Is there a reasonable argument that MJ was actually better at basketball than LeBron?

[reflex35]

Let's give LeQueen all the love for being the second best player in history and stop at that...

[LesGrossman]

People dont understand the LeBron is actively keeping this topic alive. I'm convinced there are paid PR / marketing pro's active on all major boards and media outlets to promote his narrative. No matter how absurd the claims...and the more absurd, and the less reasonable and approachable the creator the more likely they are making it for $, and you have no chance to convince them ever. I wish the board was more moderated at that particular aspect; in other contexts the mods are pretty quick to punish baiting.

[Homer38]

People dont understand the LeBron is actively keeping this topic alive. I'm convinced there are paid PR / marketing pro's active on all major boards and media outlets to promote his narrative. No matter how absurd the claims...and the more absurd, and the less reasonable and approachable the creator the more likely they are making it for $, and you have no chance to convince them ever. I wish the board was more moderated at that particular aspect; in other contexts the mods are pretty quick to punish baiting.

You said that those who think that LBJ is better that Jordan deserve to be punish?

I think that Jordan is still better that LBJ,career wise but this is more worst when I see Kawhi being better that LBJ or Kobe.

[LesGrossman]

People dont understand the LeBron is actively keeping this topic alive. I'm convinced there are paid PR / marketing pro's active on all major boards and media outlets to promote his narrative. No matter how absurd the claims...and the more absurd, and the less reasonable and approachable the creator the more likely they are making it for $, and you have no chance to convince them ever. I wish the board was more moderated at that particular aspect; in other contexts the mods are pretty quick to punish baiting.

You said that those who think that LBJ is better that Jordan deserve to be punish?

I think that Jordan is still better that LBJ,career wise but this is more worst when I see Kawhi being better that LBJ or Kobe.

I think there are threads that are not useful and that are kept alive beyond reason to keep the "legend" going.

I dont think anyone ever said Kawhi has done more careerwise than Bron or Kobe. Please quote a single post on this board saying that Kawhi has overall passed LeBron. What i saw though, and what i personally am totally covinced of, is that Kawhi today is the overall superior player. Recency bias, spinning and the fact that he is the only all-NBA player on the clippers has it that people hate on him and overvalue LeBron.

[Homer38]

People dont understand the LeBron is actively keeping this topic alive. I'm convinced there are paid PR / marketing pro's active on all major boards and media outlets to promote his narrative. No matter how absurd the claims...and the more absurd, and the less reasonable and approachable the creator the more likely they are making it for $, and you have no chance to convince them ever. I wish the board was more moderated at that particular aspect; in other contexts the mods are pretty quick to punish baiting.

You said that those who think that LBJ is better that Jordan deserve to be punish?

I think that Jordan is still better that LBJ,career wise but this is more worst when I see Kawhi being better that LBJ or Kobe.

I think there are threads that are not useful and that are kept alive beyond reason to keep the "legend" going.

I dont think anyone ever said Kawhi has done more careerwise than Bron or Kobe. Please quote a single post on this board saying that Kawhi has overall passed LeBron. What i saw though, and what i personally am totally covinced of, is that Kawhi today is the overall superior player. Recency bias, spinning and the fact that he is the only all-NBA player on the clippers has it that people hate on him and overvalue LeBron.

Maybe not on this board but...

Watch on YouTube

Some think that Kawhi on this board is on pace to be better or is better that prime Kobe which is ridiculous

[Huffman]

How does LeBron force opposing GM's to trade away their best players to the team James plays for?

What examples do you have of James forcing opposing GM's to do that?

Is this a joke? Love and Davis. and he forces the team he is ON to make the trade, not the other GMs.

Hey genius, how did LeBron force T-Wolves GM to trade Love to Cleveland? What threats and ultimatums were givin' to that GM if he didn't trade Love to Cleveland?

It's so funny when I see people say James handpicked teammates or forced trades as if the other team isn't on board, but is being forced to trade against their wishes. Or it's just like the AS draft where LeBron gets to pick whoever he wants. The exaggerations are hilarious when it comes to LeBron.

Get real. He doesn't force other teams to make the deals, he blackmails his team to make the trades.

