Poll: Public sees MJ as GOAT

[zimpy27]

No one has ever explained to me how LeBron’s teams basically collapsing without him on the floor makes him better than MJ who acceded to a team game plan/the triangle offense which could function to an extent without him.

That's only a rebuttal to people who use rings as a reason to separate players. They work on the same level.

It's not in itself an objective scoring system to separate players, just like rings aren't

[OhayoKD]

No one has ever explained to me how LeBron’s teams basically collapsing without him on the floor makes him better than MJ who acceded to a team game plan/the triangle offense which could function to an extent without him.

That's only a rebuttal to people who use rings as a reason to separate players. They work on the same level.

It's not in itself an objective scoring system to separate players, just like rings aren't

The point is that Lebron has a plethora of examples of winning more with similar help, or performing comparably with less help and there are even points where he wins more with less. But to establish that, we first need to compare the casts. And the best way to assess a cast is to see how it performs relative to the competition of the time.

Lebron consistently does more or as much with less, so you get a bunch of half-baked theories trying to explain why

[michaelm]

No one has ever explained to me how LeBron’s teams basically collapsing without him on the floor makes him better than MJ who acceded to a team game plan/the triangle offense which could function to an extent without him.

You want us to explain why the 1994 Bulls winning 55 games and pushing the eventual Eastern champs to 7 games with Pete Myers replacing Jordan in the starting lineup makes him better than Lebron? The Bulls were a legitimate championship contender with a replacement level player replacing a GOAT sized hole in the starting lineup. Not sure how details like that is a notch under his belt.

Has it ever occurred to you that MJ having better team mates might have something to do with MJ and his (eventual) accession to a team game plan, which allowed his team mates to develop and/or thrive next to him, while LeBron’s modus operandi since 2010 might have something to do with the quality of his team mates down the track with 3 successive teams ?. Also if the entire game plan is based on LeBron having the ball in his hands is it entirely surprising that his teams function poorly when he isn’t on the floor ?.

Sure LeBron can and has done more with less than anyone else including MJ, and if you are going to have a heliocentric game plan he is the best guy in history on whom to base such a game plan, which is not the same thing as that being the best way to play the team sport of basketball.

[zimpy27]

No one has ever explained to me how LeBron’s teams basically collapsing without him on the floor makes him better than MJ who acceded to a team game plan/the triangle offense which could function to an extent without him.

That's only a rebuttal to people who use rings as a reason to separate players. They work on the same level.

It's not in itself an objective scoring system to separate players, just like rings aren't

The point is that Lebron has a plethora of examples of winning more with similar help, or performing comparably with less help and there are even points where he wins

more

with less. But to establish that, we first need to compare the casts. And the best way to assess a cast is to see how it performs relative to the competition of the time.

Lebron consistently does more or as much with less, so you get a bunch of half-baked theories trying to explain why

That's a team context argument though.. like rings are.
It is about who they had around them that enabled.

I don't typically like those arguments since it's focussing on how good the individual in reference to their squad.

[OhayoKD]

That's only a rebuttal to people who use rings as a reason to separate players. They work on the same level.

It's not in itself an objective scoring system to separate players, just like rings aren't

The point is that Lebron has a plethora of examples of winning more with similar help, or performing comparably with less help and there are even points where he wins

more

with less. But to establish that, we first need to compare the casts. And the best way to assess a cast is to see how it performs relative to the competition of the time.

Lebron consistently does more or as much with less, so you get a bunch of half-baked theories trying to explain why

That's a team context argument though.. like rings are.
It is about who they had around them that enabled.

I don't typically like those arguments since it's focussing on how good the individual in reference to their squad.

Well, the goal is to isolate an individual's value to winning, and while there are various factors to consider, performance-cast analysis is probably the best place to start. In this case, we actually have seen Lebron in a wide variety of contexts, including various suboptimal ones(staggered with a very similar player, playing without shooting in a league where everyone shoots, ect.), and he's mostly mantained his advantage in value, even going into his 30's(where he becomes history's greatest playoff riser).

