Poole returned from the G-league to be a solid #2 scorer, all of which led to GSW being competitive by the end of the year. None of that was obvious or even within the wildest dreams of the biggest homer fans early in the season as they gave JW minutes.

In a standard situation that might all make sense. But this wasn't a standard situation. Why? Because you had Curry.

Curry is a partner to some of the most iconic duos in basketball history. Curry-Draymond. Curry-Klay. Curry-KD. Curry pairs beautifully with so many different kinds of players. I said last year that one of the primary tasks of the coaching staff should be identifying the players that work best with Curry so much so that I feel even Smailagic should have been given some minutes with Curry just to be certain there wasn't some magic there. It's one reason why that injury year was such a waste, we didn't see Curry's interaction with all those players that came and went to see if there was a spark. Consider the case of Young Glove if you think I'm pulling your leg.

Again that's why I wasn't against playing Wiseman initially. But when you see that he's not only not playing well with Curry but playing absolutely awful with Curry—something that is rare—you pull the plug. From what I recall JTA showed pretty quickly he deserved to be played. Twice the amount of time it took for JTA to show he was good enough should have been enough time to make a decision on the other players including Wiseman.

But, a lot of what you are going on is speculation that these unproven players (Smailagic? really?) would catch lightening in a bottle playing alongside Curry. That's hope, not a plan.

And just for perspective, through game 20 last year, JTA had 13 Inactive/DNP and was averaging 3.1 pts, 3 rbs, 1.7 assts with a -1.9 bpm on 14 minutes/game. Hardly a resume that says, play me more! In fact, JTA only started getting regular minutes after JW hurt his wrist and was out games 21-31. Even then, through that date, JTA had 12 starts and was putting up meh stats across the board.

After JW returned, he only played in 17 more games, not counting the game he got injured in. Of the first nine games back, he started only one game when both Curry and Green were out. The rest he came off of the bench and he actually played pretty well. The entire team stunk against the Lakers in game 40. Excluding that game, JW was putting up 11.6 pts, 5.4 rpg on 20 min/gm, shooting .618 TS%. he was then out 3 games and returned to a Curry-less GSW and mostly started. Over JW's last 8 games, Curry only played in 4, and Dray missed 2 as well. JW was a warm body starting... and obviously without Curry, or a healthy Curry, GSW started tanking hard...

All of this is to say that your recollection about when JTA started showing promise is faulty, as is your recollection about how many games Kerr was forcing JW to play with Curry.

It's hope tied to a methodical approach.

As you say JTA did not play in many games at the beginning so those games he did not play in are not part of the count. 20 games in the season but did not play in 13 of them says he got 7 games to show up in those first 20 games. If we agree by game 30 he was in then he made his case within 17 games. One could easily tell he was outperforming other players on the team from game 21 on if you looked at his +/- even when the +/- was negative. You could play him big minutes without hopelessly falling behind.

[hamncheese]

One other thing with JTA is that he started last season on a two-way contract so they weren't playing him every game. I forget what the max number of games it was last season.

[a8bil]

Absolutely. Most of us were calling for them to be benched early last season. It only took 8 games for this thread to be started:

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2038608

Bazemore, Lee and Looney were all much better than Wiseman and Oubre early in the season. The writing was in the wall right out of the gate. Kerr just stuck to his guns.

yeah...but Bazemore Lee and Looney get you where? Im guessing the coaches are thinking that with that trio and no Wiseman or Oubre, you still don't have much of a season...maybe a 10th place...can't blame them for shooting higher with more physically talented players.
And saying you were for dumping Oubre in the first few weeks is low hanging fruit. He was having his worst shooting spell of his career to start with GSW. He ultimately trended toward the mean, but his terrible offensive start is not what ultimately made him so expendable. It was lack of ability to integrate defensively.

At best 10th place? The Warriors got 9th place, and they were 12-2 without Wiseman and Oubre.

Overall the Warriors were also +11.1 without those two.

+1.1 without Curry (no Wiseman or Oubre)
+16.8 with Curry (no Wiseman or Oubre)

This year the trend continues and they are 11-1 without Wiseman and Oubre.

+3.0 without Curry
+18.1 with Curry

This isn't hindsight. We all saw it less than 10 games into the season. The Warriors had the talent and health to be an elite team last season. Steve Kerr just blew it by making obviously bad decisions, and repeating them over and over and over and over and over....

Somehow I missed your post last year in January where you were saying "play Curry, Dray, JTA, Looney and Lee....they're elite!"

[a8bil]

One other thing with JTA is that he started last season on a two-way contract so they weren't playing him every game. I forget what the max number of games it was last season.

Exactly...GSW really didn't have more bodies in the beginning of the season, and Oubre and Poole were stinking it up. When JW returned after the wrist injury, he was coming off the bench playing with the second rotation until Curry broke his tailbone. I just don't understand what the complainers expected, other than pushing the fanciful narrative that Kerr should have known right away that the rag-tag group of JTA, Lee, Looney, Curry and Dray could compete at a high level. I feel like its one of those discussions where fans beotch about not taking Kahwi before pick 15 or Jokic in the second round because they "knew" those players would be great.