According to ESPN's Chris Broussard, the Cavs have informed Wiggins that he will not be dealt, while Fox Sports Ohio's Sam Amico was also told that that Wiggins will be staying in Cleveland:

From James: In the letter, he said, “I think I can help Kyrie Irving become one of the best point guards in our league. I think I can help elevate Tristan Thompson and Dion Waiters. And I can’t wait to reunite with Anderson Varejao, one of my favorite teammates.”

One person, however, was noticeably missing from the letter — Wiggins.

Wiggins gets traded.

Also:
https://www.theringer.com/nba/2019/6/15/18680572/lakers-anthony-davis-trade-lebron-james-pelicans

Verrier: For all the hand-wringing and blog posts that Paul and James’s power plays have produced over the years, Team Klutch always seems to get their way. They held out Tristan Thompson until the Cavs overpaid him. They rescued Eric Bledsoe from a Phoenix salon and forced a trade to the Bucks. And now their masterpiece: Four months after blowing up the NBA and the rest of Davis’s and the Pelicans’ 2018-19 season, they finally got the six-time All-Star to the Lakers.

The Triston Thompson contract has hurt Cleveland ever since it was signed and was a major reason they couldn't improve the roster around Lebron and he left them.

[LesGrossman]

You said that those who think that LBJ is better that Jordan deserve to be punish?

I think that Jordan is still better that LBJ,career wise but this is more worst when I see Kawhi being better that LBJ or Kobe.

I think there are threads that are not useful and that are kept alive beyond reason to keep the "legend" going.

I dont think anyone ever said Kawhi has done more careerwise than Bron or Kobe. Please quote a single post on this board saying that Kawhi has overall passed LeBron. What i saw though, and what i personally am totally covinced of, is that Kawhi today is the overall superior player. Recency bias, spinning and the fact that he is the only all-NBA player on the clippers has it that people hate on him and overvalue LeBron.

Maybe not on this board but...

Watch on YouTube

Some think that Kawhi on this board is on pace to be better or is better that prime Kobe which is ridiculous

I dont know why it would be ridiculous to consider he could overall get past LeBron or even Kobe or MJ at some point in his career. He has been an exceptional athlete so far. Why outrule it at this point?

The key is, Kawhi is not getting sold to us. Whatever respect and appreciation he earns is "natural" whereas other athletes that the league chose as their face are being shoved down our collective throats. Most famously of course LeBron for the last 15 years, but also other more visible athletes. But you need to try to keep an unbiased look and Kawhi, KD, Steph have made a huge difference in the last decade, and do not receive the respect they should because they arent marketed.

[kuclas]

I hate these arguments, and don't understand the need for all time rankings because depending on critieria used, you'd have different results.

However, I think LeBron is more skilled, but Jordan had more competitiveness, and dug deeper and his refuse to lose/will to win in big games, and clutch play in just the biggest of moments, was at a much higher level. It was really uncanny how he'd do it.

He also never kept teaming up with ever top 10 players while playing. Pippen was great, but there were a lot of big stars back then.

What do you consider a “skill”

Jump shooting is a skill. Jordan is a better jump shooter. Lebron is a below average free throw shooter. That is a skill. Jordan was 83-85% free throw shooter. Jordan post ups. Way more moves than Lebron who bullies over players. Jordan fade away up and under etc low post.

Jordan played better defense for longer time as well.

Now tell me what type of skill Lebron has over Jordan besides passing? I guess rebounding? Since he’s got 2 inches over Jordan.

So what other skills does Lebron have that’s better than Jordan?

Court vision, passing, 3 pt shooting...I wasn't thinking rebounding, but yeah, I guess that too.

Lol. If you think Lebron is a better 3 point shooter. The years Jordan even attempted 3 or more 3 point shots a year. He shot way better than Lebron has.

Lebron is not a better shooter.

I already said Lebron was a better passer.

So if you think Lebron has better post moves (skill) free throws (skill) , shooting (skills) you obviously haven’t watched MJ played enough

MJ especially young MJ was a lot quicker than Lebron

Lebron is a freight train in open court but MJ was way smoother and quicker.

[Johnny Bball]

How does LeBron force opposing GM's to trade away their best players to the team James plays for?