All that said, there's plenty of strong granular/film break-downs you might find interesting, but the TLDR is that Lebron consistently has a significantly stronger influence/correlation with his team's defenses(and this is consistently true) because he is a much better paint protector. Where we track individual impact data/value signals, or the roster makeup/minuite leaders of the greatest defenses in history, it becomes very obvious that paint deterrence is far and away the most valuable skill for a defender. Pair that with Lebron being a strong man defender, and the guy who generally ochrestrates/play-calls/backseat coaches his team defensively, and you get a big defensive advantage which maps to a sizable overall advantage if you use data which accounts for defensive impact as opposed to juicing the defensive scores of steal-accumulators(Jordan being competitive with Lebron in box-stuff is a function of defensive box-components seeing jordan as a comparable defender while everything else sees lebron clearly ahead throughout his prime)

[michaelm]

The point is that Lebron has a plethora of examples of winning more with similar help, or performing comparably with less help and there are even points where he wins with less. But to establish that, we first need to compare the casts. And the best way to assess a cast is to see how it performs relative to the competition of the time.

Lebron consistently does more or as much with less, so you get a bunch of half-baked theories trying to explain why

That's a team context argument though.. like rings are.
It is about who they had around them that enabled.

I don't typically like those arguments since it's focussing on how good the individual in reference to their squad.

Well, the goal is to isolate an individual's value to winning, and while there are various factors to consider, performance-cast analysis is probably the best place to start. In this case, we actually have seen Lebron in a wide variety of contexts, including various suboptimal ones(staggered with a very similar player, playing without shooting in a league where everyone shoots, ect.), and he's mostly mantained his advantage in value, even going into his 30's(where he becomes history's greatest playoff riser).

All that said, there's plenty of strong granular/film break-downs you might find interesting, but the TLDR is that Lebron consistently has a significantly stronger influence/correlation with his team's defenses(and this is consistently true) because he is a much better paint protector. Where we track individual impact data/value signals, or the roster makeup/minuite leaders of the greatest defenses in history, it becomes very obvious that paint deterrence is far and away the most valuable skill for a defender. Pair that with Lebron being a strong man defender, and the guy who generally ochrestrates/play-calls/backseat coaches his team defensively, and you get a big defensive advantage which maps to a sizable overall advantage if you use data which accounts for defensive impact as opposed to juicing the defensive scores of steal-accumulators(Jordan being competitive with Lebron in box-stuff is a function of defensive box-components seeing jordan as a comparable defender while everything else sees lebron clearly ahead throughout his prime

You have instructed me then. I have always thought the goal in team sports was for the team to win. A team losing is quite often not the fault of an individual player and particularly not the fault of LeBron who has nearly always played great on losing sides, but the aim of the game has not hitherto/before you informed me otherwise been known to me to be to generate statistics in a winning or losing cause to justify a particular individual player.

[MavsDirk41]

The point is that Lebron has a plethora of examples of winning more with similar help, or performing comparably with less help and there are even points where he wins with less. But to establish that, we first need to compare the casts. And the best way to assess a cast is to see how it performs relative to the competition of the time.

Lebron consistently does more or as much with less, so you get a bunch of half-baked theories trying to explain why

That's a team context argument though.. like rings are.
It is about who they had around them that enabled.

I don't typically like those arguments since it's focussing on how good the individual in reference to their squad.

Well, the goal is to isolate an individual's value to winning, and while there are various factors to consider, performance-cast analysis is probably the best place to start. In this case, we actually have seen Lebron in a wide variety of contexts, including various suboptimal ones(staggered with a very similar player, playing without shooting in a league where everyone shoots, ect.), and he's mostly mantained his advantage in value, even going into his 30's(where he becomes history's greatest playoff riser).