[oaktownwarriors87]

yeah...but Bazemore Lee and Looney get you where? Im guessing the coaches are thinking that with that trio and no Wiseman or Oubre, you still don't have much of a season...maybe a 10th place...can't blame them for shooting higher with more physically talented players.
And saying you were for dumping Oubre in the first few weeks is low hanging fruit. He was having his worst shooting spell of his career to start with GSW. He ultimately trended toward the mean, but his terrible offensive start is not what ultimately made him so expendable. It was lack of ability to integrate defensively.

At best 10th place? The Warriors got 9th place, and they were 12-2 without Wiseman and Oubre.

Overall the Warriors were also +11.1 without those two.

+1.1 without Curry (no Wiseman or Oubre)
+16.8 with Curry (no Wiseman or Oubre)

This year the trend continues and they are 11-1 without Wiseman and Oubre.

+3.0 without Curry
+18.1 with Curry

This isn't hindsight. We all saw it less than 10 games into the season. The Warriors had the talent and health to be an elite team last season. Steve Kerr just blew it by making obviously bad decisions, and repeating them over and over and over and over and over....

Somehow I missed your post last year in January where you were saying "play Curry, Dray, JTA, Looney and Lee....they're elite!"

You're right, I didn't start my "bench Kelly Mother****ing Oubre" thread until April.

Coxy started his bench/dump Kelly Oubre thread on January 8th.

[a8bil]

At best 10th place? The Warriors got 9th place, and they were 12-2 without Wiseman and Oubre.

Overall the Warriors were also +11.1 without those two.

+1.1 without Curry (no Wiseman or Oubre)
+16.8 with Curry (no Wiseman or Oubre)

This year the trend continues and they are 11-1 without Wiseman and Oubre.

+3.0 without Curry
+18.1 with Curry

This isn't hindsight. We all saw it less than 10 games into the season. The Warriors had the talent and health to be an elite team last season. Steve Kerr just blew it by making obviously bad decisions, and repeating them over and over and over and over and over....

Somehow I missed your post last year in January where you were saying "play Curry, Dray, JTA, Looney and Lee....they're elite!"

You're right, I didn't start my "bench Kelly Mother****ing Oubre" thread until April.

Coxy started his bench/dump Kelly Oubre thread on January 8th.

Almost everyone was saying bench Oubre in January because he couldn't hit the broad side of the barn...he shot ..228% from 3 over the first 20 games -- he was single handedly losing games for GSW. His next 15 games he shot .430 from 3 and the bench KO murmurs receded. Games 38 to 52, he shooting reverted and it became increasingly clear his defense was flashy but ineffective and as a squad, GSW played better with JTA and others on the floor...that stretch pretty much sank his GSW experience.

But this is not about who called for benching whom...this is about recognizing GSW could be a legit playoff contender relying on oft-injured Looney, journeyman JTA, over-achieving Lee and a revitalized Poole...it's only that recognition which could justify benching your $80 million FA acquisition and your 7.0 2nd pick rookie.

[oaktownwarriors87]

Somehow I missed your post last year in January where you were saying "play Curry, Dray, JTA, Looney and Lee....they're elite!"

You're right, I didn't start my "bench Kelly Mother****ing Oubre" thread until April.

Coxy started his bench/dump Kelly Oubre thread on January 8th.

Almost everyone was saying bench Oubre in January because he couldn't hit the broad side of the barn...he shot ..228% from 3 over the first 20 games -- he was single handedly losing games for GSW. His next 15 games he shot .430 from 3 and the bench KO murmurs receded. Games 38 to 52, he shooting reverted and it became increasingly clear his defense was flashy but ineffective and as a squad, GSW played better with JTA and others on the floor...that stretch pretty much sank his GSW experience.

But this is not about who called for benching whom...this is about recognizing GSW could be a legit playoff contender relying on oft-injured Looney, journeyman JTA, over-achieving Lee and a revitalized Poole...it's only that recognition which could justify benching your $80 million FA acquisition and your 7.0 2nd pick rookie.

#2 pick and Kelly Oubre making 17 million. Of course you have to play them. Of course they deserve to be the #1 and #2 option to start evey game. Who cares if you have the best player in the world in their prime!

That's me being sarcastic.

You're revising history. The chatter didn't stop just because he started hitting shots. The guy was a black hole, ball stopper, didn't move and he made idiotic plays. He also played zero team defense.

It wasn't just his shooting.

In that 15 game stretch he was -15.5 without Curry, and Curry was +20.2 without Oubre.

At that point in the season Curry, Oubre and Wiseman together we're -9.3, and without Oubre and Wiseman Curry was +24.3.

We knew damn well that Oubre and Wiseman were trash, and that Curry + Draymond + anyone else would get it done.