What examples do you have of James forcing opposing GM's to do that?

Is this a joke? Love and Davis. and he forces the team he is ON to make the trade, not the other GMs.

Hey genius, how did LeBron force T-Wolves GM to trade Love to Cleveland? What threats and ultimatums were givin' to that GM if he didn't trade Love to Cleveland?

It's so funny when I see people say James handpicked teammates or forced trades as if the other team isn't on board, but is being forced to trade against their wishes. Or it's just like the AS draft where LeBron gets to pick whoever he wants. The exaggerations are hilarious when it comes to LeBron.

Hey genius, learn reading comprehension. I don't care what you thought I said.

[Homer38]

I think there are threads that are not useful and that are kept alive beyond reason to keep the "legend" going.

I dont think anyone ever said Kawhi has done more careerwise than Bron or Kobe. Please quote a single post on this board saying that Kawhi has overall passed LeBron. What i saw though, and what i personally am totally covinced of, is that Kawhi today is the overall superior player. Recency bias, spinning and the fact that he is the only all-NBA player on the clippers has it that people hate on him and overvalue LeBron.

Maybe not on this board but...

Watch on YouTube

Some think that Kawhi on this board is on pace to be better or is better that prime Kobe which is ridiculous

I dont know why it would be ridiculous to consider he could overall get past LeBron or even Kobe or MJ at some point in his career. He has been an exceptional athlete so far. Why outrule it at this point?

The key is, Kawhi is not getting sold to us. Whatever respect and appreciation he earns is "natural" whereas other athletes that the league chose as their face are being shoved down our collective throats. Most famously of course LeBron for the last 15 years, but also other more visible athletes. But you need to try to keep an unbiased look and Kawhi, KD, Steph have made a huge difference in the last decade, and do not receive the respect they should because they arent marketed.

Need to make more that 2 first all-nba team in a career....Regular season matter too and very few superstar has the luxury of treating the regular season as a practice

[bwgood77]

What do you consider a “skill”

Jump shooting is a skill. Jordan is a better jump shooter. Lebron is a below average free throw shooter. That is a skill. Jordan was 83-85% free throw shooter. Jordan post ups. Way more moves than Lebron who bullies over players. Jordan fade away up and under etc low post.

Jordan played better defense for longer time as well.

Now tell me what type of skill Lebron has over Jordan besides passing? I guess rebounding? Since he’s got 2 inches over Jordan.

So what other skills does Lebron have that’s better than Jordan?

Court vision, passing, 3 pt shooting...I wasn't thinking rebounding, but yeah, I guess that too.

Lol. If you think Lebron is a better 3 point shooter. The years Jordan even attempted 3 or more 3 point shots a year. He shot way better than Lebron has.

Lebron is not a better shooter.

I already said Lebron was a better passer.

So if you think Lebron has better post moves (skill) free throws (skill) , shooting (skills) you obviously haven’t watched MJ played enough

MJ especially young MJ was a lot quicker than Lebron

Lebron is a freight train in open court but MJ was way smoother and quicker.

Career from 34.4% for LeBron, 32.9% for Jordan. MJ was really good for a couple years after he took a couple years off, then went downhill again. TS% Lebron 58.6% to MJ 56.9%, so LeBron leads here despite the poor FT shooting.

[LesGrossman]

Maybe not on this board but...

Watch on YouTube

Some think that Kawhi on this board is on pace to be better or is better that prime Kobe which is ridiculous

I dont know why it would be ridiculous to consider he could overall get past LeBron or even Kobe or MJ at some point in his career. He has been an exceptional athlete so far. Why outrule it at this point?

The key is, Kawhi is not getting sold to us. Whatever respect and appreciation he earns is "natural" whereas other athletes that the league chose as their face are being shoved down our collective throats. Most famously of course LeBron for the last 15 years, but also other more visible athletes. But you need to try to keep an unbiased look and Kawhi, KD, Steph have made a huge difference in the last decade, and do not receive the respect they should because they arent marketed.