All that said, there's plenty of strong granular/film break-downs you might find interesting, but the TLDR is that Lebron consistently has a significantly stronger influence/correlation with his team's defenses(and this is consistently true) because he is a much better paint protector. Where we track individual impact data/value signals, or the roster makeup/minuite leaders of the greatest defenses in history, it becomes very obvious that paint deterrence is far and away the most valuable skill for a defender. Pair that with Lebron being a strong man defender, and the guy who generally ochrestrates/play-calls/backseat coaches his team defensively, and you get a big defensive advantage which maps to a sizable overall advantage if you use data which accounts for defensive impact as opposed to juicing the defensive scores of steal-accumulators(Jordan being competitive with Lebron in box-stuff is a function of defensive box-components seeing jordan as a comparable defender while everything else sees lebron clearly ahead throughout his prime)

“Lets all hold hands and chant Jordan bad, Jordan bad” lol - seriously??? And you expect people to take your takes seriously?? Especially mentioning that James is a better pain protector than Jordan?? Thats an argument for you? First off neither Jordan nor James are/ever were good paint protectors lol. Last year when AD went down the Lakers played James at the 5 and it was a layup line for the opposing team. I dont know where you come up with this stuff man.

[OhayoKD]

That's a team context argument though.. like rings are.
It is about who they had around them that enabled.

I don't typically like those arguments since it's focussing on how good the individual in reference to their squad.

Well, the goal is to isolate an individual's value to winning, and while there are various factors to consider, performance-cast analysis is probably the best place to start. In this case, we actually have seen Lebron in a wide variety of contexts, including various suboptimal ones(staggered with a very similar player, playing without shooting in a league where everyone shoots, ect.), and he's mostly mantained his advantage in value, even going into his 30's(where he becomes history's greatest playoff riser).

All that said, there's plenty of strong granular/film break-downs you might find interesting, but the TLDR is that Lebron consistently has a significantly stronger influence/correlation with his team's defenses(and this is consistently true) because he is a much better paint protector. Where we track individual impact data/value signals, or the roster makeup/minuite leaders of the greatest defenses in history, it becomes very obvious that paint deterrence is far and away the most valuable skill for a defender. Pair that with Lebron being a strong man defender, and the guy who generally ochrestrates/play-calls/backseat coaches his team defensively, and you get a big defensive advantage which maps to a sizable overall advantage if you use data which accounts for defensive impact as opposed to juicing the defensive scores of steal-accumulators(Jordan being competitive with Lebron in box-stuff is a function of defensive box-components seeing jordan as a comparable defender while everything else sees lebron clearly ahead throughout his prime)

Last year when AD went down the Lakers played James at the 5 and it was a layup line for the opposing team. I dont know where you come up with this stuff man.

Yes, Lebron peaked defensively in 2022. Fantastic analysis. Appreciate you noticing my sig though

[MavsDirk41]

Well, the goal is to isolate an individual's value to winning, and while there are various factors to consider, performance-cast analysis is probably the best place to start. In this case, we actually have seen Lebron in a wide variety of contexts, including various suboptimal ones(staggered with a very similar player, playing without shooting in a league where everyone shoots, ect.), and he's mostly mantained his advantage in value, even going into his 30's(where he becomes history's greatest playoff riser).

All that said, there's plenty of strong granular/film break-downs you might find interesting, but the TLDR is that Lebron consistently has a significantly stronger influence/correlation with his team's defenses(and this is consistently true) because he is a much better paint protector. Where we track individual impact data/value signals, or the roster makeup/minuite leaders of the greatest defenses in history, it becomes very obvious that paint deterrence is far and away the most valuable skill for a defender. Pair that with Lebron being a strong man defender, and the guy who generally ochrestrates/play-calls/backseat coaches his team defensively, and you get a big defensive advantage which maps to a sizable overall advantage if you use data which accounts for defensive impact as opposed to juicing the defensive scores of steal-accumulators(Jordan being competitive with Lebron in box-stuff is a function of defensive box-components seeing jordan as a comparable defender while everything else sees lebron clearly ahead throughout his prime)

Last year when AD went down the Lakers played James at the 5 and it was a layup line for the opposing team. I dont know where you come up with this stuff man.

Yes, Lebron peaked defensively in 2022. Fantastic analysis. Appreciate you noticing my sig though

Even old Wizards Jordan competed defensively. I dont think James has put forth effort defensively in 5 years. End of the day Jordan has more all defense selections and a DPOY award in way fewer years. I dont need equations or metrics to figure that out. And no, James and Jordan are not/were not ever good paint protectors. Dont even understand why that was mentioned. Thats like saying Ewing was a better 3 point shooter than Shaq.

[Michael Jackson]

This is to no one specifically, but wh6 is it always MJ versus LBJ? Can not both be loved for different reasons? I get that I might be young and emotionally immature but can’t you guys (my parents) stop fighting? W3 just want dinner and you to show up to out games. Please Mom and Dad stop fighting.

[MavsDirk41]

This is to no one specifically, but wh6 is it always MJ versus LBJ? Can not both be loved for different reasons? I get that I might be young and emotionally immature but can’t you guys (my parents) stop fighting? W3 just want dinner and you to show up to out games. Please Mom and Dad stop fighting.

Why do people have to continually post threads about the goat debate knowing there will never be a consensus and nobody is changing anybodys mind regardless of what they post?

[OhayoKD]

Last year when AD went down the Lakers played James at the 5 and it was a layup line for the opposing team. I dont know where you come up with this stuff man.

Yes, Lebron peaked defensively in 2022. Fantastic analysis. Appreciate you noticing my sig though

Even old Wizards Jordan competed defensively. I dont think James has put forth effort defensively in 5 years. End of the day Jordan has more all defense selections and a DPOY award in way fewer years.

You do realize that "all defense selections" are done by position? Jordan competes with the least valuable defenders while Lebron, depending on the season, is competing with the second most valuable types of defenders or the most valuable types of defenders. A guard getting more defensive selections only really establishes how the compare to positional competition. Lebron also picked up more dpoy votes over 5 years, finishing 2nd twice. Even in MJ-land where reality is less important than perception, Lebron has a strong argument, defensively, or overall.

And no, James and Jordan are not/were not ever good paint protectors

Lebron operated as the primary paint protector for several good defenses, so, yes actually, he is. Again, reality. Heck even in 2020, having extended his career well past the point where Jordan retired, Lebron operated as the main paint protector of the Lakers for stretches when Davis was put on guys who do damage outside.

Thats like saying Ewing was a better 3 point shooter than Shaq.

Shaq is off, his team's offense collapses. Ewing off, not really. Lebron off, his team's defense collapses, Jordan off, not really.

I know reality doesn't always fit with what you're told in MJ-Land, but it is what it is.

[Michael Jackson]

This is to no one specifically, but wh6 is it always MJ versus LBJ? Can not both be loved for different reasons? I get that I might be young and emotionally immature but can’t you guys (my parents) stop fighting? W3 just want dinner and you to show up to out games. Please Mom and Dad stop fighting.

Why do people have to continually post threads about the goat debate knowing there will never be a consensus and nobody is changing anybodys mind regardless of what they post?

Not sure exactly.

[MavsDirk41]

Yes, Lebron peaked defensively in 2022. Fantastic analysis. Appreciate you noticing my sig though

Even old Wizards Jordan competed defensively. I dont think James has put forth effort defensively in 5 years. End of the day Jordan has more all defense selections and a DPOY award in way fewer years.

You do realize that "all defense selections" are done by position? Jordan competes with the least valuable defenders while Lebron, depending on the season, is competing with the second most valuable types of defenders or the most valuable types of defenders. A guard getting more defensive selections only really establishes how the compare to positional competition. Lebron also picked up more dpoy votes over 5 years, finishing 2nd twice. Even in MJ-land where reality is less important than perception, Lebron has a strong argument, defensively, or overall.

And no, James and Jordan are not/were not ever good paint protectors

Lebron operated as the primary paint protector for several good defenses, so, yes actually, he is. Again, reality. Heck even in 2020, having extended his career well past the point where Jordan retired, Lebron operated as the main paint protector of the Lakers for stretches when Davis was put on guys who do damage outside.