Need to make more that 2 first all-nba team in a career....Regular season matter too and very few superstar has the luxury of treating the regular season as a practice

We will just wait it out. MJ took two seasons off and is still considered the G.O.A.T. by the overwhelming majority of experts, players/coaches and fans. Kawhi can become more respected than Bron for sure, if he manages to succeed without manipulating the league and stacking the deck in his favor. So far he has done exactly that by turning down LeBrons plead to join him. Who cares about load management, if he manages to carry a really mediocre team to a title again? Maybe multiple times? LeBron hasnt done that a single time. Kobe hasnt come close to LeBrons levels of manipulation, either.

And my personal opinion, certainly not very popular: The historical "value" of a player is not measured in number of titles. Personally i believe that what Dirk has achieved in one season is more than LeBron did. Longevity by itself is nothign i hold in high esteem to be honest. If you asked 100 people who are really into the NBA, how many would secretly agree that LeBron has been juiced up all through his career?

What about Dražen Petrović? The new generation of fans dont even know him. Does it really matter more how long one plays than how high he peaks?

As someone else wrote. LeBrons best and greatest skill is and has always been selling himself. He has invested into his "product" and legacy from the very beginning. I remember a very early interview where he was asked about his career goals and he didnt say he wanted to win a certain number of titles, or become the greatst player or best team mate, but he wanted to maximize the lebron james franchise - and he did exactly that. With the help of the league he has established a culture where mostly stats matter; skills, leadership, personality, honesty, integrity, loyality are values his fellowship would preferrably not even mention. He made it acceptable to manipulate and tamper with the league and team construction to an extent that the eastern conference was a joke for several years, and his worshippers continue to celebrate the number of finals appearances nontheless. Despite all the GOAT claims, he has not developed a single young talent into a great player - he prefers to trade them for established talent - where MJ made Pippen and turned Rodman into a servicable piece. LeBron in contrast alienated and traded people in favor of low resistance finger puppets.

[kuclas]

Court vision, passing, 3 pt shooting...I wasn't thinking rebounding, but yeah, I guess that too.

Lol. If you think Lebron is a better 3 point shooter. The years Jordan even attempted 3 or more 3 point shots a year. He shot way better than Lebron has.

Lebron is not a better shooter.

I already said Lebron was a better passer.

So if you think Lebron has better post moves (skill) free throws (skill) , shooting (skills) you obviously haven’t watched MJ played enough

MJ especially young MJ was a lot quicker than Lebron

Lebron is a freight train in open court but MJ was way smoother and quicker.

Career from 34.4% for LeBron, 32.9% for Jordan. MJ was really good for a couple years after he took a couple years off, then went downhill again. TS% Lebron 58.6% to MJ 56.9%, so LeBron leads here despite the poor FT shooting.

You can’t rely on career shooting 3 pointers since Jordan barely attempted 1.5 3 pointers most of
His career.

That’s why you have to look at years he shot 3 or more 3 pointers per game. Low volume 3 point attempts is not indicated of anything. That’s why some guy PER numbers are through the roof with very little minutes played.

Look at years Lebron attempted 3 or more 3 pointers a year (which is almost every year he’s played) vs Jordan’s years with 3 or more.

Jordan is clearly the better outside shooter. If Jordan played today’s game. He would be jacking up 6-8 a game with better efficiency. Free throw shooting is always indicative of 3 point shooting Jordan could shoot. Lebron is marginl/average at best in free throws and 3 point shooting

Granted 1994-1996 nba moved 3 point line closer to international 3 pointers to try to speed up the game.

The game is also much faster. Shot clock resets to 14 instead of 24. 8 second violations. Jordan would absolutely take advantage of all these changes.

Notice Lebron scoring has increased as the games pace has increased.

[Galloisdaman]

People will always say Jordan but I'd take LeBron, LeBron is faster,stronger,and has better court-vision. I was never wowed away by anything Jordan did, LeBron is showtime.

I could not stand Jordan but Jordan "wowed" more people than I have ever seen in basketball.

Jordan is 57. He has been retired 17 years. I would still bet on him coming out of his lazy boy chair making a FT before I would bet on Lebron.

[bwgood77]

Lol. If you think Lebron is a better 3 point shooter. The years Jordan even attempted 3 or more 3 point shots a year. He shot way better than Lebron has.

Lebron is not a better shooter.