Thats like saying Ewing was a better 3 point shooter than Shaq.

Shaq is off, his team's offense collapses. Ewing off, not really. Lebron off, his team's defense collapses, Jordan off, not really.

I know reality doesn't always fit with what you're told in MJ-Land, but it is what it is.

Lol i cant even take you seriously man with the holding hands and jordan bad stuff. Thats great. Also not sure if you know but a survey of current nba players from about 3 years ago had Jordan as goat with 73% of the votes, James got 12% and Kobe got 11%. Keep on tho man.

[twyzted]

Yes, Lebron peaked defensively in 2022. Fantastic analysis. Appreciate you noticing my sig though

Even old Wizards Jordan competed defensively. I dont think James has put forth effort defensively in 5 years. End of the day Jordan has more all defense selections and a DPOY award in way fewer years.

You do realize that "all defense selections" are done by position? Jordan competes with the least valuable defenders while Lebron, depending on the season, is competing with the second most valuable types of defenders or the most valuable types of defenders. A guard getting more defensive selections only really establishes how the compare to positional competition. Lebron also picked up more dpoy votes over 5 years, finishing 2nd twice. Even in MJ-land where reality is less important than perception, Lebron has a strong argument, defensively, or overall.

And no, James and Jordan are not/were not ever good paint protectors

Lebron operated as the primary paint protector for several good defenses, so, yes actually, he is. Again, reality. Heck even in 2020, having extended his career well past the point where Jordan retired, Lebron operated as the main paint protector of the Lakers for stretches when Davis was put on guys who do damage outside.

Thats like saying Ewing was a better 3 point shooter than Shaq.

Shaq is off, his team's offense collapses. Ewing off, not really. Lebron off, his team's defense collapses, Jordan off, not really.

I know reality doesn't always fit with what you're told in MJ-Land, but it is what it is.

[michaelm]

Double.

[michaelm]

Yes, Lebron peaked defensively in 2022. Fantastic analysis. Appreciate you noticing my sig though

Even old Wizards Jordan competed defensively. I dont think James has put forth effort defensively in 5 years. End of the day Jordan has more all defense selections and a DPOY award in way fewer years.

You do realize that "all defense selections" are done by position? Jordan competes with the least valuable defenders while Lebron, depending on the season, is competing with the second most valuable types of defenders or the most valuable types of defenders. A guard getting more defensive selections only really establishes how the compare to positional competition. Lebron also picked up more dpoy votes over 5 years, finishing 2nd twice. Even in MJ-land where reality is less important than perception, Lebron has a strong argument, defensively, or overall.

And no, James and Jordan are not/were not ever good paint protectors

Lebron operated as the primary paint protector for several good defenses, so, yes actually, he is. Again, reality. Heck even in 2020, having extended his career well past the point where Jordan retired, Lebron operated as the main paint protector of the Lakers for stretches when Davis was put on guys who do damage outside.

Thats like saying Ewing was a better 3 point shooter than Shaq.

Shaq is off, his team's offense collapses. Ewing off, not really. Lebron off, his team's defense collapses, Jordan off, not really.

I know reality doesn't always fit with what you're told in MJ-Land, but it is what it is.

Again you are downgrading MJ for (eventually) being a team player around whom great teams were built and who acceded to coaching, including to a game plan which was functional without him having the ball in his hands constantly.

What more exactly did MJ need to do in those 6 finals MVP performances ?. He did everything that was necessary. If LeBron putting up stats is what floats your boat good for you I guess.

They are both all time great players, definitely top 5, probably top 3, and I am willing to admit I may be biased because of my age and following MJ in his time. I have said myself I don’t think it is really possible to compare players across different eras. Whatever case can be made for LeBron, and no doubt a good one can be made, that 2 great teams could be built around Jordan and led by him to the results they had including the 71 win season capped by a title isn’t it. It is rather the opposite Imo, the results came after he recognised the benefits of team play and accepted coaching and a game plan which took the ball out of his hands to a significant degree. If LeBron has not been prepared to do something similar that is very much his problem rather than Jordan’s imo.

The other thing is that while a very great player LeBron is a terrible GM and bears significant responsibility since 2010 for those rosters which haven’t given him enough help, again imo. I have a theory this goes with great talent, I am not sure Jordan is much good at constructing rosters/identifying player talent either, certainly if he is at all hands-on at Charlotte it hasn’t been to great effect. It also seems to be largely journeyman players who make the best coaches as well.

[Gregoire]

Interesting thing I saw with Broussard and Parker:

Seasons where two teammates made the all-star game:

MJ - None
Lebron - 5

Teammates who were top 5 picks in the NBA draft:

MJ- 9
Bron - 34

I knew Bron had more help, just didn't know it was by such a large margin.

Exactly.
There are a large group of Lebron fanboys and reckless supporters at PC board (Heej, houmecourtloss, Lukathegoat, OkayoKD, Myunibrodavis, aenigma, zimpy27, rk2023, frica, falocomandi, lessiskbro ect) -maybe its different accounts for 2-3 users 15years old, but they really goes berserk to exuse Lebron and make him the GOAT even if its more or less obvious that Lebron isn’t one who will suprass MJ s goodness, maybe some other player, but not him, his career nearly over.
This group of supporters investigate their own metrics, try to falsificate plus-minus metrics (some of them claimed that manually counted 500 MJ games only to prove that Lebron is better lol) to make their boy GOAT. Its really ridiculous. PC board once was great place, where Ben Taylor was there, but today it became very toxic place…

Warned for baiting.
- ccs

[prophet_of_rage]

I mean Mike has 6 championships and 5 MVP's. That is some GOAT level achievement that he's done in a competitive era and not when the league was just starting.

If anyone uses the argument how he had an easy road to championships or what a washed up era he was in, well the majority of legends with multiple championships had a quite easy road in some of those years as well.

He was the expansion era not the competitive era.

Sent from my SM-S9080 using RealGM mobile app

[rk2023]

Interesting thing I saw with Broussard and Parker:

Seasons where two teammates made the all-star game:

MJ - None
Lebron - 5

Teammates who were top 5 picks in the NBA draft:

MJ- 9
Bron - 34

I knew Bron had more help, just didn't know it was by such a large margin.

Exactly.
There are a large group of Lebron fanboys and reckless supporters at PC board (Heej, houmecourtloss, Lukathegoat, OkayoKD, Myunibrodavis, aenigma, zimpy27, rk2023, frica, falocomandi, lessiskbro ect) -maybe its different accounts for 2-3 users 15years old, but they really goes berserk to exuse Lebron and make him the GOAT even if its more or less obvious that Lebron isn’t one who will suprass MJ s goodness, maybe some other player, but not him, his career nearly over.
This group of supporters investigate their own metrics, try to falsificate plus-minus metrics (some of them claimed that manually counted 500 MJ games only to prove that Lebron is better lol) to make their boy GOAT. Its really ridiculous. PC board once was great place, where Ben Taylor was there, but today it became very toxic place…

Warned for baiting.
- ccs

I don't think we have ever interacted, not just specific to me - it is quite odd to speak for others on this platform / particular sub-communities & boards on here. If you would like to classify me as a "reckless supporter", go for it if it floats your boat. I support James, as he plays for the basketball team I root for - parallel to other Laker legends of the past 75 years (the 20th century ones I haven't watched, but aspire to study more and more about). A lot of my friends refer to me as the Jerry West and Kareem guru actually, lol..

On the forum, I post my personal opinions and +1 points made: that either resonate with me, I agree with, or non-hostile / non-disingenuous quote exchanges I am in. Just because I have a differing opinion from you doesn't mean you have to be up in arms. If you have a problem with someone, just some advice to either ignore the PC Board or take it up directly... as opposed to name dropping people, and using language such as "nut huggers".