I already said Lebron was a better passer.

So if you think Lebron has better post moves (skill) free throws (skill) , shooting (skills) you obviously haven’t watched MJ played enough

MJ especially young MJ was a lot quicker than Lebron

Lebron is a freight train in open court but MJ was way smoother and quicker.

Career from 34.4% for LeBron, 32.9% for Jordan. MJ was really good for a couple years after he took a couple years off, then went downhill again. TS% Lebron 58.6% to MJ 56.9%, so LeBron leads here despite the poor FT shooting.

You can’t rely on career shooting 3 pointers since Jordan barely attempted 1.5 3 pointers most of
His career.

That’s why you have to look at years he shot 3 or more 3 pointers per game. Low volume 3 point attempts is not indicated of anything. That’s why some guy PER numbers are through the roof with very little minutes played.

Look at years Lebron attempted 3 or more 3 pointers a year (which is almost every year he’s played) vs Jordan’s years with 3 or more.

Jordan is clearly the better outside shooter. If Jordan played today’s game. He would be jacking up 6-8 a game with better efficiency. Free throw shooting is always indicative of 3 point shooting Jordan could shoot. Lebron is marginl/average at best in free throws and 3 point shooting

Granted 1994-1996 nba moved 3 point line closer to international 3 pointers to try to speed up the game.

The game is also much faster. Shot clock resets to 14 instead of 24. 8 second violations. Jordan would absolutely take advantage of all these changes.

Notice Lebron scoring has increased as the games pace has increased.

I'm not really into cherry picking stats.

[michaelm]

I think there are threads that are not useful and that are kept alive beyond reason to keep the "legend" going.

I dont think anyone ever said Kawhi has done more careerwise than Bron or Kobe. Please quote a single post on this board saying that Kawhi has overall passed LeBron. What i saw though, and what i personally am totally covinced of, is that Kawhi today is the overall superior player. Recency bias, spinning and the fact that he is the only all-NBA player on the clippers has it that people hate on him and overvalue LeBron.

Maybe not on this board but...

Watch on YouTube

Some think that Kawhi on this board is on pace to be better or is better that prime Kobe which is ridiculous

I dont know why it would be ridiculous to consider he could overall get past LeBron or even Kobe or MJ at some point in his career. He has been an exceptional athlete so far. Why outrule it at this point?

The key is, Kawhi is not getting sold to us. Whatever respect and appreciation he earns is "natural" whereas other athletes that the league chose as their face are being shoved down our collective throats. Most famously of course LeBron for the last 15 years, but also other more visible athletes. But you need to try to keep an unbiased look and Kawhi, KD, Steph have made a huge difference in the last decade, and do not receive the respect they should because they arent marketed.

To be fair I don’t really see how Kawhi can be rated with LeBron at this point in time, having been found wanting in a situation of his own choosing. With a 3rd title maybe, but imo he actually suffered from a touch of the LeBrons at the Clippers this year and had too much say in the construction of their roster, with a player who resembles him and looked like the most talented player available in George being signed with win now intent while the team didn’t have a playmaker of sufficient quality. I don’t think Kawhi needs a LeBron or other superstar level playmaker, just a competent one, but having blamed LeBron for the poor fit of his superteams I have to similarly award some blame to Kawhi for the Clippers roster construction. Both teams he won with had sound balanced rosters not chosen by him.

[Lalouie]

Just the longevity thing alone is a reasonable enough case to be made right off the bat between the two. It's not hard at all to make the case for lebron here.

LeBron could make a better case for himself by bringing another championship to the Lakers - He would be putting the Lakers even with the Celtics for the most titles ever, First title for the Lakers in 10 years and easily sets himself up for a second year straight with Anthony Davis to finish his third year and then decide if the fourth year option is reasonable or simply retire. It would be hard for me to imagine him walking away from 41 million dollars if he adds another title this year

not sure why people put value on these titles like they do. If he plays great basketball, then that helps his case. If he doesn't, then it doesn't help it. Right now he's playing great and yeah he might win this summer league tourney, but win or lose what he's doing should be judged by how he individual plays, not the results of his team as a whole.

be sure cause the players do

[kuclas]

Career from 34.4% for LeBron, 32.9% for Jordan. MJ was really good for a couple years after he took a couple years off, then went downhill again. TS% Lebron 58.6% to MJ 56.9%, so LeBron leads here despite the poor FT shooting.

You can’t rely on career shooting 3 pointers since Jordan barely attempted 1.5 3 pointers most of
His career.

That’s why you have to look at years he shot 3 or more 3 pointers per game. Low volume 3 point attempts is not indicated of anything. That’s why some guy PER numbers are through the roof with very little minutes played.

Look at years Lebron attempted 3 or more 3 pointers a year (which is almost every year he’s played) vs Jordan’s years with 3 or more.

Jordan is clearly the better outside shooter. If Jordan played today’s game. He would be jacking up 6-8 a game with better efficiency. Free throw shooting is always indicative of 3 point shooting Jordan could shoot. Lebron is marginl/average at best in free throws and 3 point shooting

Granted 1994-1996 nba moved 3 point line closer to international 3 pointers to try to speed up the game.

The game is also much faster. Shot clock resets to 14 instead of 24. 8 second violations. Jordan would absolutely take advantage of all these changes.

Notice Lebron scoring has increased as the games pace has increased.

I'm not really into cherry picking stats.

Jordan was better outside shooter. There is no debate. The only skill Lebron is better at is passing. And i agreed on that. Magic Johnson is probably the best passer of all time. But Lebron is right up there

Lebron is great. Top 3-4 of all time. No one is going to go against that. But to say Lebron has better skills than Jordan. No. Passing and due to his size and brute force. Lebron better rebounder and stronger. But skill wise. Jordan has Lebron beat pretty much everywhere else.

[gorz]

Something that I think is worth mentioning is that Jordan led some of the greatest teams in NBA history to championships. He led a 72 win team, 69 win team, and 67 win team to championships. Lebron has never done anything close to that. His teams always either sucked, were average and nothing special for title contender, or underachieved during the regular season. He has only been on 3 60+ win teams in his entire 17 year career and 2 of them he lost before the Finals and the other he was one lucky Ray Allen 3 away from being eliminated in the Finals. Jordan is the goat and his record speaks for itself. No way a team of Michael Jordan, Dwayne Wade and Chris Bosh would only manage to win 54 or 58 games like the Lebron-led Heatles did. Lebron's teams have always been complacent during the regular season and that falls on Lebron himself. Jordan's ultra competitiveness wouldn't stand for that and he would've made sure his teammates would bust their butts. When you consider Jordan's huge edge over Lebron in intangibles and mental toughness, Lebron has no argument.

[LesGrossman]

Maybe not on this board but...

Watch on YouTube

Some think that Kawhi on this board is on pace to be better or is better that prime Kobe which is ridiculous

I dont know why it would be ridiculous to consider he could overall get past LeBron or even Kobe or MJ at some point in his career. He has been an exceptional athlete so far. Why outrule it at this point?

The key is, Kawhi is not getting sold to us. Whatever respect and appreciation he earns is "natural" whereas other athletes that the league chose as their face are being shoved down our collective throats. Most famously of course LeBron for the last 15 years, but also other more visible athletes. But you need to try to keep an unbiased look and Kawhi, KD, Steph have made a huge difference in the last decade, and do not receive the respect they should because they arent marketed.

To be fair I don’t really see how Kawhi can be rated with LeBron at this point in time, having been found wanting in a situation of his own choosing. With a 3rd title maybe, but imo he actually suffered from a touch of the LeBrons at the Clippers this year and had too much say in the construction of their roster, with a player who resembles him and looked like the most talented player available in George being signed with win now intent while the team didn’t have a playmaker of sufficient quality. I don’t think Kawhi needs a LeBron or other superstar level playmaker, just a competent one, but having blamed LeBron for the poor fit of his superteams I have to similarly award some blame to Kawhi for the Clippers roster construction. Both teams he won with had sound balanced rosters not chosen by him.

Yup, i totally agree. Would prefer if players just stayed out of the whole superteam business lebron started, and KD copied. My point was that we cannot rule out at this point that KAwhi will pass LeBron in relevance at some point in the future. Certainly not now.